Humanity's quest for knowledge grows..religion dies and science takes over.

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    Dec 17, 2009 1:18 PM GMT
    This morning i awoke to CNN and two major discoveries were announced. The first one involved a planet nearby our solar system. It is twice the size of Earth and it orbits a small star-aka sun. Scientist are implying that it is possible that this planet is not habitable nor have life due to the heat provided by its sun. However i find it kind of strange that if a planet is 80 percent water and is supposedly always in a heat wave, why isn't it a desert instead. Isn't it possible that whatever life it has..would have adapted to its surroundings to survive like we did? Anyways heres the article. http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/12/16/super.earth.discovery/index.html
    The other story surrounds the excavation of a tomb in Old Jerusalem. Within the tomb was a body wrapped in a shroud. They are claiming that this piece of shroud is from the era of Jesus. Research on the Shroud and body indicated that the individual died from the earliest proven case of leprosy in the Old City of Jerusalem. Here is where it gets interesting. According to researchers, the weave of the shroud raises fresh doubts about the Shroud of Turin, which many people believe was used to wrap the body of Jesus. So this new discovery is casting a doubtful shadow on the previous find. It is my belief that with each discovery of something relevant to human history, whether you believed it or not from the start, with the use of science, little by little each one of these facts are being denounced with the help of science. Heres the link. http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/12/16/mideast.ancient.shroud/index.html
    After looking at both scenarios i remembered Friedrich Nietzsche and his article "The Madman" and "Eternal Recurrence", from The Gay Science. In this reading, Nietzsche declares that as humans grow and learn, science will replace faith little by little because what we could not answer before, we now posses ways in finding answers to unanswered questions. So my question to the forum is ,
    How much longer do you think religion will have influence over Humanity? Will it be replaced with Science?
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    Dec 17, 2009 2:45 PM GMT
    Religion and science will violently coexist until mankind is no more.
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    Dec 17, 2009 2:54 PM GMT
    the judeo/christian concept of God (term used loosely) will continue to persist until there is conclusive proof that God doesn't exist.

    keep tracking these two stories. keep us informed of the continued findings
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    Dec 17, 2009 2:57 PM GMT
    Blackguy4you saidthe judeo/christian concept of God (term used loosely) will continue to persist until there is conclusive proof that God doesn't exist.


    Belief in unicorns and leprechauns will persist until there is conclusive proof they don't exist.

    And what proof do you have that Jesus won't one day be considered myth just as Zeus is now?
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    Dec 17, 2009 3:24 PM GMT
    center said
    Blackguy4you saidthe judeo/christian concept of God (term used loosely) will continue to persist until there is conclusive proof that God doesn't exist.


    Belief in unicorns and leprechauns will persist until there is conclusive proof they don't exist.

    And what proof do you have that Jesus won't one day be considered myth just as Zeus is now?


    until such a day that Jesus is considred a myth, we'll hold to him
    i wouldn't hold my breath if i were you though.

    who actually believes in unicorns and leprechauns? my survey of this shows only children up to about the age of 8 -10 at the latest. and atheists.
    now can you say the same about a belief in the divine

  • paradox42

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    Dec 17, 2009 3:50 PM GMT
    Spirituality is a deeply rooted part of our nature that I doubt will ever go away. Belief in some sort of god will always be around, partly because it's not actually possible to logically or scientifically disprove its existence (any more than it's possible to prove its existence).

    ORGANIZED religion, however, which is the real cause of most of the problems that religion brings in our world today, will not be around for much longer. It is very clearly dying, as extremists push others away from organizations into finding their own way (which makes the extremists rail against "godlessness" even more thus making them more extreme, thus pushing still more people away). The pattern is easy to follow if you examine what's happened to the Catholic Church over the past century or so in the most developed nations, and it's far from the only religion this is happening to. Adherence to absolutism and one-true-way-ism simply don't work in the long term, and people are starting to wake up to that fact worldwide.

    The relevant question is, can we who are already beyond it prevent the extremists from blowing up the world and dragging it into a new Dark Age where they hold sway, long enough to force them back into the shadows under rocks forever (where they belong)?
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    Dec 17, 2009 3:56 PM GMT
    If the planet is 80% water it wouldn't be a desert planet, because the water would continually evaporate, reach the atmosphere, and return to the surface in the form of rain.

    Life also wouldn't exist if the conditions of the planet are not favorable to single celled organisms developing and surviving (exempli gratia too hot).
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    Dec 17, 2009 3:56 PM GMT
    Blackguy4you said
    now can you say the same about a belief in the divine


    Certainly! If one is a good boy or girl throughout one's life, Santa, I mean Jesus, will leave a nice afterlife under the tree when one dies.

    For further understanding, click ---> http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/754088/
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    Dec 17, 2009 4:00 PM GMT
    paradox42 saidSpirituality is a deeply rooted part of our nature that I doubt will ever go away. Belief in some sort of god will always be around, partly because it's not actually possible to logically or scientifically disprove its existence (any more than it's possible to prove its existence).

    ORGANIZED religion, however, which is the real cause of most of the problems that religion brings in our world today, will not be around for much longer. It is very clearly dying, as extremists push others away from organizations into finding their own way (which makes the extremists rail against "godlessness" even more thus making them more extreme, thus pushing still more people away). The pattern is easy to follow if you examine what's happened to the Catholic Church over the past century or so in the most developed nations, and it's far from the only religion this is happening to. Adherence to absolutism and one-true-way-ism simply don't work in the long term, and people are starting to wake up to that fact worldwide.

    The relevant question is, can we who are already beyond it prevent the extremists from blowing up the world and dragging it into a new Dark Age where they hold sway, long enough to force them back into the shadows under rocks forever (where they belong)?


    science if left to itself will destroy itself and us all. who gave us nuclear bombs, anthrax, barb wire, zyklon b, the rack, cell phones, brittany spears and the spice girls? it sure wasn't religion.
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    Dec 17, 2009 4:05 PM GMT
    Blackguy4you said
    science if left to itself will destroy itself and us all.


    I guess you don't go to doctors then. You do know medicine is based on science, don't you?

    Blackguy4you said
    who gave us nuclear bombs, anthrax, barb wire, zyklon b, the rack, cell phones, brittany spears and the spice girls? it sure wasn't religion.


    You need to read up on the history of Christianity and how many were slaughtered in the name of your god.
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    Dec 17, 2009 4:06 PM GMT
    tereseus1 saidThis morning i awoke to CNN and two major discoveries were announced. The first one involved a planet nearby our solar system. It is twice the size of Earth and it orbits a small star-aka sun. Scientist are implying that it is possible that this planet is not habitable nor have life due to the heat provided by its sun. However i find it kind of strange that if a planet is 80 percent water and is supposedly always in a heat wave, why isn't it a desert instead. Isn't it possible that whatever life it has..would have adapted to its surroundings to survive like we did? Anyways heres the article. http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/12/16/super.earth.discovery/index.html
    The other story surrounds the excavation of a tomb in Old Jerusalem. Within the tomb was a body wrapped in a shroud. They are claiming that this piece of shroud is from the era of Jesus. Research on the Shroud and body indicated that the individual died from the earliest proven case of leprosy in the Old City of Jerusalem. Here is where it gets interesting. According to researchers, the weave of the shroud raises fresh doubts about the Shroud of Turin, which many people believe was used to wrap the body of Jesus. So this new discovery is casting a doubtful shadow on the previous find. It is my belief that with each discovery of something relevant to human history, whether you believed it or not from the start, with the use of science, little by little each one of these facts are being denounced with the help of science. Heres the link. http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/12/16/mideast.ancient.shroud/index.html
    After looking at both scenarios i remembered Friedrich Nietzsche and his article "The Madman" and "Eternal Recurrence", from The Gay Science. In this reading, Nietzsche declares that as humans grow and learn, science will replace faith little by little because what we could not answer before, we now posses ways in finding answers to unanswered questions. So my question to the forum is ,
    How much longer do you think religion will have influence over Humanity? Will it be replaced with Science?


    While I have no feeling one way or another about the Shroud of Turin, you fail to explain how science has dated the Shroud as old as 2000 yrs. The latest C14 tests have shown the shroud to be as old as 2000 yrs. In view of that fact and the example you give, I would have to say science hasn't denounced anything concerning the Shroud of Turin, yet.
    I would say, however, that you should try and learn a little more about a subject than just a paragraph in an article before jumping to the conclusion that it disproves anything. If I'm not mistaken the article never said anything about proving the Shroud of Turin as a fake. It only said that it "raises fresh doubts about the Shroud of Turin". As far as lending "credible evidence", C14 dating also does the same in the opposite direction.
    As for the question of how long people will beleive in christianity, 4 decades after "God is dead" controversy, a new Gallop survey found that 94% of Americans beleive in God as opposed to only 5% who beleive he doesn't exist. Given this fact I would have to say that as long as there are christians, people will beleive in God. Given the shaky ground that some of todays science seems to be founded upon I don't beleive that science will replace faith anytime soon.
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    Dec 17, 2009 4:11 PM GMT
    center said
    Blackguy4you said
    science if left to itself will destroy itself and us all.


    I guess you don't go to doctors then. You do know medicine is based on science, don't you?

    Blackguy4you said
    who gave us nuclear bombs, anthrax, barb wire, zyklon b, the rack, cell phones, brittany spears and the spice girls? it sure wasn't religion.


    You need to read up on the history of Christianity and how many were slaughtered in the name of your god.


    actually i know my history quite well. they may have been slaughtered in the name of God, but they were slaughtered by implements created by science.

    and the numbers even, so do not come close to those slaughtered by those who did not believe in the divine. not that any slaughtering is good mind you.

    of course we go to doctors, but when doctors have done all they can do, who do people turn to?

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    Dec 17, 2009 4:24 PM GMT
    Blackguy4you said
    and the numbers even, so do not come close to those slaughtered by those who did not believe in the divine.


    Proof? Oh that's right, you only make assertions, but never come forth with proof.

    Blackguy4you said
    of course we go to doctors, but when doctors have done all they can do, who do people turn to?


    Given the bible states all one must do to receive is ask, why don't believers turn to prayer FIRST, before turning to doctors? It's because they damn well know you have a far greater chance of survival if you resort to science first instead of prayer.
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    Dec 17, 2009 4:28 PM GMT
    center said
    Blackguy4you said
    science if left to itself will destroy itself and us all.


    I guess you don't go to doctors then. You do know medicine is based on science, don't you?

    Blackguy4you said
    who gave us nuclear bombs, anthrax, barb wire, zyklon b, the rack, cell phones, brittany spears and the spice girls? it sure wasn't religion.


    You need to read up on the history of Christianity and how many were slaughtered in the name of your god.


    May I suggest you vist your local soup kictens and take notice how many Christians (and others of faith) are called to feed the needy. Also read up on the Abolitionist and Civil-rights movements. You that guy Martin Luther King Jr? Well he was a Christian Minister. Most of the Abolitionist and Civil-rights leaders were people of faith. I have my issues with religion, but there are two sides. Yes religion has been used for great evils; Religion also though leads people to great acts of goodness.
    Personally I really don't care all that much if someone believe in God or not. What I care more about is how does your beliefs lead you to live your life. If you are an atheist - do you take the view "since there is no God I will live for myself and fuck anyone that gets in my way becasue it all dosn't matter in the end anyways". Or are you an Humanist atheist who believes "since there is no God to take care of us it is our job to make this life as good as possible for all"? Same thing goes for Believers: some use their faith for oppression and intolerance. Other Believers are called by their faith to act with kindness and goodness towards all.
    Neither atheist or believers can be painted with one stroke.

    Science is just a tool/method and in of itself can not do much of anything. Science used irresponible is a dangerous tool. If used responsibly science can be used for great things (e.g. medicine).
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    Dec 17, 2009 4:46 PM GMT
    phemt said
    center said
    Most of the Abolitionist and Civil-rights leaders were people of faith.


    Many of the slave owners pointed to bible verses to justify slavery.

    phemt said
    If you are an atheist - do you take the view "since there is no God I will live for myself and fuck anyone that gets in my way becasue it all dosn't matter in the end anyways".


    As if the above is any sort of realistic view of atheists.
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    Dec 17, 2009 4:49 PM GMT
    center said
    phemt said
    center said
    Most of the Abolitionist and Civil-rights leaders were people of faith.


    Many of the slave owners pointed to bible verses to justify slavery.

    phemt said
    If you are an atheist - do you take the view "since there is no God I will live for myself and fuck anyone that gets in my way becasue it all dosn't matter in the end anyways".


    As if the above is any sort of realistic view of atheists. There is very little that can be accomplished in this world without the help of others, which is why any who had the above absurd views wouldn't get very far.
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    Dec 17, 2009 5:11 PM GMT
    center said
    center said
    phemt said
    center said
    Most of the Abolitionist and Civil-rights leaders were people of faith.


    Many of the slave owners pointed to bible verses to justify slavery.

    phemt said
    If you are an atheist - do you take the view "since there is no God I will live for myself and fuck anyone that gets in my way becasue it all dosn't matter in the end anyways".


    As if the above is any sort of realistic view of atheists. There is very little that can be accomplished in this world without the help of others, which is why any who had the above absurd views wouldn't get very far.


    My basic point is that there are good atheists and bad atheists. Just as there are good Christians and Bad Christians.
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    Dec 17, 2009 5:18 PM GMT
    I think this thread needs to be re-titled..

    "..Christianity dies and science takes over"

    Last I heard, Islam is still continuing to grow and expand globally.
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    Dec 17, 2009 5:19 PM GMT
    center said
    center said
    phemt said
    center said
    Most of the Abolitionist and Civil-rights leaders were people of faith.


    Many of the slave owners pointed to bible verses to justify slavery.

    phemt said
    If you are an atheist - do you take the view "since there is no God I will live for myself and fuck anyone that gets in my way becasue it all dosn't matter in the end anyways".


    As if the above is any sort of realistic view of atheists. There is very little that can be accomplished in this world without the help of others, which is why any who had the above absurd views wouldn't get very far.


    Such a person wouldn't be upfront or obvious about his view. A smart egoist would follow the teachings of Machiavelli. Such a person would have no moral basis for his actions though he might appear to act as such. He would try to get away with what ever he could within the time he lived. Think of someome like Bernard Madoff. He made people think he had their best interest at heart while in reality he was doing what was in his best interest and fuck the rest.
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    Dec 17, 2009 7:12 PM GMT
    Hard telling if false belief systems will fade into oblivion. Likely, I think, because of the human condition, some of the weaker-minded, even centuries from now, will have false belief systems. Perhaps man will evolve beyond it, but, I don't know, by virtue of the fact that false belief systems have been around for as long as they have. On the other side, science has exploded with our ability to collect, and analyze data like never before, and false belief systems are even easier than before to disprove (logic aside). Perhaps man will evolve beyond false belief systems but, I don't know. There's a lot of folks who are simply weak-minded, and, their conformance; wishes for some nonsensical explanation to the unknown steers them down the path of fairy tale creatures and the like. The important thing is that the false belief systems be held at bay, and not be allowed to take control of the daily lives of the masses as those false belief systems are the root of most evil and suffering in The World. Sadly, with some folks, due to an indoctrination / brain washing from a young age, and just plain being idiots, some folks will respond to no amount of facts, logic, common sense, or truth. That is what it is, and why false belief systems always constitute a clear and present danger to Man.
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    Dec 17, 2009 7:26 PM GMT
    Science and spirituality are not mutually exclusive and can peaceably coexist. It's well known that many of the world's most brilliant thinkers and physicists were also meta-physicists .
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    Dec 17, 2009 7:27 PM GMT
    What concerns me is what would people be like without religion. Religion serves as a means to control the masses. I am thinking of crimmials that change their ways because of "finding Jesus". If such people didn't have such faith wouldn't they be even worst people? I don't know if the world would be better or worst without religion as a whole. But I know some people "need" religion and without that belief they would be very scary people indeed. I don't think everyone is developed enough to be moral by their own internal standards. A lot of people need the fear of punishment to behave - be it the law or God.
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    Dec 17, 2009 7:30 PM GMT
    tereseus1 said However i find it kind of strange that if a planet is 80 percent water and is supposedly always in a heat wave, why isn't it a desert instead. Isn't it possible that whatever life it has..would have adapted to its surroundings to survive like we did?


    No, just because you have water doesn't mean you can have life, especially if the water is all gaseous, then it's practically useless. Also biochemical kinetics require specific temperatures to be stable, and particularly proteins, which use weak intermolecular forces to stay functioning, would not function under high temperatures. Sure you can adapt to some heat (like thermophiles do), but there's a point where intermolecular forces will be overcome by vibrational forces from high heat and no biological processes can occur, and that happens at a relatively low temp (around 300-373K). It's not an issue of adapting, its an issue of being chemically impossible.
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    Dec 17, 2009 7:32 PM GMT
    People need religion to explain the unexplainable. Science looks for answers to the unexplainable. So the two shoulld just kiss and make up because they need each other.
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    Dec 17, 2009 7:33 PM GMT
    Referring to false belief systems / punitive actions as a deterrent: actually, that's a commonly held misbelief. More punitive measures DO NOT make effective deterrents. It's part of the false belief system. More effective deterrents are treating, say, drug use, as a medical issue, and criminal behavior as a medical issue, as well. There's a been a lot of research done on this, and time, and again, it's been shown that punitive measures really don't work. They only hurt people / lock them up. That's why we have 3 times as many folks in jail as China. That's also why 85% of our folks are in jail for non-violent drug offenses. It's a growth industry, that is highly ineffective at rehab. Contrast that to the stats of Europe and Canada, where things are viewed in a different light, and less punitive, and the truth comes to bear.