After marriage rights...

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    Jan 24, 2010 11:02 PM GMT
    and the repeal of DADT, equal adoption rights, anti-discrimination laws, and all of these other contemporary legal and political issues that gays and lesbians face, what do you think will be left to "fight" for in terms of gay rights? Will we ever collectively reach a point when there is little else to demand from heterosexual society?
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    Jan 24, 2010 11:05 PM GMT
    Ask any group who isn't comprised of straight, middle aged White men what they're still fighting for. That's probably what we'll be fighting for, regardless of what laws are passed to give us 'equal' rights.
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    Jan 24, 2010 11:28 PM GMT
    This has already happened in several countries. Remember, legal approbation doesn't mean people cease hating and discriminating.
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    Jan 24, 2010 11:40 PM GMT
    Yogi4Life saidThis has already happened in several countries. Remember, legal approbation doesn't mean people cease hating and discriminating.


    I understand that - I'm just talking about legal and political issues, not the homophobia and religious intolerance. I wonder if gay rights will ever plateau, so to speak.
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    Jan 25, 2010 12:22 AM GMT
    essentialife said
    Yogi4Life saidThis has already happened in several countries. Remember, legal approbation doesn't mean people cease hating and discriminating.


    I understand that - I'm just talking about legal and political issues, not the homophobia and religious intolerance. I wonder if gay rights will ever plateau, so to speak.


    Well, once everyone is on equal footing, what is there left to fight for? I swear people WANT conflict...
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    Jan 25, 2010 12:34 AM GMT

    If the civil rights of non-heterosexual people and families are soon recognized in law throughout the US, there will still be plenty of legal and civil rights work to do outside the US as well as 'hearts and minds' work both within and outside the US.(But I think the "if" may be bigger than we would like - given the timing of the Prop 8 case, the likelihood that it will wind up before the Supreme Court and the current right leaning and illiberal bias of the current court).
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    Jan 25, 2010 12:40 AM GMT
    Enforcement and implementation of those rights should keep activists busy for generations.
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    Jan 25, 2010 12:43 AM GMT
    After we secure rights we're going after reparations. After reparations have been made we're going to implement a program of recruitment for America's youth. When that program is securely in place, we'll be fighting for equality on issues of polygamy/polyamory, incest, bestiality, and the like. All those things the right wing has warned an unsuspecting public about, we'll be doing. Hurry, go warn someone.
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    Jan 25, 2010 12:43 AM GMT
    trimmedlycan saidEnforcement and implementation of those rights should keep activists busy for generations.


    That's depressing icon_sad.gificon_mad.gif.
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    Jan 25, 2010 12:47 AM GMT
    Gradualism is indeed a tranquilizing drug and will temper our progress.
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    Jan 25, 2010 12:53 AM GMT
    There is still a spirit of homophobia and hatred directed against us. It is a cancer that shames this great nation. We will still be fighting for a long time after these issues are solved to cleanse the United States of this stain.
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    Jan 25, 2010 1:04 AM GMT
    lol, well essentiallife, you could always ask guys who are married in another country where those issues have been resolved already....icon_wink.gif
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    Jan 25, 2010 1:15 AM GMT
    meninlove saidlol, well essentiallife, you could always ask guys who are married in another country where those issues have been resolved already....icon_wink.gif


    And where can I find such guys? I'm at a loss, it seems.icon_cool.gif
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    Jan 25, 2010 1:22 AM GMT
    ROFL essentiallife, we like you already! Welcome to Realjock, eh?


    What's happening is that now being gay is about as meaningful and/or scandalous an issue as eye colour. It's been since June27th last year, but we still have the 'just married' sign on the truck simply because of all the huge compliments and enthusiasm we get from people.

    A straight couple stopped to talk to us in a shopping mall parking lot and asked how long we'd been together. We told them and the husband said we should change the sign to 'still married'. lol!


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    Jan 25, 2010 1:31 AM GMT
    It is not the simple statement of facts that ushers in freedom; it is the constant repetition of them that has this liberating effect. Tolerance is the result not of enlightenment, but of boredom.
    Quentin Crisp
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    Jan 25, 2010 1:36 AM GMT
    lol freespirit09, over 10,000 gay marriages since 2004 up here and two divorces.

    Nice to see some Quentin Crisp rather than that other, *coughs*, depressing character.
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    Jan 25, 2010 1:49 AM GMT
    meninlove said ROFL essentiallife, we like you already! Welcome to Realjock, eh?


    What's happening is that now being gay is about as meaningful and/or scandalous an issue as eye colour. It's been since June27th last year, but we still have the 'just married' sign on the truck simply because of all the huge compliments and enthusiasm we get from people.

    A straight couple stopped to talk to us in a shopping mall parking lot and asked how long we'd been together. We told them and the husband said we should change the sign to 'still married'. lol!




    That's awesome. I'm jealous of Canada and Canadians icon_razz.gif. Maybe we'll get the picture soon enough.

    And, it's great to know that you two are together and making it. It gives me hope.icon_wink.gif
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    Jan 25, 2010 1:55 AM GMT
    The world is wide, essentialife, and anything, anything is possible!

    hugs -us two
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    Jan 25, 2010 1:59 AM GMT
    [quote][cite]meninlove said[/cite] lol freespirit09, over 10,000 gay marriages since 2004 up here and two divorces.

    Nice to see some Quentin Crisp rather than that other, *coughs*, depressing character.[/quot


    please excuse me, but Nietzsche is far from depressing, truths hurt or has he would say:

    Truth as Circe.-- Error has transformed animals into men; is truth perhaps capable of changing man back into an animal?

    from Nietzsche's Human, all too Human, s.519, R.J. Hollingdale transl.

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    Jan 25, 2010 2:29 AM GMT
    I would certainly hope rights for gays would reach equivalency and plateau. However, that does not mean that certain religious or other groups will not stop the persecuting gays. That means maintaining an anti-defamation group like gladd .. even when there are laws, they still need to be enforced. This is true of other minority groups. Injustice does not stop just because there are laws to protect you.

    But just as a warning from the past, Homosexuals have been here before. Probably more than these, but here are some from ancient and recent history:

    1)Rome/Greece prior to Christianity. There was a time when homosexuality was not so persecuted in the west. It was not uncommon to have a same-sex lover. Same-sex marriage type relationships existed too. Soon after Constantine showed Christianity favor, laws began to emerge against homosexuals .. first same-sex marriage was banned .. then decades later homosexual activity was banned. While selectively enforced those bans carried down through the centuries passed on from kingdom to kingdom causing much suffering for homosexuals since.

    2)In the 1920's an early organization dedicated to modernizing attitudes towards homosexuals http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific-Humanitarian_Committee also tried removing anti sodomy or gay-sex laws (like we have only recently won through the courts here). But when the Nazi's and Hitler rose to power. Progress was quickly overrun and much of the research burned.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_movements#1860_-_1944
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_persecution_of_homosexuals
    persecution still continued in various forms and as you may know, it has only been in recent decades that gays have made progress that was initially made.

    The moral of the story is that there are always groups out there looking to persecute vulnerable minorities through lies and propaganda. Since gays will always be a perpetual minority (biologically speaking .. we can't purposely create other gays like racial or ethnic groups can) I think they will always run the risk of persecution.
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    Jan 25, 2010 2:32 AM GMT
    lol, free_spirit09, many truths don't hurt at all, and many do the opposite, removing pre-existing hurt completely. icon_wink.gif
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    Jan 25, 2010 2:37 AM GMT
    meninlove said lol, free_spirit09, many truths don't hurt at all, and many do the opposite, removing pre-existing hurt completely. icon_wink.gif


    "What men avoid by excluding the liar is not so much being defrauded as it is being harmed by means of fraud. Thus, even at this stage, what they hate is basically not deception itself, but rather the unpleasant, hated consequences of certain sorts of deception. It is in a similarly restricted sense that man now wants nothing but truth: he desires the pleasant, life-preserving consequences of truth"

    Nietzsche
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    Jan 25, 2010 2:42 AM GMT
    ActiveAndFit saidI would certainly hope rights for gays would reach equivalency and plateau. However, that does not mean that certain religious or other groups will not stop the persecuting gays. That means maintaining an anti-defamation group like gladd .. even when there are laws, they still need to be enforced. This is true of other minority groups. Injustice does not stop just because there are laws to protect you.

    But just as a warning from the past, Homosexuals have been here before. Probably more than these, but here are some from ancient and recent history:

    1)Rome/Greece prior to Christianity. There was a time when homosexuality was not so persecuted in the west. It was not uncommon to have a same-sex lover. Same-sex marriage type relationships existed too. Soon after Constantine showed Christianity favor, laws began to emerge against homosexuals .. first same-sex marriage was banned .. then decades later homosexual activity was banned. While selectively enforced those bans carried down through the centuries passed on from kingdom to kingdom causing much suffering for homosexuals since.

    2)In the 1920's an early organization dedicated to modernizing attitudes towards homosexuals http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific-Humanitarian_Committee also tried removing anti sodomy or gay-sex laws (like we have only recently won through the courts here). But when the Nazi's and Hitler rose to power. Progress was quickly overrun and much of the research burned.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_movements#1860_-_1944
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_persecution_of_homosexuals
    persecution still continued in various forms and as you may know, it has only been in recent decades that gays have made progress that was initially made.

    The moral of the story is that there are always groups out there looking to persecute vulnerable minorities through lies and propaganda. Since gays will always be a perpetual minority (biologically speaking .. we can't purposely create other gays like racial or ethnic groups can) I think they will always run the risk of persecution.







    The greatest danger that always hovered over humanity and still hovers over it is the eruption of madness - which means the eruption of arbitrariness in feeling, seeing and hearing, the enjoyment of the mind's lack of discipline, the joy in human unreason. Not truth and certainty are the opposite of the world of the madman, but the universality and the universal binding force of a faith; in sum, the non-arbitrary character of judgements... Thus the virtuous intellects are needed - oh, let me use the most unambiguous word - what is needed is virtuous stupidity, stolid metronomes for the slow spirit, to make sure that the faithful of the great shared faith stay together and continue their dance... We others are the exception and the danger - and we need eternally to be opposed. - Well, there actually are things to be said in favor of the exception, provided that it never wants to become the rule.

    from Nietzsche's The Gay Science, s. 76, Walter Kaufmann transl.
  • barriehomeboy

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    Jan 25, 2010 3:04 AM GMT
    Keep it in perspective, and reality, boys. A black man in a Mississippi sheriff's office after the equal rights ammendment didn't feel any safer than the same black man in a Mississippi sheriff's office before the equal rights ammendment. You gay boys should all just move to Canada, where being gay, and smoking pot, is legal and accepted. And bring that hot black guy from Mississippi too!
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    Jan 25, 2010 3:14 AM GMT
    free_spirit09, with all due respect, we'd rather hear from you than Neitsche (scuse typo)