A question about HEAVEN.

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    Dec 19, 2009 7:18 PM GMT

    I'm peeved, of course, big surprise right. While I don't particularly like or understand GAY Christians, I'd like them to exercise their compassion and disregard my disdain for them and answer questions I have about heaven.

    How exactly is heaven supposed to be?

    I think I recall there is to be no pain, no sin, no suffering, and no death, but do you think there will be government? Do you think there will be laws? Do you think you'll have free will?

    Because man is not totally without sin, will the ability to sin be...taken away?

    Since it is a fact that your body will die...do you think you'll still have one or will you be a spirit or a ray of light or something? If you are, that explains the inability to sin. Hard to lust if you can't see. Be greedy if you can't spend, rage if you don't have feelings, glutton if you don't have a body, envy if you can't think, sloth if you don't want anything, or be very proud without free will.

    What are you going to do up there? Just exist?

    If I'm wrong and you regain your body. What of waste? What of common bodily functions that are beneath heavenly standards I would think, like farting? Will everyone have the same or will some have more? Will some "people" even be poor?

    I know I am thinking like a human, but it's all I can do. Still, when you think of everlasting life, do you not think of wealth, congregation with people you view as friends, sex, clothes, things you desire, possessions?

    Judging from the humble origins of The Savior when he came to Earth, no pomp and circumstance, no gold, no jewels....do you really have an expectation of streets paved with gold (a way I think heaven is described in the bible)?

    Besides avoiding the shame and fiery torment of HELL, what do you really expect to gain in heaven?




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    Dec 19, 2009 7:25 PM GMT
    Another stupid topic to talk about. Does anyone want to message me and we can have a topic about real stuff like how to set up scams to make money.
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    Dec 19, 2009 9:49 PM GMT
    OK GuiltyGear, before others come here with tiny narrow heavens to present you with..I look at this this way..it's very likely the next step up, if you like. Our bodies are cast aside, so forget that kind of stuff, more likely your mind determining any physical sensations.

    Will god be there, too? Sure, why not? It could also be that god's only more apparent rather than some old uncircumcised guy with a beard sitting in a chair.

    Another take on this is Unicorn Mountain by Michael Bishop http://www.sondheimguide.com/bishop/novels/unicorn.htm


    Really though, I think you're wanting to hear from the bible literalists, aren't you? lol.

    I've tried to explain what I feel could be the next life in a series of tales - some here have read them, and I'd be happy to share them with you.

    -Doug
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    Dec 19, 2009 10:15 PM GMT
    jockmania saidAnother stupid topic to talk about. Does anyone want to message me and we can have a topic about real stuff like how to set up scams to make money.


    Follow the L. Ron Hubbard model. Invent a religion.
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    Dec 19, 2009 10:35 PM GMT
    There is an interesting thing about the word heaven according to early christian beliefs .. there are at least three of them now (the third one being where god dwells also called eternity) .. and the old one will pass away and god's dwelling will be with men (or whatever they are after a resurrection) icon_eek.gif it is very sci-fi in some ways

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    Dec 19, 2009 10:42 PM GMT
    Belinda Carlisle said Heaven is a place on earth........
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    Dec 19, 2009 10:49 PM GMT
    Here are three heavens I like .. icon_lol.gif







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    Dec 19, 2009 10:58 PM GMT
    Pattison said
    ActiveAndFit saidThere is an interesting thing about the word heaven according to early christian beliefs .. there are at least three of them now (the third one being where god dwells also called eternity) .. and the old one will pass away and god's dwelling will be with men (or whatever they are after a resurrection) icon_eek.gif it is very sci-fi in some ways

    The Mormons have 3 heavens too!
    I'm not sure if it is the same thing but this one is in the bible (not book of mormon):
    2 Corinthians 12:1-4
    1 I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. 3 And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— 4 was caught up to paradise.
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    Dec 19, 2009 11:01 PM GMT
    Heaven is full of hot hunks wearing nothing but a shiny halo and feathery wings. I'll sit on a giant cloud and shoot the shit with Jesus and Mary while the Heaven Hunks massage, fan, and feed me grapes. icon_lol.gif

    Not really, I have no idea what heaven will be like, probably like how it was before I was born. It will be perfect because you will be closer to God and I believe the loving bonds we make on earth carry on in heaven.

    I think it is interesting that you hate gay christians. I understand the somewhat of an oxymoron, but I think gay republicans are worse. While I believe in God and Jesus, I believe what my heart tells me too and take the Bible with a grain (a ton) of salt. To me the Bible is a perversion of the word of God, after all it was written by man.
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    Dec 19, 2009 11:01 PM GMT
    jockmania saidAnother stupid topic to talk about. Does anyone want to message me and we can have a topic about real stuff like how to set up scams to make money.


    hahahaha

    thread win.
  • creature

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    Dec 19, 2009 11:26 PM GMT
    I wouldn't know. I've never been.

    Though now that you've blatantly said it, I'm curious as to why you don't like or understand gay Christians.
  • masculumpedes

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    Dec 19, 2009 11:42 PM GMT
    Well, when the moon is in the seventh house and Jupiter aligned with Mars.....icon_wink.gif
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    Dec 19, 2009 11:49 PM GMT
    malefeet saidWell, when the moon is in the seventh house and Jupiter aligned with Mars.....icon_wink.gif
    icon_lol.gif that brings back memories icon_redface.gif

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    Dec 19, 2009 11:52 PM GMT
    I think Guilty Gear has every right to ask such a question. In fact I believe that every child has and will ask their parents about the afterlife. The very fact that the afterlife is naturally built into our psyches is thoroughly testified by the enormous number of religious buildings, both ancient and modern, found all over the world, ranging from the Pyramids and Temples of ancient Egypt to the "Wigwam" - the affectionate name for a modern cathedral in Liverpool (UK city).

    The Bible does say that no man has seen the beautiful things that God has prepared for those who love him, but elsewhere in the Holy Writ clues are given.

    In Revelation 21 a city is described, the New Jerusalem which comes down from God from Heaven. It is foursquare, each side being up to 1,500 miles in length. Thus "City" and "Country" are interchangable terms to describe it, for the whole of the United Kingdom can fit inside with plenty of room to spare. It has twelve foundations, each with the name of the twelve apostles of Jesus Christ written on it. It is surrounded by a wall (why? I don't know) with three gates on each side, these gates has above them the names of the twelve tribes of Israel. Within the city, all the buildings are made of twelve precious stones, each with its own color and transparent. One can see right through them. With twelve apostles being Jewish, the twelve Jewish tribes, the name of the city sharing the name of the present Jerusalem, the capital of Israel, the very concept of Heaven is interwoven with Israel, the land and its people.

    But non-Jewish Christians will also be there, it is open for everyone who puts his faith in the atoning death of Jesus Christ on the cross. It does not matter which nation one grew up in, every person who is saved by Christ will be there. And it is a free gift, it cannot be earned or worked for.

    The body of Jesus Christ after his resurrection gives a good idea what ours will be like. Somehow we will be able to fly, pass through buildings and materialise, as Jesus did when he appeared to his disciples after his resurrection. Yet we will be able to eat and drink, and each individual will be recogniseable.

    Here then lies the reason why we are here. We are NOT the products of evolution, despite what the scientists say. We are here to know God and to be friends with him. God is a Trinity: Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and these three have an eternal love for each other that is way above human understanding. If a sinful, imperfect man can love his wife and shower her with affection, how much more perfect is the love flowing between the three persons of the Trinity? And the reason we are here? Because God wants us to share and be part in the divine love!

    Sin caused both physical and eternal death. We will all die because of sin within us. But God has dealt with this problem by sending his Son, who he loves intensely, to lay down his life so we can be cleansed from sin altogether and be close to our Maker forever!
  • masculumpedes

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    Dec 19, 2009 11:56 PM GMT
    ActiveAndFit said
    malefeet saidWell, when the moon is in the seventh house and Jupiter aligned with Mars.....icon_wink.gif
    icon_lol.gif that brings back memories icon_redface.gif




    WOW......Right On! 1961.jpg
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    Dec 20, 2009 12:01 AM GMT
    funny pictures of cats with captions
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    Dec 20, 2009 12:02 AM GMT
    creature saidI wouldn't know. I've never been.

    Though now that you've blatantly said it, I'm curious as to why you don't like or understand gay Christians.


    I guess cause I channel the hatred I perceive from the Christian Community as a whole and maybe I'm still tepid from the slew of religious threads lately in which I engaged in epic e-battling.

    From what I hear on television and hear in a very conservative state is that GAY is not OK, and that's putting it kindly. It doesn't matter what they think though because I know the Gay Community is more accepting. But it peeves me to no end when a guy embraces his persecutor's beliefs, especially when he becomes indignant and self righteous about them. Well, excuse me. I just find it curious to see a guy straddling the fence that way. I consider it straddling the fence because the book clearly states what side of the fence you are on if you are gay. I just wanted to know from them what is the pay off? Heaven? So what do they expect heaven to give them?

    If you want to know, I believe in Jesus, but no one ever talks about heaven. Exactly what are Christians agreeing to? The bible is full of what happened on Earth, but hardly anything about celestial politics. That has been the stuff of Science fiction. If HELL turns out to be conscious torment and Heaven turns out to be unconscious Nirvana; are they not the same? Everything you lived for won't be accessible to you. The only way something like a human would go along with something like that would be to be altered in someway. SO how is GOD going to make a pack of scum-bag sinners suitable for heaven and unworthy of HELL? What will they lose?

    To put it another way. What I got from the latest thread is that everyone is a sinner ( I thought you had to be less if a sinner to go to heaven, but apparently I was wrong). Ok, that's nice, but the mind imagining heaven right now IS a human mind and a sinful human mind at that. What a sinful human wants : everlasting life, wealth, knowledge, love/lust are not the things I would imagine a Heaven without sin could provide.

    My conundrum is : how will heaven be different if the humans that go there stay intact? Or how different will humans have to be if heaven is to stay intact? It's just a rant really.



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    Dec 20, 2009 12:21 AM GMT
    GuiltyGear said
    creature saidI wouldn't know. I've never been.

    Though now that you've blatantly said it, I'm curious as to why you don't like or understand gay Christians.


    I guess cause I channel the hatred I perceive from the Christian Community as a whole and maybe I'm still tepid from the slew of religious threads lately in which I engaged in epic e-battling.

    From what I hear on television and hear in a very conservative state is that GAY is not OK, and that's putting it kindly. It doesn't matter what they think though because I know the Gay Community is more accepting. But it peeves me to no end when a guy embraces his persecutor's beliefs, especially when he becomes indignant and self righteous about them. Well, excuse me. I just find it curious to see a guy straddling the fence that way. I consider it straddling the fence because the book clearly states what side of the fence you are on if you are gay. I just wanted to know from them what is the pay off? Heaven? So what do they expect heaven to give them?

    If you want to know, I believe in Jesus, but no one ever talks about heaven. Exactly what are Christians agreeing to? The bible is full of what happened on Earth, but hardly anything about celestial politics. That has been the stuff of Science fiction. If HELL turns out to be conscious torment and Heaven turns out to be unconscious Nirvana; are they not the same? Everything you lived for won't be accessible to you. The only way something like a human would go along with something like that would be to be altered in someway. SO how is GOD going to make a pack of scum-bag sinners suitable for heaven and unworthy of HELL? What will they lose?

    To put it another way. What I got from the latest thread is that everyone is a sinner ( I thought you had to be less if a sinner to go to heaven, but apparently I was wrong). Ok, that's nice, but the mind imagining heaven right now IS a human mind and a sinful human mind at that. What a sinful human wants : everlasting life, wealth, knowledge, love/lust are not the things I would imagine a Heaven without sin could provide.

    My conundrum is : how will heaven be different if the humans that go there stay intact? Or how different will humans have to be if heaven is to stay intact? It's just a rant really.



    You are like an obstinate child. You should speak/rant less and listen more

    Gforce explained some of this to you yesterday
    Blackguy explained some of this to you today
    Not too Old just explained some of this to you in his post
    Why don't you ask either or all three of them? They seem to have a good handle on things

    BTW, how are you any different from gay christians or gay republicans in liking white men to the exclusion of black men? White men were once your oppressor and in some respects still is
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    Dec 20, 2009 12:23 AM GMT
    GuiltyGear saidFrom what I hear on television and hear in a very conservative state is that GAY is not OK, and that's putting it kindly. It doesn't matter what they think though because I know the Gay Community is more accepting. But it peeves me to no end when a guy embraces his persecutor's beliefs, especially when he becomes indignant and self righteous about them. Well, excuse me. I just find it curious to see a guy straddling the fence that way. I consider it straddling the fence because the book clearly states what side of the fence you are on if you are gay. I just wanted to know from them what is the pay off? Heaven? So what do they expect heaven to give them?
    I think what you feel is very reasonable .. For gays, the ones raised in western/christian society at least, many are taught that there is a wrathful, dogmatic, punishing god .. then we are taught that what we are is immoral (homosexual) .. so what you end up with are people that are basically raised to believe that the ultimate parent (god) disapproves what you are.

    Some will go on with that blather . "oh hate the sin but not the sinner" .. but you know that the same sex LOVE that you feel IS who you are .. that is it is an intrinsic part of you. The most real thing to YOU is your own experiences not other peoples explanations of theirs.

    So you are left like an abused child ever trying to please the parent that will never be pleased. The problem is that the god that people have in their head is purely a mental construct. Unlike a real human being, no one has seen or had physical contact with god. Humans rely entirely on what other humans have told them and "feeling" for their ultimate truth in that case.

    That means what you will hear from people about god are mental projections and so forth rather than direct experience. Ultimately you have to rely on your own direct experience for INTERNAL meaning. Otherwise you are like a second hand person, a sort of zombie, or an artificial plant that represents something that is a real plant.
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    Dec 20, 2009 12:36 AM GMT
    I have heard what many of the people that go on about their religion, but I wonder how many of those religious people here believe that the bible is the inerrant word of god? It seems to be the source of much confusion and disagreement.

    I mean I can answer the original questions from what I have read in the bible over the past 27 years or so, but I am not going to claim it is some kind of "ultimate truth"
  • creature

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    Dec 20, 2009 12:55 AM GMT
    Thanks for answering my question. I'll answer yours more fully before going back to your response...

    When I think of Heaven, I just think of eternal rest for the soul. Where it's just our energy (soul) — no human form. I really don't know how to describe my interpretation of it. I don't see it as I used to think of it as a child, where I would be walking around fully clothed. Clothing is immaterial. And why would we need our bodies, or a resemblance of it, when it's the character of the soul that matters.

    I'm not trying to convert you, but please don't let Conservative Christians, who say being gay is an abomination and point to the Bible as their justification, influence how you view Christianity as a whole. People can say all they want, but the message I get from the Bible is love. Pure and simple. And if being gay is a sin, I want to hear it directly from God. My ears are just as available to listen as a preacher's (one of the things I like about being a Quaker - no ministers).

    No one is more of an authority to your beliefs than yourself.
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    Dec 20, 2009 12:58 AM GMT
    Most false belief systems have some construct of a good place. I suppose "Heaven" would be that.

    Once of the conveniences of a false belief system / fairy tales, is that it can be ANYTHING you'd like it to be.
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    Dec 20, 2009 1:04 AM GMT
    Blondizgd said.



    You are like an obstinate child. You should speak/rant less and listen more

    Gforce explained some of this to you yesterday
    Blackguy explained some of this to you today
    Not too Old just explained some of this to you in his post
    Why don't you ask either or all three of them? They seem to have a good handle on things

    BTW, how are you any different from gay Christians or gay republicans in liking white men to the exclusion of black men? White men were once your oppressor and in some respects still is


    You're funny and sad at the same time. I'd block you, but you are too amusing. I said I don't prefer sex with black men and you being a typical gay, thinks sex and amicability are the same. It's true that white men oppressed my ancestors and used "religion" as a tool to do so. The same happened when the Native Americans got "GOD" smacked, but I am over that as all of those blue eyed devils who did it are dead.

    I started the thread not to be convinced about Heaven from your pals, but to understand why anyone would want to go to Heaven when it would be impossible to exist there without being altered. Alterations we don't even fathom as we fathom about the rest of it.

    I didn't ask BlackGuy4You because he is a hypocrite. I didn't ask G-Force because he is a twit, I didn't ask you because you are a brown nosing old instigator and all NotThatOld did was throw scripture at me, nothing from his own mind.

    As I told BlackGuy4You, I reject his fence straddling not religion all together. As for you well, I love to be called an obstinate child by a person who acts like one himself. I love to be accused of ranting by someone who doesn't have anything to add to discussion unless he's "me tooing" someone else's rantings.

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    Dec 20, 2009 1:11 AM GMT
    GuiltyGear said
    Blondizgd said.



    You are like an obstinate child. You should speak/rant less and listen more

    Gforce explained some of this to you yesterday
    Blackguy explained some of this to you today
    Not too Old just explained some of this to you in his post
    Why don't you ask either or all three of them? They seem to have a good handle on things

    BTW, how are you any different from gay Christians or gay republicans in liking white men to the exclusion of black men? White men were once your oppressor and in some respects still is


    You're funny and sad at the same time. I'd block you, but you are too amusing. I said I don't prefer sex with black men and you being a typical gay, thinks sex and amicability are the same. It's true that white men oppressed my ancestors and used "religion" as a tool to do so. The same happened when the Native Americans got "GOD" smacked, but I am over that as all of those blue eyed devils who did it are dead.

    I started the thread not to be convinced about Heaven from your pals, but to understand why anyone would want to go to Heaven when it would be impossible to exist there without being altered. Alterations we don't even fathom as we fathom about the rest of it.

    I didn't ask BlackGuy4You because he is a hypocrite. I didn't ask G-Force because he is a twit, I didn't ask you because you are a brown nosing old instigator and all NotThatOld did was throw scripture at me, nothing from his own mind.

    As I told BlackGuy4You, I reject his fence straddling not religion all together. As for you well, I love to be called an obstinate child by a person who acts like one himself. I love to be accused of ranting by someone who doesn't have anything to add to discussion unless he's "me tooing" someone else's rantings.



    So there you have your answer then.

    You have have asked a question and like the obstinate silly little child that you continue to prove yourself to be - you did not ask it with the intent of having an answer, but solely for the purpose of stamping your feet in a tantrum.

    Grow to hell up child! Is all I can tell you. You are way too old for this bullshit!

    You have yet to prove that blackguy is hypocritical. You have yet to prove that Gforce is a twit.

    From where I'm sitting though, I would say you are the one demonstrating these qualities to the Nth degree.
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    Dec 20, 2009 1:16 AM GMT

    yeah, because you have your kankles in a twist over me. I'm not sure why.