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So this guy who lives in my apartment complex (a few doors down) is all but short of being an absolute bitch when I run into him because I don't want to have anything to do with him "relationship" wise. At first when I moved in, he was like "Welcome to the neighborhood" which quickly became "you better commit to a relationship with me cause that's what I want".

Sadly, this isn't the first time this kind of approach has been taken with me when someone is interested in a relationship.

The whole situation got me to thinking, so I took a drive today to sort it out. Romance just seems to be dead nowadays when it comes to a lot of guys trying to establish relationships with someone else. It seems to be more forced and quick than it seems "brought about" and cultivated.

Have we lost the idea of being romantic because we've gotten so wrapped up in ourselves? Are we too busy making sure that WE are taken care of versus what we bring to the table for a potential mate and the feelings of others - or is it truly all about "ME"?

I mean, is this just my experience, or what the hell happened to that cool side of courting someone?! You know, the things a guy did while pursuing you that you will always look back on and smile?! Things that make you feel special?! Romance!!

Sometimes, I feel that male birds in the Amazon do a better job at turning on a potential mate with their exotic dances than we humans do - "here John, I bought you a tonic water, now you owe me a fuck". I mean, what the hell is that?!

So, is romance dead? What the hell happened to the art, passion, and thrill of courting and romance?

Personally, if romance IS dead, I'd rather stay single and make due with a lubed up electric toothbrush.

AH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA!!!! A LUBED UP WHAT?!?!?!? Oh my gosh! Nice.

A RELATIONSHIP TAKES TWO INTERESTED PARTIES, THIS GUY (DOWN THE HALL) SEEMS TO HAVE IGNORED THIS PART OF THE EQUATION.
NARCISSISM AT IT'S BEST!

a lubed up electic toothbrush....a little lube and you hit the button. You'll see everything vibrate and it's great!

My b.f. at the time was being an ass as usual one day, and during the course of his ranting, he asked if I even ever bothered to use the SoniCare he bought me. I thought, "oh, I'll use it alright you bastard", so I did. But I think he meant use it in my mouth.

Whatever. It was more reliable than he was and a lot more fun. Instead of begging for sex like I used to and getting it once every 3 weeks, I'd find myself hoping he'd leave just so my toothbrush and I could have some quality time to ourselves.

Ok, now I've really derailed my own posting.

YOU have derailed your own posting...ugh

It's Saturday night. Give me some slack.

Ok, back to the question: Is Romance Dead in Dating?

Do you like pepsodent or colgate lube?

LOL !!

"Romance is dead - it was acquired in a hostile takeover by Hallmark and Disney, homogenized, and sold off piece by piece." - Lisa Simpson

My oh my AllAmericanTX...

never knew that an electric toothbrush can be used that way... now you have me looking at mine in a totally different way... LOL

However, back to your original post... I think it really depends on the person. There are those of us who are hopeless romantics out there. We are just a bit harder to find I guess.

However, you have to remember that with your good looks... I am surprised you haven't attracted more stalkers! LOL

You may want to take a gun with you next time you head out the door, just in case... LOL

What a beautiful post, including the toothbrush thing which makes it absolutely sublime. Seriously, I love that part.

But I wonder about romance, it seems elusive at best even to straight people. But without the support of society that we lack as gays, it is very challenging. I was going to start a post about courting, as in how do each of us go about it.

But the thing is that the anecdote you relate is consistent for a lot of people I know. It's like we should go for the jugular cause time is short. It doesn't help that sex plays a key role in all of this.

I mean, what if you were attracted to this guy, but it turns out you were both "bottoms." For some, that is a deal breaker. Where does romance fit into that?

So, I would like to answer your post with a question to anyone reading this. What is romance to you?

Endorsed by AllAmericanTx:

http://www.brushbunny.com/

obscenewish, will you stay on topic!!!!! LOL!

That link does not work Obscenwish ;)

better than packing a vibrator when you go on vacation, and having the security guys at the airport scrutinizing it... LOL with an electric toothbrush and thing, no one would ever suspect you... ;)

I am on topic. Endorsed with a few minor reservations by AllAmericanTX:

http://www.lovehoney.co.uk/product.cfm?p=10535


Actually, I hear the complaint about romance all the time. Somebody needs to define romance.

To me it's about seduction of the heart and, being a dance of sort, it takes time. It is pretty antithetical to the wish for immediate gratification (the obscene wish, as it were). It alternates bliss and longing with a kind of bittersweet pain. It trades in metaphors rather than literalism. It evokes the imagination, principally.

It's an illness, of course.

Link works for me, NYC. I think you have to be a believer in the magic of dental romance to be able to see it.

You could also use the handle on one of those "power" razors that vibrate...or so I've HEARD. *AHEM*

On topic - Romance isn't really dead, it's just difficult to find. I think the right amount is really good for any relationship, the issue for me is when people can't differentiate between being romantic and being just plain cheesy. Romance takes creativity and innovation (and sometimes, it shows in its simplest forms. Creativiy doesn't have to be complex or difficult).

Although I admit, sometimes it's cute when a guy is cheesy, LOL! :p

Love that,

It is a dance,

an illness,

a bittersweet pain.

And I agree it can trade in metaphor rather than literalism, but it has to look like something. And I love that it evokes the imagination. I made videos to woo my special guy. If you are good I will show them to you (obscenewish, have to get permission first).

But, what does it look like to do?

But looking LIKE something is the near-definition of a metaphor.

I ain't understand your concluding question, Mad.

But another question: Is romance necessarily an expression of love? Infatuated people -- stalkers for example -- can behave romantically. I was stalked by a pre-operative tranny escort (yes, really) who alternately sent me roses and death threats. Eros and thanatos. Maybe romance has to make you feel like you're dying at some level -- losing your identity to the other.

Or is AAT really talking about courtship?

Thanks to all of you for making this a fun forum and serious all at once.

Obscene, you and another post asked the same thing. What is romance? Everyone is different so to each his own, right? Good point.

I can say for myself, nothing is more romantic than knowing someone loves you as much as you do them - and they treat that with respect. They maintain that. They work on it. Just like a car or anything that requires attention, they don't make an exception to the relationship and expect it to run itself.

NOT Romantic: someone who just puts their relationship on a mantle, like some object, like a decoration, that just sits there and collects dust.

Romantic: treating the person you're with in a special way, in a way - that should something happen, and they never walk through that door again - you know in your heart you would not have done anything differently, and you loved them the best you could have loved them.

Very good point, obscenewish.

First of all, what I meant to say is what does it mean to "do" romance as an activity? And I know that is problematic question for those of us reading Foucault. But go with it.

Secondly, I love the idea of dying to yourself as well. Can we talk about this without metaphor and poetry? Maybe not. So much the better.

Thirdly, I guess I did mean courtship specifically in my question.

Clarification: You're right Obscene, the question got kinda wide.

The original question was more about romance in the process of courtship. But I guess it doens't really end there, or shouldn't, so I guess the topic is open to romance in both courtship and relationship.

Either way, it's Saturday night so help yourselves with whichever angle you want to take it.

No, Mad, I don't think you can talk about romance without invoking a poetic mind. Even Hallmark knows that.

Have you read Rilke's "Letters to a Young Poet"? He writes a good bit about the heart's education in love in that.

Romantic behavior? To be most meaningful I think it has to consider the particularity of its object's heart, even if it is performed inside the container of a ritual.

Thus, were I to court AAT, I wouldn't just show up with a dozen roses. I'd have a few pink Brush Bunnies scattered in with them, along with a tube of Colgate and maybe a dental mirror to help explore those hard-to-see oral g-spots.

OK, it's time for me to go out and get myself romanced for an hour. Happy Saturday night. Don't forget to brush your teeth before bed.

Your "this guy who lives in my apartment complex" is a creep. Don't have anything more to do with him.

Well, I would agree, but he lives, well, let's just say we run into each other often...and I'm not gonna move cause I like my place lol

But that was just an example. I was making the point that he could have tried of 'coming on' differently, instead of the "pushy" tactics to elbow his way into someone's life. So I wondered, is this how it is nowadays or is romance still alive and well in society?

Isn't romance the name given to the human version of the elaborate courtship ritual that many animals in the kingdom do to try to score a mate? Admittidly for homosapiens this ritual over the course of evolution has become much more involved, varied and complicated.

In our modern fast-food society there are many ways now to fast-track scoring without all the 'hassle' of romance or "pre-copulating machinations" e.g. online f#@k sites. Love or loath it,its a symptom of our times...

Hey I love fresh breath. In fact I require it. But batteries DO run down.

AAT - quit yer whining. Since when don't you like an aggressive man telling you what to do?! Next time you run into your bud I want you to **sparkle** for him. That's an order, boy.

PM8

a fittnes site, not the place to discuss gay camp stuff. bitch ? not associated with fitttness or sport or muscle .

Ah romance!!! Hey, AAT, why don't you just give the guy a quick roll, If you make it lousy enough, he might let you be.

And guys, romance has to be experienced, so, please just don't write about it give me some experiences and what you think on them.
Has anybody ever been "romantically involved", was it sweet, innocent, unexpected?
I want again to feel the intensity with which he brought me to the cusps of love before he let me land softly on his loving smile.

Romance won't ever die, but your question is a good one... because things really have changed.

The Internet has kind of over-sexualized us I think... and people now know a lot about each other before ever meeting (including what "position" they prefer.)

It used to be a delicate dance, finding your way through all that, and getting to know people organically if you will.

I for one am just waiting to be swept off my feet... so I really hope romance isn't dead, because I might be waiting a long time! :)

Is romance dead? I've had a few moments, but until a month ago, would have said yes for the most part from my experience. Most guys I've met are merely interested in sex, for sex's sake..and that can be fun, don't get me wrong, and we all like a quick romp from time to time. But....
Met this great guy at an all-male party. Struck up a conversation at start of party and was with him entire time. Was too crowded and both of us little too shy to actually do very much, other than behind closed door of bathroom, but was enough to trigger mutual interest and desire for further contact. Exchanged phone calls over the next two weeks, and last weekend, spent 3 glorious days and nights camping at gay campground in Michigan. Conversation, frequent kissing, cooking together, sitting together in front of campfire, dancing to music under the white lights we'd strung from tree-to-tree at our site, hand holding on walks, hugging, gazing into oneanothers eyes, passionate love-making in the tent, sleeping pressed together in aftermath of sex, waking up the next morning, glad to see the smiling face on the pillow next to ours...and knowing that we wanted to see much more of each other....

God, romance is alive...just expect it at the most unexpected moment, 'cause it can sneak up on you at a party where you had no intention of meeting someone that special

PHL: Hey guy! Yeah, you know me, I like it rough and all - but even then, I do like the seductive side of stuff as well.

I'm not saying roughing it up can't be romantic, like Obscense said, to each his own, right? So it's all relative. But, I do miss some of the "courtship" aspects to trying to lure a guy in.

Scally, let's get one thing clear right now: if you consider this question to be "gay" or "campy", then don't freaking worry about it and go post on another forum. So what?! It's a question posed, not a stab at trying to put a kink in your day. Sorry it bothers you so much and all this "feeling" stuff is intruding on your manhood. Geez. We're humans, not doorknobs. It's a valid question so chill.

Hummm...Interesting topic.

I think the ideals and rituals of "romance" have gone through many forms through out hisotry and varies from culture to culture... What was condsidered "romantic" to one group at one time maybe very different from another...

But the scenerio and the guy you described just sounds plain task oriented and psycho... Bitchiness is never romantic..

By the way, when you mentiond an electric toothrush lubed up up you know here just makes me cringe the possibility of a punctured rectum and pierced prostate... ER!

No ER needed - pitch a condom over the handle, lube the thing, and hit the button.

Nah, no worries. No worse than anything else you could put up there.

Great stuff, allamerican tx

to answer your question:

Hell NO, babe !

If romance is dead, then so am I.

Love is all around ya, bro. it's in the details. Everywhere you look.
connect all of that and you begin to make circles , a spiral right to your heart. It is often times not found in the physical, which is ephemeral anyhow... but HELL it certainly does help to get a good piece of ass ! Maybee what you really need is a good toss in the hey. Start there. let go of the prince charming thing, and soon enough he'll be right smack in front of you. Keep positive, and keep the light shinin' in, browski.

Peace, jocksters.

... and remember :
YOUR HOT ENOUGH, SMART ENOUGH, and deserve bigger n' better than a toothbrush !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And should the toothbrush be left to vibrate at least a half an hour before using, to get that warm feeling?

Like some others have already expressed, it is hard to define romance. I guess to me it means wanting to care about and be cared about by someone I also want to do and be done by.

i feel that from the approach you took on the romance situation, you could simply read your paragraph by replacing the "WE"s with "I"s. sometimes when i am in a passion funk, like now, we/i replace romantic with dramatic. it is a simple mistake to make, and a great filler for each other, each as exciting and luring as the next. so perhaps you could try to be thoughtful and aware in all your actions, this helps bring in a sense of creativity. with that you create the surroundings you want and desire. this will also attract what you are hoping for, and sweep that what you don't need to the door. another helpfull tidbit is, clean your house, burn some candles, play a mix of sam cooke night beat, amy winehouse back to black, and otis redding, and david bowie put on your red shoes and dance. while you are listening to your music paint one wall red, blood red! buy softer sheets with a high thread count, and breathe real deep. take a hot chammomile salt bath, then rinse off using your shower with luke warm water letting the water hit the crown of your forehead from the tips of your toes. this practices cleanses you of bad juju. try to stear clear from using the toothbrush, and if you do careful of sharp corners, and put it in a condom, to help keep it sanitized, and you also dont want teeth to start growing in your ass. i wish you luck, and remember you are always in control, everything is perception.

"a fittnes site, not the place to discuss gay camp stuff. bitch ? not associated with fitttness or sport or muscle . --scally

Ok, we get it: you don't like anything that even hints of being less than excessively hypermasculine. However, this particular forum is "All Things Gay", not "All Things Gay, As Long As It's Solely About Fitness And Isn't Campy Or Faggy Or Anything Else That Scally Hates." Complain if you must, but it's not likely to result in people tailoring their legitimate, on-topic discussions to fit your particular likes or needs.

It's funny that this subject was brought up, something like this just happened to me last night.
This guy that I have met and "somewhat" know, asked me on a date last night. We had a really great time. I felt things were going well. He bought dinner, I offered to chip in, he said no. We are walking to the car and he asks, "So you want to come over to my place so that I can give you a b/j?"
Clutching the pearls and looking horrible appauled I said, "Is that all you want me for?" he says, "No, I want to hold you and cuddle." So I handed him my half of the dinner bill and said. "Dinner was good." Then I left.
Needless to say, Pink's song "You and Your Hand" has been playin in my head ever since.
BTW, He didn't get to suck me off nor cuddle with me.

gsh1964, you shoulda cuddled. :)

Romance can take many forms. Anytime I see a guy carrying flowers I think it's romantic. (cheesy I know, romantic nonetheless)

A look can be romantic but coming home to a clean house with nice music playing and a martini waiting can be romantic too.

Once I came home and checked the mail to find an envelope addressed to me. When I opened it, it was full of instructions, telling me to pack some clothes and to be waiting outside by a certain time. When that time arrived, a limo and driver drove up, my partner got out and had me get in the car. He had the driver drive us to Vancouver B.C., where we spent the weekend. During our last evening there, we had a really nice dinner. When dessrt was presented, there were tickets to see a show after dinner on my dessert plate.

Romance comes in many different forms. It can be as simple as a look or sometimes it can be more. No matter what form it takes, the common thing about it is, it's a selfless act and from the heart.

I don't know much about romance... I can say that I have NEVER been "romantic" with another guy... I've flirted but I've never been romantic. But then again, I've never actually courted a guy, I always screw first and try and get to know them later. Kind of backwards I know... I've also never been in a relationship either though. Woe is me.

Years ago you had to date someone within a few hour's walk or horse ride. Later a few hours car drive. Now, with the internet the whole world is available and digitally in your living room on the computer. It seems so many find 'Mr. Right' to live thousands of miles from them (on purpose, so they can secretly avoid commitment???)

How many have been taught to be romantic? I don't think it's one of the basic instincts. The old black and white movies were good instructors of the day how to romance. Today it's instant gratification, quick one liners, get the job done, in-out and gone.

I think being romantic is an art. It's learned. From our parents, Hollywood, TV. We learn it from childhood. Going to the first dance and holding hands, passing notes in class, sharing secret crushes with your best friend, the prom. It takes years to learn romance, our childhood and adolsence is alot about how to romance, become a partner, date. I think some skirted this education. Maybe deep feelings of inadequacy because they were attracted to their own sex but had to play the straigh role to be accepted. thus learned not to trust their true feelings at a young age. True feelings = separation from the peer group by being outcast.

Then, all at once, hormones raging, we're 'adults' and expected to behave in a mature way though the little child within still hasn't learned coupling behavior. Dating/relationship skills still at 8 year old level, body at 23. Ouch! "why don't you like me, I like you!" "I slept with you thus you love me", "Love me because I need someone." Childlike demands because that level of nurturing and learning stopped at that age group level.

John Bradshaw wrote a few books on this topic. One is Toxic Shame and another is Homecoming. About being adults with little children inside running the show...and taught by parents that also were adults with little children inside running their show. Amazing reading.

Romance doesn't happen, it's learned behavior. Mating...now that happens.

Ok, back to the toothbrush. Do you keep the bristles on?? I'd think that'd wear a spot out of the rectum.

Oh, if I were to ever be so lucky to take the place of that electronic toothbrush. I cannot even fathom that anyone, even after years of being together, could keep his hands or lips off of that profoundly beautiful body for even a couple days. 3 Weeks! What a fool!
Romance.. hmmm. I believe in it wholly. But, so far in my life, it seems like it has had to remain an ideal rather than a reality. Ive had glimpses of it in the past and long for it, but I too feel like giving up and just fucking my hand for the rest of my life. There is such incredible character in a guy who values time and romance. Like knowing that a house built on a foundation of lube will fall:)
Fuck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And what about when everything inside you tells you that you really care about someone deeply? Like waking up wondering if they are ok or happy or sad or what they're going to do today every single day without fail. But knowing that they perceive your attempts at contact a bother. Trying with all your might to squelch the intense draw the mind has to what it perceives as beautiful. Romance is just like all communication. There has to be a giver and a receiver. Im kinda partial to giving... :)
Any receivers out there???
I got one heck of an underused real life Sonicare here in my jeans..... :~)

Romance is alive and well. I won't let this one go!!!!!!!!! When we first went out 3 yrs ago he said sex is like fishing the small ones u throw back the big ones u mount! He revealed to me later on I was his first-no wonder it was so tough at first. The relationship was built first from a solid friendship , one of mutual respect and admiration. We r still trying to outdue the other all the time in aspects of thoughtful things we do and find for each other. I would hope everyone could eventually find something like this for themselves. Ciao-

If you're lazy, romance is dead. Unfortunately, I think this population is growing. Romance requires discipline. You can't give in to an easy lay - and sometimes this requires serious self-control! ;-)

You have to work at romancing someone, from planning special events to discovering the things that captivate him. A lot of people simply don't want to make the effort. It's much easier to buy a guy dinner and expect a fuck out of it. Or turn into an absolute bitch because you didn't get instant gratification.

I think a lot of gay men simply don't know how to romance another guy. Our "culture" (I use that term loosely) is dysfunction-ally obsessed with a person's superficial attributes. Romance isn't superficial. I know that I've jumped into relationships too quickly because he was hot and it was easy. But there was no romance there - and the flame burned out as quickly as it burned hot. Romance in a relationship is like cultivating a garden. It takes time - and work.

I'm currently in pessimist mode... I don't think romance at large exists. I realize I'm generalizing but I think the realization of the effort involved in romance is too much for some men. I suppose it's all about the instant gratification!

I'm not saying that's my position -- I just wanted to address the original question posed.

i saw this topic rasied on someones profile tonight.
and it comes at me in a time where i have been relecting quite a bit on certain relationships. is the sense of romance dead? good question. i think that men today in many places across the us seem to be in this state of limbo. they want romance they want firewirks which time after time dont show themsleves. why dont they. cause everyne out there is too busy waiting for it to happen to MAKE it happen. or settle for it not happening

romance takes effort. something most gay men are not willing to invest the time in. it does however exist. it is just the little things that add up and mean the most. i will never forget how my ex would always bring me home a greeting card from the grocery store. all he had to do was walk down the aisle that sold them. pay for it. go to the car. write 'i love you princess' on the inside. put it in the bag with the bread and the milk and i would find it there when he came home. to this day i still have every card he ever gave me!!!

effort-minimal
price-about $2.00
impact-PRICELESS !!!

Probably the most romantic thing the b&c ever did was one of my Christmas presents from last year. We had gone to the Grand Canyon that fall and I bought a t-shirt and got the sizing wrong. It was my only memento from that trip, and I was bummed.

He called the gift shop and bought one on the phone, had it shipped in. It was the first time he's ever been able to surprise me.