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Do we as homosexuals still live in fear of the bible and biblical propaganda or have we like our diverse culture grown into more intellectual and spiritual beings as we have been throughout history?

You pretty much just showed how intollerant and undiverse you are with your question/statement.

A gay friend of mine is a wiccan and he can officially marry people. He's in the States so he can't marry gay people yet. But there is an example.

What weird answers. Just shows the ignorance of people when it comes to Marriage. No one marries people. They marry each other. But some one officiates, representing the social structure in which the spouses declare that they wish to be recognized as a couple. Marriage is and always has been a legal contract about the sharing of property. The current problem stems from the word "marriage". The state issues a license to couples that legally binds then. Breaking that contract is called divorce. Divorce exists only with the state. The state is the sole provider of divorce. In effect what states issue is a decree of "civil union". That should be available to couples of any gender, period. If you want to get married in a church or whatever go ahead but don't try to do it without a marrige license. So let's leave "marriage" to the social/cultural sector with its parameters and civil union to the state with no parameters and open to all.

Now as far as pagans go........

Sorry, I mentioned marriage, meaning officiate, just to point out the formality of my friend's position and the commitment to his faith.

I hadn't meant to start a conversation about marriage.

And the second part of the comment came about when I realized he can't marry gay people, it seemed ironic.

Anyway, sorry for the confusion and the lame post. Just trying to point out a pagan among us. And a cool one at that.

So back to "pagans". I recently read in Men's Journal that guys who walk around the locker room completely naked are "neo-pagan"!
So just what is a pagan? Someone who doesn't believe in mono-theism? (As in the paternalistic religions, Judaism, Christianity, or Islam).
I like to think of myself as pagan the same way the Greeks did. Philosophical, artistic,good conversationalist, etc. And if I can be those things and naked too....well!
Love to watch naked athlete. Think the male body as the epiome of perfection (well not all I guess).
religiously however I feel that God(s) are irrelevant in our lives. "Man is the measure of all things."

Coach

Strangely, Paganism has come to mean a lot of things these days.

Traditionally, paganism is a religious term that can be classified as anything non-Christian. Now obviously, a lot can fall under such a broad heading. Socially, however, people who classify themselves as "pagan" tend to be those who study and practice earth magic/worship, like shamanism or reclaiming witchcraft, for example.

There is a lot to this and there are more specifics, but the posters of these boards can be pretty vicious and i dare not try to define such a tender term in such an open forum.

The definition of 'pagan' is variable and slippery. Some refer to anything outside Middle Eastern monotheism as pagan, but the Jewish view is that worshipping a man as God is idolatry, therefore Christianity is pagan. I think in the context of this topic, pagan refers to Wicca and other Earth-based religions.

I must distinguish between agnostic and pagan. Agnostics are people who generally need proof that something exists--like God--before they can commit to believing in it, but they do not rule out the existence of god. They merely don't know one way or the other and are fine with that. Paganism, on the other hand, is a religion. It's a religion because it has FAITH in certain things. The same think can be said about atheism. Atheists, unlike Agnostics, firmly believe without doubt that there is NO god at all. Arguably athesism is also a religion then.

Most pagan religions are also polytheistic rather than monotheistic. That is, they have multiple gods, just the way you have multiple screen name personalities, gaydudeintosillygames.

First things first in reference to gaydudeintosports comment it was just a question. I'm Wiccan and I have nothing against Christ or his followers I was just asking a question that me and a friend where talking about.
I have fiends of all walks of life’s and path, hence if you are going to a comment about my question why not ask me about it instead of making a comment that makes you look like an ass?
Paganism is any Earth based faith.
Wicca is a pagan faith, but witchcraft is a practice within wicca not the whole of wicca.
Wicca is the faith and witchcraft is the practice.

Do we as homosexuals still live in fear of the bible and biblical propaganda or have we like our diverse culture grown into more intellectual and spiritual beings as we have been throughout history?

Wow! This is a lively topic. I don't live in fear of the Bible or bilbical propaganda, but I am very cautious as a gay man in one of the strongest outholds of the Deep Bible Belt, Arkansas. I think one has to be aware of their environs and the people and how reactionary, some can be. I don't want to get my head bashed in by a baseball bat, so here I'm very cautious about level of eye contact and such with some guys. I find that "gaydar" is more "in-check" here, as others are likewise cautious. This is a right to fire state for any reason, so people have to be very careful about being out, which is sad for me. I'm out with friends I trust. In Atlanta I was completely "out" and very comfortably so.

I think gay people are naturally "spiritual" without necessarily being religious. Gay people have faced up to THEIR TRUTH and chosen to "walk that path", what can be more spiritual?
I got a fortune cookie the other day that I really "felt" was specifically for me and spoke to me. It stated, "It takes courage to grow up and be who YOU really are." Capitalization mine.
Marriage is a strange thing. Ultimately, it is a Conscious Commitment between two individuals, who may chose to have friends as witnesses to the ceremony and celebration of that chosen commitment event. They may also chose to have a spiritual mentor and or some form of officiating person bare testimony to such as a rite invoking God as part of that commitment.
However, Marriage as an official thing of the state is quite different. One thing, you Apply for a License of Permission to Engage in Marriage, and thus the marriage "Act" which is assumed to bring forth children. A little understood aspect of this Applying for a Marriage License, is that you are putting your children up as an automatic "ward of the state" should they deem you unfit in any way. So, if you and your partner get into a bit of a fight over some silly issue and the authorities are called, they can come and take those children from you and have done so on a large scale level. All these Licenses and Permits you get are some form of this. They Deny your Sovereignty. That is all going to end soon.
Namaste,
Keep up the lively conversation, when all learn this way. Though I don't know you, I love you all. Thanks for sharing your Light here.
Stuman

I've got a lot of friends who are into... not really Wicca but something very similar to it. They always talk about how "spirits" have a certain affinity to homosexuals... I have no idea what this means, just throwing it out there.

I consider myself agnostic, but if I were to choose a religion to align myself with it would certainly be Wicca, mainly because of its acceptance of all walks of life. There is no persecution involved and I think that's fantastic. Aside from that, it also just seems to make sense... there is an explaination for everything and none of it is too out there for me to believe.

Im not afraid of the Bible... nor does it bother me. I AM however, extremely offended by some people's interpretations of it. It amazes me that people still quote the Catholic church when rallying their gaybashing beliefs, considering the church released a statement in 1975 stating that the church accepts that not all homosexuals chose to be that way. It preached tolerance and love as the Bible was supposed to... basically just restating the idea that its not mans job to judge another human being. Its too bad that most people who subscribe to a belief system are incapable understanding the backbone of their own religion.

Anywho.... Im honestly not even sure what your question meant so Im not sure if my response helped.

I would say im somewhat of a pagan. I follow the wiccan way to a degree with a mixture of druidism and aspects of christianity. Basically i have a harm non creed, with a pantheon of guilt.

A couple of things. Traditionally earth based religions have been pro homosexuality because they saw it as an embodiment of the male femal paradigm in human form. When using the visualization tool of the pentigram in witchcraft one is drawing an ancient symbol for women, as if to say that the circle is now the womb in which intention can grow. So a male practicioner especially if they follow the more dianistic magical rights can be viewed as a soul who understand its female counter parts and at times either invites or understand the other half to the human delema.

I just finished a book called jesus and the shamatic tradition of same sex love. It claimed that christianity was in fact understood best by homosexuality based on the old translations of baptising and having spiritual rites with men. Gumos y gummos translated to men with men or men lying with men. The author argued that some of jesus teaching to love they brother, and how he would take on the female role (i.e. the foot washing at the last supper) was a nod to earth based religions gnosism by understanding the unique role of human not the seperate entity of male female.

Are gay men more spiritual? I think it depends on the circumstance of upbringing. In estatic rights especially shamanism one must be "sick" and heal themselves to be considered a true shaman. This can be anywhere from mentally abusive towards onself and so on. The most basic outline for an ecstatic journey is identification, purification, exploration, and revelation. So i think some mens comming out stories are close parallels to a year and a day initiate rights as well as shamanic journies. What are we but new borns inhabiting a body for the first time when we out ourselves. We down new clothes at times, we open ourselves up to inner journies and esoteric obserations.

But increasingly the gay comming out story is becomming more smooth, less tramatic, less indicative to the shamanic journey of soul searching. So is the new gender queer generation spiritual because of preconcived notions instead of journying through something eerily like earth based initiations, is it inborn, intuitive? or is there a new gap besides the age gap, a spiritual gap, where reconcilliation is not needed?

people trying to discuss the mechanics of any religion seem to me to be living in uncertainty. there is no difference between mono- or poly-theastic based religions. people will choose whatever way is best for them to find a tether to a higher power, and the ways in which people do this should go without question.

although paganism or belief in more then one god is known to be the worlds oldest and maybe first true belief system, those that propogated christianity took it's symbols and demonized them (the pentagram is not a sign of the devil; the trident not his staff) and made the celebrations and holidays its own.

so similarities between two faiths that are, as it seems, polar opposites, are far more similar than a lot of folks would want to admit.

all religion, faith, or a structure of belief is, is a way for someone to find a source of solace. that shouldn't be analyzed.

Actually there is a significant difference in the practice of monotheistic and polytheistic religions.

Basically, Judaism and Christianity are preoccupied in a general way with the notion of "unity" -- the importance of the "one." This has had a general influence on western culture, so that we just take it for granted that "unity" in all its forms is ideal. We tend to always be looking for the transcendent ideal.

In the Greek and Roman traditions, the gods were understood to be incarnations of different aspects of the human psyche. (In fact, by the time of Plato, the gods were not even taken literally by most people.) So "unity" was not such a concern to them and there was no transcendent single ideal.

This is why fundamentalism is so compelling: It reduces everything to the rules of the one god. The world is black and white. In the pagan view, things are not so reductive: Aphrodite causes you to fall in love and throw your brains out the window while Apollo calls you to reason and Pan calls you to unbridled lust. To the pagan, this is natural -- at once tragic and comical. To the Christian this may be natural but should, by prayer and devotion, be cleansed of "sin" so that love is pure and ideal.

In the Christian view, reality is an expression of the one god. In the pagan view, reality is an expression of the multiplicity of the psyche. In the Christian view, the "right way" is the issue. In the pagan view, living with our wildy conflicting natures is the objective.

I wanted to add to Obscenwish's excellent post..

If you look through out history, the missionary movement was more sucessful when preaching monotheism to cultures which are predomniantly polytheistic. Since there was no ideal of the uniform "one", these culture were a bit more accepting and open minded to be preached...

Whn you have 2 different montheistic cultures trying to convert eachother, there is usually a lot of conflict and dispute, and in history, even blood and war... Each one group is so stuck in the ideal of "one" that they believe thier personal veiws as the universal truth, and since univeral truth means there is only ONE truth, then the other camp becomes the "infidel," "non-believer," "sinner," etc, etc...

Just look at Islam, Judaism, and Christianity..., all are monotheistic... and they are holding eachothers ground even today, and some are still flighting in blod baths in different parts of the world...

the conflict in between the jews, the muslims and the christains is baffling to me since each religion recognizes the other in some way in each respective bible ...

the koran acknowledges jesus christ not as the son of god but as a prophet.

anyhow, religious bias is essentially insecurity. if one has total faith in what they believe, why give a shit what anyone else chooses to believe.