Father's passing

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Dec 17, 2009 4:58 PM GMT
    My father recently died. My mother and I were present during his few days stay in the ICU and his eventual passing. I was and continued to be touched by the outpouring of support from people around me. I was touched by people who never even knew my Dad came and offered their prayers and condolences to myself and our family.
    As an atheist it is so tough to think that my father is gone. I don't believe he "has gone home" or "gone to heaven" as I heard so many people say lately. I believe he only exists in the memories of those who knew and loved him. I talked my mother into tissue donation so other's may continue to have their lives made better through his life.
    To my fellow nonbelievers I wonder how do you deal with such a lost? How do you deal with all the "theist/spirituality" talk that others offer which serve as no confromt to you? To the believers out there I wonder if you believe that your loved one is going to "a better place" why all the grief? When I just for a moment suspend my disbelief and think of my father being with his mother and continuing his soul's journey I can only feel great joy. This joy is short lived when my disbelief settles back in though. As good as it might feel to believe that he continues to exist in actual spirit - I must be true to what I believe is true.
  • drypin

    Posts: 1798

    Dec 17, 2009 6:23 PM GMT
    phemt,

    Loss is loss no matter what your beliefs, and the greater the loss the deeper you feel the cut.

    There is little comfort to offer someone who has just experienced such a loss. In general, I accept that well wishers and condolence givers are doing their best to let me know that 1) the person lost has had a tremendous impact on his or her environment and/or the people around him/her and 2) though I may feel alone in my grief, I am not alone in this world.

    Even the spiritual among us grieve when someone we love moves very far away. It's only natural that we grieve when they go beyond our ability to even contact them.

    I don't think it's really necessary to engage people of a different faith or different belief system in a dialogue on something no one knows the true answer to. Simply accept (or privately reject) their condolences and move forward. It's a time for processing the loss within yourself now.
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    Dec 17, 2009 6:54 PM GMT
    drypin saidphemt,

    Loss is loss no matter what your beliefs, and the greater the loss the deeper you feel the cut.

    There is little comfort to offer someone who has just experienced such a loss. In general, I accept that well wishers and condolence givers are doing their best to let me know that 1) the person lost has had a tremendous impact on his or her environment and/or the people around him/her and 2) though I may feel alone in my grief, I am not alone in this world.

    Even the spiritual among us grieve when someone we love moves very far away. It's only natural that we grieve when they go beyond our ability to even contact them.

    I don't think it's really necessary to engage people of a different faith or different belief system in a dialogue on something no one knows the true answer to. Simply accept (or privately reject) their condolences and move forward. It's a time for processing the loss within yourself now.


    Thank you for your thoughts. I did not debate anyone who offered their prayers or condolences. I might have my personal views, but I also understood that wasn't the time or place to go into it. I knew that people were trying their best, in their own way, to offer condolences.
    For me, and this is my selfish desire, I really would had liked to had the ability to deal with this situation on my humanistic terms. My parents retired to SE Texas (I was born and raised in IL). During my father's illness and eventual death I had to deal with it in a totally different cultural context (i.e., Christian) then what would had really offered me comfort. It just would had been nice if I could had honestly had someone to talk with at the time about my honest feelings/thoughts without knowing I would be viewed as the outsider (i.e., non-Christian). I was respectfull of their beliefs, but I doubt my beliefs would had been so honored/respected if they were known at the time.
    Now that I am back home in Chicago and in my element I am able to go thru the griefing process in my own way. I was down there for a week. My mother wanted me to stay longer. I told her I really wanted to go to my church (Unitarian Universalist) and be with my friends. She understood that I was there for her, her family down there (my mother was raised in TX), and her friends, but that I also needed the support of my friends back home.

    Note: Unitarian Universalism is a liberal non-creedal religion. Humanist, Theist, Neo-pagans, and others may be part of an UU congregation. I add this because sometimes people (I think my Grandmother and Mother fall into this catogery) assume that I must be a sort of Christian because I regularly attend a "Church". Sometimes it is just too complex to go into why/how someone with my beliefs goes to "church".
    My family knew I was an atheist since I was a child. I don't think they really get/understand the UU thing; I think they just assume my beliefs must had changed. Anyways icon_wink.gif
  • gymingit

    Posts: 156

    Dec 17, 2009 8:52 PM GMT
    Not everyone believes the same. A lot of cultures celebrate death. Then you have a mixed bunch like the Christian faith. Catholics and purgatory. Baptist with Heaven & Hell. Seventh Day Adventist that doesn't believe in the ever burning hell and I think believes in Sleep rather than death. I know I believe in Sleep. The text that says, the dead in Christ will rise first. I believe it's those in sleep. If they were already in Heaven, why would they have to rise.

    I believe the Jewish faith is Heaven, as the Koran in the Musslim faith, but I'm not sure.

    There was another forum topic on belief. Why does a person believe when we have all of the science saying otherwise. Some believe that it shows there is a higher power and others say they're ignorant for believing. My response was the following:

    Well, I have to say, I Love being Ignorant. I am a very happy well adjusted person that feels the presence of a higher being. I also believe in the free will of men. I don't claim to understand totally and I certainly Do Not believe in man made religion, but I do feel it deep down and if HE isn't present in my life, I'm One Lucky Son of Bitch.

    Thanks, Happy & Wonderfully Glad to be Ignorant.
  • calibro

    Posts: 8888

    Dec 17, 2009 9:21 PM GMT
    As a fellow atheist, I understand where you're coming from, but a disbelief in religion is not the same as having some mindset to fall back on. I mean, from a scientific standpoint, think of all the things that went into play... the evolution of the universe, the formation of the earth, the evolution of species, etc... and then think of all the worldly events. Everything had to happen historically in the right way for you to be here as you are because the slightest change alters the course of life. With that in mind, consider all the ways the world and your life could have turned out, but you got the chance to live a hopefully happy life with your father. I don't think this is some sort of predetermined plan, but out of chaos and randomness evolve some of the most spectacular moments. Treasure the fact that despite the universe just being a place devoid of a higher power something so beautiful and important sprang forth, which was yours and your father's life. I think all that occurring by chance is worth so much more than some deity planning it out. All the best in this time of loss.
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    Dec 25, 2009 2:20 AM GMT
    The grief that beleivers feel is because they miss the person here on earth, but they know their loved one is perfectly happy now and spared from everything that we suffer here yet.
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    Dec 25, 2009 2:46 AM GMT
    phemt,

    i am sorry that you have recently lost your father. that is terrible news and i hope that you are okay.. even thought i don't know you.

    i don't know if there is a good answer to your question. you either face that there other people who have superficial religious platitudes to deliver or you just pass it off.
    when both my dad and mom passed within the immediate family there was very little religious talk. for me the disturbing talk was the religious tone or invocation from people who were just casual acquaintances or just work acquaintances of mine. my initial response was to be curt, but i tried to let that lapse because... being curt was painful for me. it was like i wanted to take something out on other people just because i was in shock and hurting. it was in some ways better to just let go of my own ideology and just listen to other people.
    I can't say it helped, or that it was a relief. but it was better than being prickly.
    i so wanted to pick fights with people over religious points that i felt offensive to me, but i really just didn't want to delve into the pain of losing my dad (and then my mom 3 years later). I tried to remind myself that the people who wanted to console me with talk about some "other place" or that "they are in peace now' were just efforts on the speakers part to console themselves and i have tried to leave it at that.
  • jarhead5536

    Posts: 1348

    Dec 25, 2009 2:48 AM GMT
    My father died two years ago next May. I don't recall whether I told anyone here but it was an awful time. We had a terrible relationship - he never really accepted my gayness and he was an emotionally distant bastard to begin with - but I grieved more than I would have thought. I suppose I mourned for what might have been or should have been more than for what actually was, but the depth of my suffering really surprised me. My mother and brother commented on it in fact at the time of the funeral, and I still today catch myself feeling the loss...
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    Dec 25, 2009 2:49 AM GMT
    gymingit saidNot everyone believes the same. A lot of cultures celebrate death. Then you have a mixed bunch like the Christian faith. Catholics and purgatory. Baptist with Heaven & Hell. Seventh Day Adventist that doesn't believe in the ever burning hell and I think believes in Sleep rather than death. I know I believe in Sleep. The text that says, the dead in Christ will rise first. I believe it's those in sleep. If they were already in Heaven, why would they have to rise.

    I believe the Jewish faith is Heaven, as the Koran in the Musslim faith, but I'm not sure.

    There was another forum topic on belief. Why does a person believe when we have all of the science saying otherwise. Some believe that it shows there is a higher power and others say they're ignorant for believing. My response was the following:

    Well, I have to say, I Love being Ignorant. I am a very happy well adjusted person that feels the presence of a higher being. I also believe in the free will of men. I don't claim to understand totally and I certainly Do Not believe in man made religion, but I do feel it deep down and if HE isn't present in my life, I'm One Lucky Son of Bitch.

    Thanks, Happy & Wonderfully Glad to be Ignorant.


    "If they were already in Heaven, why would they have to rise"

    According to biblical teaching, only the spirit or soul of the person is in heaven at death. According to biblical teachings, the soul separates from the body at death. The body of the person is layed to rest in the ground. So on the day of resurrection, the body is made alive again and reunited with the soul. But the body is changed from what it was like here on earth. It is made into a perfect sprirtual body that is fit for life in the new heaven and new earth that will not have any evil or sin. Job says with his own eyes he will see Christ. On the day of resurrection the body is made a perfect spiritual body and is no longer affected by sin as it is here on earth and it is no longer subject to any handicap, suffering, pain, diseases or even death itself. Christ makes the body perfect and immortal, fit for eternal life with him. Our bodies will become just like Christ's glorious body after his own bodily resurrection. Jesus himself beleived in both the body and the spirit of a person because he said, "Father, into your hands I committ my spirit," when he died.." At death his spirit went back to be with his Father and then his body rose to be reunited with his spirit.. A Christian believes that only the body dies, not the spirit because the Bible says that the spirit returns to God who created our spirit. We beleive that we are spiritual beings with a human body and that only our bodies die at death and our spirit returns to God who made our spirit.
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    Dec 25, 2009 2:51 AM GMT
    Knowing that we are ALL the same as humans with the same capacity to feel anything, I would take comfort in that. If GOD is a psychological construct (whether real or not) so is our "interpretation" of what another person is. All that you can leave anyone (short of material things) is a lasting impression and memories of things you have shared.

    When someone dies, you have as much capacity to love them as when they were alive. I truly believe a person "lives" after they dies in our minds and the minds of others.

    My brother died many years ago as a young man .. our life together was interrupted and I felt deprived of what "could have been" At some point I realized that he was still just as real to me based on everything we shared, even though he was dead. So in my mind I would talk to him, hug him, and told him he could stay with me as long as he wanted even though he was physically gone. I had dreams about him which I thought is the minds way of transitioning him to a non-physical existence.

    I also recently lost a very dear ex-boyfriend. It was a very "sharp" sorrow. As it was a suicide, I felt his pain. But again I embraced him in my mind, and comfort him and find in doing so I comfort myself. It is kind of a personal sacred ceremony I have now. Embrace and absorb .. taking the other persons "soul" into myself. I hold their nonphysical existence in my mind as real as any material friendship I have. My mind works out the rest as it goes about it's daily chatter.

    We ARE the love we have for all those we know.
  • jarhead5536

    Posts: 1348

    Dec 25, 2009 2:54 AM GMT
    I don't want to neglect to say this: many if not most gay men have difficult relationships with their fathers. I know that you are reeling from this loss, yet I imagine that there are some conflicted emotions there also. The death of my own father represented a more devastating blow than I would have thought, since we really weren't speaking anymore (he had long ago consigned me to the flames), but I do understand your grief and am giving you big hugs across cyberspace. I tell myself this and it gives me peace - he loved me as best as he was able, given the circumstances and geography of his upbringing...
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    Dec 25, 2009 2:59 AM GMT
    phemt said
    drypin saidphemt,

    Loss is loss no matter what your beliefs, and the greater the loss the deeper you feel the cut.

    There is little comfort to offer someone who has just experienced such a loss. In general, I accept that well wishers and condolence givers are doing their best to let me know that 1) the person lost has had a tremendous impact on his or her environment and/or the people around him/her and 2) though I may feel alone in my grief, I am not alone in this world.

    Even the spiritual among us grieve when someone we love moves very far away. It's only natural that we grieve when they go beyond our ability to even contact them.

    I don't think it's really necessary to engage people of a different faith or different belief system in a dialogue on something no one knows the true answer to. Simply accept (or privately reject) their condolences and move forward. It's a time for processing the loss within yourself now.


    Thank you for your thoughts. I did not debate anyone who offered their prayers or condolences. I might have my personal views, but I also understood that wasn't the time or place to go into it. I knew that people were trying their best, in their own way, to offer condolences.
    For me, and this is my selfish desire, I really would had liked to had the ability to deal with this situation on my humanistic terms. My parents retired to SE Texas (I was born and raised in IL). During my father's illness and eventual death I had to deal with it in a totally different cultural context (i.e., Christian) then what would had really offered me comfort. It just would had been nice if I could had honestly had someone to talk with at the time about my honest feelings/thoughts without knowing I would be viewed as the outsider (i.e., non-Christian). I was respectfull of their beliefs, but I doubt my beliefs would had been so honored/respected if they were known at the time.
    Now that I am back home in Chicago and in my element I am able to go thru the griefing process in my own way. I was down there for a week. My mother wanted me to stay longer. I told her I really wanted to go to my church (Unitarian Universalist) and be with my friends. She understood that I was there for her, her family down there (my mother was raised in TX), and her friends, but that I also needed the support of my friends back home.

    Note: Unitarian Universalism is a liberal non-creedal religion. Humanist, Theist, Neo-pagans, and others may be part of an UU congregation. I add this because sometimes people (I think my Grandmother and Mother fall into this catogery) assume that I must be a sort of Christian because I regularly attend a "Church". Sometimes it is just too complex to go into why/how someone with my beliefs goes to "church".
    My family knew I was an atheist since I was a child. I don't think they really get/understand the UU thing; I think they just assume my beliefs must had changed. Anyways icon_wink.gif


    I guess I would like to know more about what you do at church, since obviously as an atheisit, you are not worshiping any God like Christians do.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Dec 25, 2009 3:19 AM GMT
    phemt saidMy father recently died. My mother and I were present during his few days stay in the ICU and his eventual passing. I was and continued to be touched by the outpouring of support from people around me. I was touched by people who never even knew my Dad came and offered their prayers and condolences to myself and our family.
    As an atheist it is so tough to think that my father is gone. I don't believe he "has gone home" or "gone to heaven" as I heard so many people say lately. I believe he only exists in the memories of those who knew and loved him. I talked my mother into tissue donation so other's may continue to have their lives made better through his life.
    To my fellow nonbelievers I wonder how do you deal with such a lost? How do you deal with all the "theist/spirituality" talk that others offer which serve as no confromt to you? To the believers out there I wonder if you believe that your loved one is going to "a better place" why all the grief? When I just for a moment suspend my disbelief and think of my father being with his mother and continuing his soul's journey I can only feel great joy. This joy is short lived when my disbelief settles back in though. As good as it might feel to believe that he continues to exist in actual spirit - I must be true to what I believe is true.


    Wow, what an amazing and thoughtful post. I'm not sure what to think about heaven. My mom passed away on May 28, 2008, and I still cannot believe it. I try to make sure I can keep the sound of her voice in my head, and if I need a little remembrance, I have one small video that I took of her in 2006 when we came back from going out to eat one day.

    The last conversation I had with my mom, two weeks before she passed, was that I was working on a book. Having listened to me about working on my last film for five years, she responded "Oh god, now I have to hear about your book." My entire family has never been supportive of each other. When I made my nature film, my mom told me it was all pretty and all, but it will never go anywhere. One year later it was on PBS. I gave her and my sister copies of it for Easter gifts.

    I don't feel the stress of my mother anymore, and I am glad that part is gone. She really did have a loving heart, especially when I was growing up. But as she got older, man, it was not pleasant. She had a tough tough life.

    I started writing stories of my growing up and our dysfunctional family afterward, to make sure I got the good and the bad. That helped me get through much of her death. I think I also bought another small camcorder to play with. You know, boys and their toys.

    I am not sure I grieved thoroughly, though I did have an outburst of crying in my car two days after she died when we were clearing out her apartment and I was running to get some subs for my sister and brother-in-law.

    I used to tell my mother that I hated her ceramic cherubs, and she told me she liked them. I made a point of grabbing them when we cleared things out. Since then they have sat on the top ledge divider between my kitchen and living room. Not easily recognizable, but there if I want to look up at them.

    When someone dies, and all you have is memories and pictures, it's so surreal. Like did you imagine them? Of course you didn't, they really WERE here. I think that's what makes losing someone so painful, the never again part. Never being able to see them again.

    I like to think that if we cannot fully explain the beginning of time, or life, for sure, that we can't leave out God or whatever. It's also nice to think that someone is up there whose got your back.

    I used to tell God that if you want people to truly believe in you, then make an appearance more often. Like, "yo, I'm up here. It's true. Now be good to each other."

    If a belief helps us get through tough times, then we should believe.
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    Dec 25, 2009 3:35 AM GMT
    My grandmother snuck away in the middle of the night about a year or so ago after a rebound in her otherwise poor health. It was quite a shock that this woman I had known all my life could be gone without any real transition or last words, or without my being present for it somehow.

    At first, I went through the instant regrets...being impatient with her as she aged, not coming to see her the two days before, and I was haunted by whether or not I had shown her pictures of the whales in Cape Cod over the summer (I was on a ship that was doing tagging). Then came the moments where I wanted to call her, only to realize she wasn't there.

    But what helped me most, and still does, was the knowledge that she isn't in pain or suffering anymore. Even if the end for us all is like a light switching off, I can take great comfort in that. She had it rough for a while.

    The other thing I take comfort in was a bit of wisdom from my younger brother: she lived a fantastic life, filled with happy moments, loving family, and a million little triumphs. It makes sense, in that light, to celebrate a life well lived rather than the passing of loved on.

    What small comfort it may give, you have my condolences, but remember your father as the vibrant man I'm sure he was. Celebrate his life. It will do him more justice than mourning his death, and you will undoubtedly find comfort there.
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    Dec 25, 2009 3:35 AM GMT
    Thanks for every one's thoughts.
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    Dec 25, 2009 3:38 AM GMT
    G_Force said
    phemt said
    drypin saidphemt,

    Loss is loss no matter what your beliefs, and the greater the loss the deeper you feel the cut.

    There is little comfort to offer someone who has just experienced such a loss. In general, I accept that well wishers and condolence givers are doing their best to let me know that 1) the person lost has had a tremendous impact on his or her environment and/or the people around him/her and 2) though I may feel alone in my grief, I am not alone in this world.

    Even the spiritual among us grieve when someone we love moves very far away. It's only natural that we grieve when they go beyond our ability to even contact them.

    I don't think it's really necessary to engage people of a different faith or different belief system in a dialogue on something no one knows the true answer to. Simply accept (or privately reject) their condolences and move forward. It's a time for processing the loss within yourself now.


    Thank you for your thoughts. I did not debate anyone who offered their prayers or condolences. I might have my personal views, but I also understood that wasn't the time or place to go into it. I knew that people were trying their best, in their own way, to offer condolences.
    For me, and this is my selfish desire, I really would had liked to had the ability to deal with this situation on my humanistic terms. My parents retired to SE Texas (I was born and raised in IL). During my father's illness and eventual death I had to deal with it in a totally different cultural context (i.e., Christian) then what would had really offered me comfort. It just would had been nice if I could had honestly had someone to talk with at the time about my honest feelings/thoughts without knowing I would be viewed as the outsider (i.e., non-Christian). I was respectfull of their beliefs, but I doubt my beliefs would had been so honored/respected if they were known at the time.
    Now that I am back home in Chicago and in my element I am able to go thru the griefing process in my own way. I was down there for a week. My mother wanted me to stay longer. I told her I really wanted to go to my church (Unitarian Universalist) and be with my friends. She understood that I was there for her, her family down there (my mother was raised in TX), and her friends, but that I also needed the support of my friends back home.

    Note: Unitarian Universalism is a liberal non-creedal religion. Humanist, Theist, Neo-pagans, and others may be part of an UU congregation. I add this because sometimes people (I think my Grandmother and Mother fall into this catogery) assume that I must be a sort of Christian because I regularly attend a "Church". Sometimes it is just too complex to go into why/how someone with my beliefs goes to "church".
    My family knew I was an atheist since I was a child. I don't think they really get/understand the UU thing; I think they just assume my beliefs must had changed. Anyways icon_wink.gif


    I guess I would like to know more about what you do at church, since obviously as an atheisit, you are not worshiping any God like Christians do.


    We focus on our common values. We focus how we can make the world a better place, helping the needy etc.

    If you are really interested:

    http://www.uua.org/


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    Dec 25, 2009 3:46 AM GMT
    jarhead5536 saidI don't want to neglect to say this: many if not most gay men have difficult relationships with their fathers. I know that you are reeling from this loss, yet I imagine that there are some conflicted emotions there also. The death of my own father represented a more devastating blow than I would have thought, since we really weren't speaking anymore (he had long ago consigned me to the flames), but I do understand your grief and am giving you big hugs across cyberspace. I tell myself this and it gives me peace - he loved me as best as he was able, given the circumstances and geography of his upbringing...


    I was actually blessed to have a father (and mother for that matter) that always accepted and loved me as I am.
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    Dec 25, 2009 3:55 AM GMT
    G_Force saidI guess I would like to know more about what you do at church, since obviously as an atheisit, you are not worshiping any God like Christians do.
    I have to be honest, when I hear people say they are worshiping GOD, to me they are really worshiping their idea of GOD .. on the other hand, from a Taoist perspective, I am sometimes surprised at the insight of a TV show ..

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    Dec 25, 2009 3:58 AM GMT
    phemt said
    G_Force said
    phemt said
    drypin saidphemt,

    Loss is loss no matter what your beliefs, and the greater the loss the deeper you feel the cut.

    There is little comfort to offer someone who has just experienced such a loss. In general, I accept that well wishers and condolence givers are doing their best to let me know that 1) the person lost has had a tremendous impact on his or her environment and/or the people around him/her and 2) though I may feel alone in my grief, I am not alone in this world.

    Even the spiritual among us grieve when someone we love moves very far away. It's only natural that we grieve when they go beyond our ability to even contact them.

    I don't think it's really necessary to engage people of a different faith or different belief system in a dialogue on something no one knows the true answer to. Simply accept (or privately reject) their condolences and move forward. It's a time for processing the loss within yourself now.


    Thank you for your thoughts. I did not debate anyone who offered their prayers or condolences. I might have my personal views, but I also understood that wasn't the time or place to go into it. I knew that people were trying their best, in their own way, to offer condolences.
    For me, and this is my selfish desire, I really would had liked to had the ability to deal with this situation on my humanistic terms. My parents retired to SE Texas (I was born and raised in IL). During my father's illness and eventual death I had to deal with it in a totally different cultural context (i.e., Christian) then what would had really offered me comfort. It just would had been nice if I could had honestly had someone to talk with at the time about my honest feelings/thoughts without knowing I would be viewed as the outsider (i.e., non-Christian). I was respectfull of their beliefs, but I doubt my beliefs would had been so honored/respected if they were known at the time.
    Now that I am back home in Chicago and in my element I am able to go thru the griefing process in my own way. I was down there for a week. My mother wanted me to stay longer. I told her I really wanted to go to my church (Unitarian Universalist) and be with my friends. She understood that I was there for her, her family down there (my mother was raised in TX), and her friends, but that I also needed the support of my friends back home.

    Note: Unitarian Universalism is a liberal non-creedal religion. Humanist, Theist, Neo-pagans, and others may be part of an UU congregation. I add this because sometimes people (I think my Grandmother and Mother fall into this catogery) assume that I must be a sort of Christian because I regularly attend a "Church". Sometimes it is just too complex to go into why/how someone with my beliefs goes to "church".
    My family knew I was an atheist since I was a child. I don't think they really get/understand the UU thing; I think they just assume my beliefs must had changed. Anyways icon_wink.gif


    I guess I would like to know more about what you do at church, since obviously as an atheisit, you are not worshiping any God like Christians do.


    We focus on our common values. We focus how we can make the world a better place, helping the needy etc.

    If you are really interested:

    www.uua.org




    ok, thanks for the link. but why don't you just organize as a secular organization, instead of as a "church" since you don't really have any religious beliefs? isn't calling yourself a "church" being a little deceptive, since you don't have religious beliefs but are organized as a secular organization to help people?
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    Dec 25, 2009 4:07 AM GMT
    ActiveAndFit said
    G_Force saidI guess I would like to know more about what you do at church, since obviously as an atheisit, you are not worshiping any God like Christians do.
    I have to be honest, when I hear people say they are worshiping GOD, to me they are really worshiping their idea of GOD .. on the other hand, from a Taoist perspective, I am sometimes surprised at the insight of a TV show ..



    No, as a Christian I am not just worshipping the "idea" of God. I truly beleive there is a real God and that Christ is real and not just an idea in people's head. We truly beleive that Christ is real, living, and breathing and is here with us, but at this time has not chosen to reveal his bodily visible presence yet, but will reveal his bodily presence on the last day.
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    Dec 25, 2009 4:07 AM GMT
    G_Force saidok, thanks for the link. but why don't you just organize as a secular organization, instead of as a "church" since you don't really have any religious beliefs? isn't calling yourself a "church" being a little deceptive, since you don't have religious beliefs but are organized as a secular organization to help people?
    I am getting the feeling this is the same kind of thinking as "You cannot have that word marriage .. it would be deceptive to say you are married when you are a man and a man .. a man and a man are not good enough for the word marriage"
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    Dec 25, 2009 4:12 AM GMT
    G_Force saidNo, as a Christian I am not just worshipping the "idea" of God. I truly beleive there is a real God and that Christ is real and not just an idea in people's head. We truly beleive that Christ is real, living, and breathing and is here with us, but at this time has not chosen to reveal his bodily visible presence yet, but will reveal his bodily presence on the last day.
    You can only worship what you know, and you can only know what you know .. your thoughts. SO yes, you are worshiping your idea of GOD. Belief no matter what it is about is also "in your head". That does not make you any less or anymore than anyone else, but it makes you just the same.
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    Dec 25, 2009 4:13 AM GMT
    phemt said
    jarhead5536 saidI don't want to neglect to say this: many if not most gay men have difficult relationships with their fathers. I know that you are reeling from this loss, yet I imagine that there are some conflicted emotions there also. The death of my own father represented a more devastating blow than I would have thought, since we really weren't speaking anymore (he had long ago consigned me to the flames), but I do understand your grief and am giving you big hugs across cyberspace. I tell myself this and it gives me peace - he loved me as best as he was able, given the circumstances and geography of his upbringing...


    I was actually blessed to have a father (and mother for that matter) that always accepted and loved me as I am.


    You had great parents and my parents accept us kids as we are, too. They would never think of abandoning any of us kids for any reason and I would never abandon my own daughter either for any reason. To abandon your kids for any reason is sin and condemned by God in the Bible.
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    Dec 25, 2009 4:18 AM GMT
    ActiveAndFit said
    G_Force saidNo, as a Christian I am not just worshipping the "idea" of God. I truly beleive there is a real God and that Christ is real and not just an idea in people's head. We truly beleive that Christ is real, living, and breathing and is here with us, but at this time has not chosen to reveal his bodily visible presence yet, but will reveal his bodily presence on the last day.
    You can only worship what you know, and you can only know what you know .. your thoughts. SO yes, you are worshiping your idea of GOD. Belief no matter what it is about is also "in your head". That does not make you any less or anymore than anyone else, but it makes you just the same.


    No, I am not just worshipping an idea. I have a real personal relationship with him as a real person. He talks to me with his Word in the Bible and I talk to him in prayer.
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    Dec 25, 2009 4:26 AM GMT
    I truly beleive that when I read the Bible, this is God's love letter to me and all people, even though he used his prophets and apostles to pen the words he wanted all people to know.