Vive La France! Take those damn things off!!!

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    Jan 26, 2010 7:47 PM GMT
    France Moves Toward Ban on Full-Face Veils

    http://www.sphere.com/world/article/france-moves-ahead-on-ban-of-full-face-veils-and-burkas/19332042

    "NICE, France (Jan. 26) -- French lawmakers said Tuesday they want to ban Muslim women from veiling their faces in public facilities, a plan applauded by some French Muslim women but criticized by Muslim leaders, who said it could provoke Islamic extremists in France and abroad.

    A parliamentary panel convened six months ago by French President Nicolas Sarkozy on Tuesday issued a much-anticipated, 200-page report recommending that women be banned from wearing the full-face veil in public office buildings, schools, hospitals and while using mass transit. The full-face veil is viewed by many in France as a sign of extremism and a threat to gender equality and secularism..."
  • DCEric

    Posts: 3713

    Jan 26, 2010 10:46 PM GMT
    Civil liberties. What are those?

    Only an idiot could possibly think this will solve anything, as it is more likely to enrage more people. Much less the fact that the government should have no right to legislate what kind of clothing people wear.
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    Jan 26, 2010 10:52 PM GMT
    DCEric saidCivil liberties. What are those?

    Only an idiot could possibly think this will solve anything, as it is more likely to enrage more people. Much less the fact that the government should have no right to legislate what kind of clothing people wear.


    Yes. What he said. ^^

    I agree completely.

    Not to mention, it just reinforces the Orientalist perspective of the burka in Muslim society, let alone Muslim women in general.
  • DCEric

    Posts: 3713

    Jan 26, 2010 11:06 PM GMT
    MeOhMy said
    DCEric saidCivil liberties. What are those?

    Only an idiot could possibly think this will solve anything, as it is more likely to enrage more people. Much less the fact that the government should have no right to legislate what kind of clothing people wear.


    Yes. What he said. ^^

    I agree completely.

    Not to mention, it just reinforces the Orientalist perspective of the burka in Muslim society, let alone Muslim women in general.


    Yeah, that too.
  • Webster666

    Posts: 9217

    Jan 27, 2010 1:50 AM GMT
    Look at your drivers license.
    Your most reliable identity is your face.
    Show your face.
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    Jan 27, 2010 1:53 AM GMT
    Webster666 saidLook at your drivers license.
    Your most reliable identity is your face.
    Show your face.


    Look who's talking...
  • omatix

    Posts: 89

    Jan 27, 2010 2:04 AM GMT
    Would it be a reasonable law if there were no religious reason to wear full face veils, and it was just a recent fashion?

    Edit: My point is, should things be permitted by a secular government solely because a powerful religion holds them as important? This does not get to the separate question of whether or not full face veils are "bad" in some way, in and of themselves.
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    Jan 27, 2010 2:05 AM GMT
    Omatix saidWould it be a reasonable law if there were no religious reason to wear full face veils, and it was just a recent fashion?


    Good point.

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    Jan 27, 2010 2:27 AM GMT
    Webster666 saidLook at your drivers license.
    Your most reliable identity is your face.
    Show your face.


    From:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niqāb
    Sultaana Freeman gained national attention in 2003 when she sued the U.S. state of Florida for the right to wear a niqāb for her driver's license photo.[41] However, a Florida appellate court ruled that there was no violation in the state requiring her to show her face to a camera in a private room with only a female employee to take the picture, in exchange for the privilege of driving.


    If I can speak on the French aspect of this issue.
    Nicolas Sarkozy said, "In our country, we cannot accept that women be prisoners behind a screen, cut off from all social life, deprived of all identity," Sarkozy said to extended applause of the lawmakers gathered where French kings once held court.

    "The burqa is not a religious sign, it's a sign of subservience, a sign of debasement _ I want to say it solemnly," he said. "It will not be welcome on the territory of the French Republic.”
    ……..
    It was intended that all foreigners who enter France, assimilate French customs. But like so many have said here, how do they legislate something like that?
    Throw into the mix France’s entrenched xenophobia. While France offered citizenship to all of their former colonial subjects, the foreigners have met with open hostility, unemployment and ghettoization in France. If France isn’t there for them, why should the foreigners do what France wants? There were riots in the Paris suburbs in 2005 when two young…arabs, I think…were killed by a police officer.
    Ideally France wants to implement equal treatment for women in their borders, and they see the burqa as a "sign of subservience, a sign of debasement” to women.

    I lived in France in 1996, and watched some of the racism first hand. The French people would accuse the African and Middle Eastern people of stealing from their country (in way of jobs, social services and medical coverage), while so many French people couldn’t find jobs. The country was battling a mounting debt brought on by their health insurance program used by unemployed immigrants granted coverage through law.

    Just for perspective.
  • D972

    Posts: 125

    Jan 27, 2010 2:44 AM GMT
    There appears to be no such thing as a secular government ... if there is one, France certainly doesn't qualify as having one. The towns shut down literally on Sunday, and All saints day (1st of November) is a national (federal) holiday.

    This is all part of the very stupid l'identite Francaise (French Identity) debate that was going on for a while last year. And while I do agree that some integration and respect is needed, the French have had a hard time integrating anything that is not Gaulois (of french origin) in nature. I love my french roots, but sometimes the French can be very big hypocrites.

  • omatix

    Posts: 89

    Jan 27, 2010 2:50 AM GMT
    That's interesting - Sarkozy is not just saying that they can do it for reasons beyond it having any religious association (as he'd say if, for example, having people's faces covered was a problem for security, for example), but he's going so far as to say that he's doing it precisely because of what the religion represents in his view. I think that's interesting, and it's something that would never be seen in the US.

    As a European living in the US, I've come to appreciate that there are two equally valid ways to accept immigrants: accept them on the grounds that your country is accepting of everyone as they are (as the US does), or accept them with it pre-agreed that they are expected to assimilate into the pre-existing society. I think the first method is disingenuous (immigrants clearly do have to adapt to their new country in some ways), and the second ignores the fact that even France's culture is not totally historically homogeneous.

    Like everything else, it probably needs a non-extremist point of view, perhaps based on commonly agreed non-negotiable points. One such non-negotiable point is the notion that women are equal to men. This approach would suggest that women should not be compelled by anyone to act or dress in a way that marks them as less than men. Sarkozy seems to be taking the position that the government must play a part in protecting these women from the men within their own community. I find it hard to disagree with him, to be honest, but then I don't have a lot of respect for tradition for its own sake.
  • omatix

    Posts: 89

    Jan 27, 2010 2:56 AM GMT
    D972 saidThere appears to be no such thing as a secular government ... if there is one, France certainly doesn't qualify as having one. The towns shut down literally on Sunday, and All saints day (1st of November) is a national (federal) holiday.

    This is all part of the very stupid l'identite Francaise (French Identity) debate that was going on for a while last year. And while I do agree that some integration and respect is needed, the French have had a hard time integrating anything that is not Gaulois (of french origin) in nature. I love my french roots, but sometimes the French can be very big hypocrites.



    I think that the French would argue that shutting down on Sunday is a historical remnant. It's not mandated by the government, and it's not that most people go to church. If people are used to having All Saints' Day off, who cares? They want to have a certain number of holidays per year, why arbitrarily move away from one that everyone knows - it could be seen as rewriting history. By analogy, Labor Day exists for historical reasons, and is enjoyed by those who couldn't care less about any of the reasons why it exists.
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    Jan 27, 2010 3:08 AM GMT
    I read this story as well as many others about France in the past year...

    It would seem that France is going thorough a bit of a identity crisis. Theres so much talk on losing the French identity and what it all means to be a Frenchman. I wonder how soon it will be until they implement futher constrains on the citizens.
  • Iluros

    Posts: 559

    Jan 27, 2010 3:09 AM GMT
    Lots of good points raised in this thread.

    Another problem with the policy that comes to mind is that if this is intended to help gender egalitarianism in Muslim communities, it fails at that. If a woman is coerced or herself insistent on wearing a veil, and is restricted on wearing that veil within a given area, then she will probably stay home more and enter the public less. Ultimately this will be more harmful to Muslim women acquiring opportunities and gaining independence from the men in their communities.

    A better approach would be to promote policies that got the women out of their households more, even if they have to wear veils. This would lead to more exposure and in many cases integration with French society.
  • D972

    Posts: 125

    Jan 27, 2010 3:14 AM GMT
    I don't believe you can compare labor day (which they have also in France), and La Fete de Toussaint (All saints day). Apples and oranges. If they were truly a secular government, they would just stick to days that didn't have any religious association. Looking at the use of a religious holiday when ordained is irrelevant. As for changing or re-writing history, isn't that exactly what the french are asking of the arab women? It is part of their culture... but they must adapt to the French's standards.



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    Jan 27, 2010 3:16 AM GMT
    I think that the French would argue that shutting down on Sunday is a historical remnant. It's not mandated by the government, and it's not that most people go to church. If people are used to having All Saints' Day off, who cares? They want to have a certain number of holidays per year, why arbitrarily move away from one that everyone knows - it could be seen as rewriting history. By analogy, Labor Day exists for historical reasons, and is enjoyed by those who couldn't care less about any of the reasons why it exists.

    From what I experienced, the French want as many holidays as possible. They love their leisure time. Looong lunches! If they could get away with making a national holiday commemorating Charles de Gaulle’s first haircut, they would!icon_biggrin.gif
    They will hold on to those holy days too!
  • D972

    Posts: 125

    Jan 27, 2010 3:19 AM GMT
    And to top it all off, all this hostility towards immigrants, and Sarkozy's family is from Budapest... hungarian nobility...
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    Jan 27, 2010 3:21 AM GMT
    Wow all I see in here is a bunch of people who want to impose American outlooks on French culture.

    This issue is infinitely more problematic than anything Americans can comprehend as this has NOTHING to do with civil liberties and EVERYTHING to do with social construction of the Republic.
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    Jan 27, 2010 3:21 AM GMT
    Ricovelas saidI read this story as well as many others about France in the past year...

    It would seem that France is going thorough a bit of a identity crisis. Theres so much talk on losing the French identity and what it all means to be a Frenchman. I wonder how soon it will be until they implement futher constrains on the citizens.


    France has begun legislation on differentiating between “true/native French” and “naturalized French.” What happens next? I wonder if deportation might be far down the road?

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    Jan 27, 2010 3:21 AM GMT
    n8698u saidI think that the French would argue that shutting down on Sunday is a historical remnant. It's not mandated by the government, and it's not that most people go to church. If people are used to having All Saints' Day off, who cares? They want to have a certain number of holidays per year, why arbitrarily move away from one that everyone knows - it could be seen as rewriting history. By analogy, Labor Day exists for historical reasons, and is enjoyed by those who couldn't care less about any of the reasons why it exists.

    From what I experienced, the French want as many holidays as possible. They love their leisure time. Looong lunches! If they could get away with making a national holiday commemorating Charles de Gaulle’s first haircut, they would!icon_biggrin.gif
    They will hold on to those holy days too!

    Your blabber is idiotic.
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    Jan 27, 2010 3:22 AM GMT
    n8698u saidFrance has begun legislation on differentiating between “true/native French” and “naturalized French.” What happens next? I wonder if deportation might be far down the road?

    That "legislation" is from LePen and will never see the light of day. It is pure laughter in any governmental circle. We would need a larger lunatic que notre cher Sarko for this to even be brought to the table.
  • D972

    Posts: 125

    Jan 27, 2010 3:24 AM GMT
    Pinny saidWow all I see in here is a bunch of people who want to impose American outlooks on French culture.

    This issue is infinitely more problematic than anything Americans can comprehend as this has NOTHING to do with civil liberties and EVERYTHING to do with social construction of the Republic.


    Nice of you to make a very general statement without much explanation ... dive into more detail please.
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    Jan 27, 2010 3:25 AM GMT
    Pinny said
    n8698u saidI think that the French would argue that shutting down on Sunday is a historical remnant. It's not mandated by the government, and it's not that most people go to church. If people are used to having All Saints' Day off, who cares? They want to have a certain number of holidays per year, why arbitrarily move away from one that everyone knows - it could be seen as rewriting history. By analogy, Labor Day exists for historical reasons, and is enjoyed by those who couldn't care less about any of the reasons why it exists.

    From what I experienced, the French want as many holidays as possible. They love their leisure time. Looong lunches! If they could get away with making a national holiday commemorating Charles de Gaulle’s first haircut, they would!icon_biggrin.gif
    They will hold on to those holy days too!

    Your blabber is idiotic.


    I know. I meant it to be. But there is some truth in the love of their leisure time.
    There was a report on NPR about how productivity in France has slowed due to extended lunch hours.
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    Jan 27, 2010 3:27 AM GMT
    n8698u said
    I know. I meant it to be. But there is some truth in the love of their leisure time.
    There was a report on NPR about how productivity in France has slowed due to extended lunch hours.

    On an industrial level, no it hasn't. At an artisan level, probably. Then again, the French have not had their lunch hour extended since the establishment of the 5th Republic.
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    Jan 27, 2010 8:48 AM GMT
    MeOhMy said
    Webster666 saidLook at your drivers license.
    Your most reliable identity is your face.
    Show your face.


    Look who's talking...


    God damn, you're amazing.