Why Religion Matters in the Quest for Gay Civil Rights: Rev. Gene Robinson

  • metta

    Posts: 39144

    Jan 31, 2010 8:28 AM GMT
    What a pleasure to listen to..... icon_smile.gif

    Why Religion Matters in the Quest for Gay Civil Rights: Rev. Gene Robinson

    Part 1




  • metta

    Posts: 39144

    Jan 31, 2010 9:05 AM GMT


    Part 2





    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31CtEDlbtLE

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    Jan 31, 2010 3:25 PM GMT
    What the really important thing is that we move away from, above, and beyond, false belief systems. Throughout history, they have caused most catastrophic problems among civilization. It's important we stop the brain washing and move towards truth-based systems. Even in the best of times, false belief systems prey upon the weak-minded, and are so often vehicles of hate, intolerance, misinformation, contempt, war, terrorism / gang violence, and falsehoods. Truth-based system serve man in a much better way.
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    Jan 31, 2010 4:08 PM GMT
    chuckystud saidWhat the really important thing is that we move away from, above, and beyond, false belief systems. Throughout history, they have caused most catastrophic problems among civilization. It's important we stop the brain washing and move towards truth-based systems. Even in the best of times, false belief systems prey upon the weak-minded, and are so often vehicles of hate, intolerance, misinformation, contempt, war, terrorism / gang violence, and falsehoods. Truth-based system serve man in a much better way.


    As if humans ever needed a belief more complex than "my nation is better than yours" in order to go to war with other nations. Hitler did just fine brainwashing his followers into believing that their people were better than the rest without the use of a "God" figure. His godless people committed the atrocity of mass genocide against a group of people for no more than that they did not have blonde hair and blue eyes. icon_confused.gif

    Humans are just as capable of committing atrocities while following no belief system as they are with them. So what's your point?


    EDIT: And on truth. How about the truth that "Love works no ill toward a neighbor and, therefore, love is the fulfillment of the law." Those words were spoken by Jesus Christ, the leader of Christianity himself. So when you see "Christians" whose thoughts are full of malice and actions produce nothing but harm that should be enough to tell that they themselves don't even believe. Because if they did, they wouldn't be so full of hatred.

  • metta

    Posts: 39144

    Jan 31, 2010 4:13 PM GMT
    @chucky^
    that may never happen or could even take thousands of years. I think that it would be better for us to work with what we have. We do have religious people that support us. We need to make that grow. As that grows, that makes it harder for the Repubicans to keep the position that they do. Once, we get a big chunk of the Republicans to change their positon (it does not even have to be a majority of them), that will give us the votes that we need to make the big changes happen.

    Rev. Gene Robinson makes some wonderful points that I have never heard before.
  • BeingThePhoen...

    Posts: 1157

    Jan 31, 2010 4:39 PM GMT
    RyanReBoRn said
    chuckystud saidWhat the really important thing is that we move away from, above, and beyond, false belief systems. Throughout history, they have caused most catastrophic problems among civilization. It's important we stop the brain washing and move towards truth-based systems. Even in the best of times, false belief systems prey upon the weak-minded, and are so often vehicles of hate, intolerance, misinformation, contempt, war, terrorism / gang violence, and falsehoods. Truth-based system serve man in a much better way.


    As if humans ever needed a belief more complex than "my nation is better than yours" in order to go to war with other nations. Hitler did just fine brainwashing his followers into believing that their people were better than the rest without the use of a "God" figure. His godless people committed the atrocity of mass genocide against a group of people for no more than that they did not have blonde hair and blue eyes. icon_confused.gif

    Humans are just as capable of committing atrocities while following no belief system as they are with them. So what's your point?


    EDIT: And on truth. How about the truth that "Love works no ill toward a neighbor and, therefore, love is the fulfillment of the law." Those words were spoken by Jesus Christ, the leader of Christianity himself. So when you see "Christians" whose thoughts are full of malice and actions produce nothing but harm that should be enough to tell that they themselves don't even believe. Because if they did, they wouldn't be so full of hatred.



    You have actually just proven Chucky's point. Though he did not invoke "GOD", Hitler touted his people as an almost godlike race, and therefore the only race worth existing. Regardless of the methods, a false belief system is a false belief system, whether "GOD" is mentioned or not.
  • BeingThePhoen...

    Posts: 1157

    Jan 31, 2010 4:43 PM GMT
    metta8 said@chucky^
    that may never happen or could even take thousands of years. I think that it would be better for us to work with what we have. We do have religious people that support us. We need to make that grow. As that grows, that makes it harder for the Repubicans to keep the position that they do. Once, we get a big chunk of the Republicans to change their positon (it does not even have to be a majority of them), that will give us the votes that we need to make the big changes happen.

    Rev. Gene Robinson makes some wonderful points that I have never heard before.


    Very true statements, but I can't help but to wonder if it isn't a bit like making a deal with the devil. Yes, it would promote our agenda, but it also promoted the continued existence of a man-made belief system that was created in order to control the minds, and by proxy the lives of men.
  • metta

    Posts: 39144

    Jan 31, 2010 4:49 PM GMT
    BeingThePhoenix said
    metta8 said@chucky^
    that may never happen or could even take thousands of years. I think that it would be better for us to work with what we have. We do have religious people that support us. We need to make that grow. As that grows, that makes it harder for the Repubicans to keep the position that they do. Once, we get a big chunk of the Republicans to change their positon (it does not even have to be a majority of them), that will give us the votes that we need to make the big changes happen.

    Rev. Gene Robinson makes some wonderful points that I have never heard before.


    Very true statements, but I can't help but to wonder if it isn't a bit like making a deal with the devil. Yes, it would promote our agenda, but it also promoted the continued existence of a man-made belief system that was created in order to control the minds, and by proxy the lives of men.


    Some people need more structure than others (example: 12 step programs). It is more important that these structures change to not harm others. The structures themselves are not going to disapear. I don't think that it is realistic to expect them to.
  • BeingThePhoen...

    Posts: 1157

    Jan 31, 2010 4:53 PM GMT
    metta8 said
    BeingThePhoenix said
    metta8 said@chucky^
    that may never happen or could even take thousands of years. I think that it would be better for us to work with what we have. We do have religious people that support us. We need to make that grow. As that grows, that makes it harder for the Repubicans to keep the position that they do. Once, we get a big chunk of the Republicans to change their positon (it does not even have to be a majority of them), that will give us the votes that we need to make the big changes happen.

    Rev. Gene Robinson makes some wonderful points that I have never heard before.


    Very true statements, but I can't help but to wonder if it isn't a bit like making a deal with the devil. Yes, it would promote our agenda, but it also promoted the continued existence of a man-made belief system that was created in order to control the minds, and by proxy the lives of men.


    Some people need more structure than others (example: 12 step programs). It is more important that these structures change to not harm others. The structures themselves are not going to disapear. I don't think that it is realistic to expect them to.

    I could not agree more, but to continue to promote a structure based on a false belief system is extremely dangerous. Hitler brought structure to a defeated Germany, but did so using a false belief system and because of the power that brought him, he created some of the worst atrocities ever.
  • metta

    Posts: 39144

    Jan 31, 2010 5:08 PM GMT
    BeingThePhoenix said
    metta8 said
    BeingThePhoenix said
    metta8 said@chucky^
    that may never happen or could even take thousands of years. I think that it would be better for us to work with what we have. We do have religious people that support us. We need to make that grow. As that grows, that makes it harder for the Repubicans to keep the position that they do. Once, we get a big chunk of the Republicans to change their positon (it does not even have to be a majority of them), that will give us the votes that we need to make the big changes happen.

    Rev. Gene Robinson makes some wonderful points that I have never heard before.


    Very true statements, but I can't help but to wonder if it isn't a bit like making a deal with the devil. Yes, it would promote our agenda, but it also promoted the continued existence of a man-made belief system that was created in order to control the minds, and by proxy the lives of men.


    Some people need more structure than others (example: 12 step programs). It is more important that these structures change to not harm others. The structures themselves are not going to disapear. I don't think that it is realistic to expect them to.

    I could not agree more, but to continue to promote a structure based on a false belief system is extremely dangerous. Hitler brought structure to a defeated Germany, but did so using a false belief system and because of the power that brought him, he created some of the worst atrocities ever.



    I'm not asking people to promote a structure. I'm asking people to be respectful of people that support that structure. And for those that do believe in that structure, to look for ways to believe in it wihout harming others.
  • B71115

    Posts: 482

    Jan 31, 2010 5:17 PM GMT
    metta8 said@chucky^
    that may never happen or could even take thousands of years. I think that it would be better for us to work with what we have. We do have religious people that support us. We need to make that grow. As that grows, that makes it harder for the Repubicans to keep the position that they do. Once, we get a big chunk of the Republicans to change their positon (it does not even have to be a majority of them), that will give us the votes that we need to make the big changes happen.

    Rev. Gene Robinson makes some wonderful points that I have never heard before.


    You'd be well advised to work on the Democrats, too.
  • BeingThePhoen...

    Posts: 1157

    Jan 31, 2010 5:19 PM GMT
    metta8 said



    I'm not asking people to promote a structure. I'm asking people to be respectful of people that support that structure. And for those that do believe in that structure, to look for ways to believe in it wihout harming others.


    I always try to be respectful of the people who happen to agree with a particular structure, but it is quite a different thing to be respectful of a structure itself when you feel that it is the most dangerous weapon mankind has ever invented. I agree, some people need structure of this type, but that it why it is so dangerous when that structure is based on lies and superstition.

    Keep in mind, I am not debating the existance of a god. I would never be so presumptuous, but this man-made structure that was based on the possibility of a god giving man all of the answers he needs in life is dangerous to its core. It is man controling man by tapping at the supernatural fears of men.
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    Jan 31, 2010 5:23 PM GMT
    [quote][cite]BeingThePhoenix said
    You have actually just proven Chucky's point. Though he did not invoke "GOD", Hitler touted his people as an almost godlike race, and therefore the only race worth existing. Regardless of the methods, a false belief system is a false belief system, whether "GOD" is mentioned or not.[/quote]
    This would include anyone who stood for something they believed and encouraged others to join the cause. A false belief system would or could include a belief that homosexuals should be able to marry. If the majority of Americans were to buy into this, the conservative Christians would be making the same point, that people are being brain-washed into believing this untruth. Oh wait, we have that now! I disagree with Chucky that in a civilized world we need to rid ourselves of these 'false belief systems'. Belief systems can hold inspiration and hope for the same group of people that Chucky feels are influenced, those who need someone to reach out to them and offer support to them. Belief systems are what they are in any fashion, the problem exists when people are too ignorant to think for themselves and only buy into what a person dictates without evaluation and consideration of how their belief system (false or not) would harm or affect the rights and fairness of others in our society. Religion is NOT a false belief system, it's a belief system where many have not taken an opportunity, out of ignorance and laziness, to learn what their own belief system entails. The video is an outstanding example of how this particular belief system (Christianity) has influenced others without respect to truly understanding the basis it uses (the Bible) for it's justification. More Christians need to hear this message to understand how far OFF base their own leaders are when preaching hatred and misinformation from the pulpit. Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water, let's clean the water so that others benefit from all the good that is done by the same belief system. And I believe that there is a LOT of good done by people who truly do care about their fellow humans as Christians around the world.

    Thanks for sharing the video metta8!
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    Jan 31, 2010 5:38 PM GMT
    RyanReBoRn saidEDIT: And on truth. How about the truth that "Love works no ill toward a neighbor and, therefore, love is the fulfillment of the law." Those words were spoken by Jesus Christ, the leader of Christianity himself. So when you see "Christians" whose thoughts are full of malice and actions produce nothing but harm that should be enough to tell that they themselves don't even believe. Because if they did, they wouldn't be so full of hatred.
    Even though that sounds like a good idea, Actually those words were spoken by the anonymous author of the letter to the Romans (Romans 13:10) not Jesus. Jesus did though say something to the effect that there was no higher obligation of the law than to love others.

    Is the bible "the word of God?" Really it is the words of men and their ideas about God among other things. It is important to understand these things because too often people will not think for themselves or perpetuate a bad idea just because "the bible told me so"

    See "Misquoting Jesus" and "Jesus Interrupted" for an authoritative view on this:
    http://www.amazon.com/Misquoting-Jesus-Story-Behind-Changed/dp/0060738170
    http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Interrupted-Revealing-Hidden-Contradictions/dp/0061173932/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_b
  • BeingThePhoen...

    Posts: 1157

    Jan 31, 2010 5:41 PM GMT
    eb925guy said[quote][cite]BeingThePhoenix said
    You have actually just proven Chucky's point. Though he did not invoke "GOD", Hitler touted his people as an almost godlike race, and therefore the only race worth existing. Regardless of the methods, a false belief system is a false belief system, whether "GOD" is mentioned or not.

    This would include anyone who stood for something they believed and encouraged others to join the cause. A false belief system would or could include a belief that homosexuals should be able to marry. If the majority of Americans were to buy into this, the conservative Christians would be making the same point, that people are being brain-washed into believing this untruth. Oh wait, we have that now! I disagree with Chucky that in a civilized world we need to rid ourselves of these 'false belief systems'. Belief systems can hold inspiration and hope for the same group of people that Chucky feels are influenced, those who need someone to reach out to them and offer support to them. Belief systems are what they are in any fashion, the problem exists when people are too ignorant to think for themselves and only buy into what a person dictates without evaluation and consideration of how their belief system (false or not) would harm or affect the rights and fairness of others in our society. Religion is NOT a false belief system, it's a belief system where many have not taken an opportunity, out of ignorance and laziness, to learn what their own belief system entails. The video is an outstanding example of how this particular belief system (Christianity) has influenced others without respect to truly understanding the basis it uses (the Bible) for it's justification. More Christians need to hear this message to understand how far OFF base their own leaders are when preaching hatred and misinformation from the pulpit. Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water, let's clean the water so that others benefit from all the good that is done by the same belief system. And I believe that there is a LOT of good done by people who truly do care about their fellow humans as Christians around the world.

    Thanks for sharing the video metta8![/quote]

    There is a problem with your logic. Ancient people were open with their sexuality. The invention of organized religion was when people began to find issue with homosexuality. Even today, when you ask someone why gay rights should not be given to homosexuals, 9.5 times out of 10 the answer is based on the Bible.

    And yes, religion is a false belief system. It is man pretending to be in communication with an entity that may or may not exist. It is man-kind pretending to have knowledge of what they may never understand. Take "GOD" out of religion and what do you have? A rational conversation... instead of a "I know better than you do, because I read the Bible" conversation.
  • BeingThePhoen...

    Posts: 1157

    Jan 31, 2010 5:48 PM GMT
    The truth about Christianity: Evidence that the Christian God is not even an original concept...
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    Jan 31, 2010 6:18 PM GMT
    RyanReBoRn said
    chuckystud saidWhat the really important thing is that we move away from, above, and beyond, false belief systems. Throughout history, they have caused most catastrophic problems among civilization. It's important we stop the brain washing and move towards truth-based systems. Even in the best of times, false belief systems prey upon the weak-minded, and are so often vehicles of hate, intolerance, misinformation, contempt, war, terrorism / gang violence, and falsehoods. Truth-based system serve man in a much better way.


    As if humans ever needed a belief more complex than "my nation is better than yours" in order to go to war with other nations. Hitler did just fine brainwashing his followers into believing that their people were better than the rest without the use of a "God" figure. His godless people committed the atrocity of mass genocide against a group of people for no more than that they did not have blonde hair and blue eyes. icon_confused.gif

    Humans are just as capable of committing atrocities while following no belief system as they are with them. So what's your point?


    EDIT: And on truth. How about the truth that "Love works no ill toward a neighbor and, therefore, love is the fulfillment of the law." Those words were spoken by Jesus Christ, the leader of Christianity himself. So when you see "Christians" whose thoughts are full of malice and actions produce nothing but harm that should be enough to tell that they themselves don't even believe. Because if they did, they wouldn't be so full of hatred.



    Actually, I'm afraid you're not versed in your history. Hitler exploited the widely held false belief of Catholics that Jews were inferior. You need to review your history so you don't look ignorant. It's the classic example of Comformance Theory in false belief systems. Back to the book, Little Buddy. I'm afraid your lack of study has made you look a bit ignorant. False belief systems PREY upon ignorant folks. Hitler sold the false belief that Germans were a superior race, and that Jews were, in fact, worthy of extermination. Although Hitler didn't invoke "God" as the founder of his cult / false belief it works in the same way as religion / cults...it has NO BASIS IN FACT. One false belief system is not inherently better than another, and, in fact, they are all dangerous, because of the very fact they are false. No matter if "God", "Jesus", "Allah", "Joesph Smith", etc is invoked in the recitation of the indoctrination, they STILL are false belief systems. You just weren't thinking clearly. As a man of color, I would hope you would understand how very dangerous false belief systems can be...THEY'RE FALSE.
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    Jan 31, 2010 6:18 PM GMT
    BeingThePhoenix said
    There is a problem with your logic. Ancient people were open with their sexuality. The invention of organized religion was when people began to find issue with homosexuality. Even today, when you ask someone why gay rights should not be given to homosexuals, 9.5 times out of 10 the answer is based on the Bible.

    And yes, religion is a false belief system. It is man pretending to be in communication with an entity that may or may not exist. It is man-kind pretending to have knowledge of what they may never understand. Take "GOD" out of religion and what do you have? A rational conversation... instead of a "I know better than you do, because I read the Bible" conversation.
    Well, I'm not going to debate you on whether Christianity is a false belief system or not, that's your opinion of which I do not endorse and I'm sure we could, as has been done here before, throw rude comments against each other on this issue. I don't believe "The invention of organized religion was when people began to find issue with homosexuality." I do believe that changes have occurred within Christianity due to the suppression of sexuality (IE: puritan views) however am a firm believer that those who refer to the Bible as their reason for discriminating and/or viewing homosexuality as wrong is due to ignorance and mis (or dis) information about their own religion. The video is very good at pointing out this point.

    In my opinion, an attitude of labeling any belief system as false because a person does not subscribe to that system's beliefs is as dangerous as a believer categorically dismissing homosexuality because the believer doesn't know or understand what being gay is. Christianity is NOT about anyone saying "I know better than you do, because I read the Bible". This kind of statement is a kin to saying 'all gays walk around with assless chaps, boas and makeup on because I saw it on the front page of the local paper the day after the Pride Parade'. As I mentioned before, ignorance is a big problem within religion and the video, again, really does emphasize the need to educate society better than the church has done.

    I respect your opinions, however I do not share them at all. I think they tend to be too categorically collective and closed. The fact that churches and their members are beginning to recognize and understand and act against the church's tradition of opposing homosexuality is evidence that the message as portrayed in the video is educating some, albeit a ways yet to go.
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    Jan 31, 2010 6:31 PM GMT
    I don't care what system people use as an excuse to treat people decently or with kindness, as long as they don't use it as an excuse to commit evil
  • BeingThePhoen...

    Posts: 1157

    Jan 31, 2010 6:42 PM GMT
    eb925guy said
    BeingThePhoenix said
    There is a problem with your logic. Ancient people were open with their sexuality. The invention of organized religion was when people began to find issue with homosexuality. Even today, when you ask someone why gay rights should not be given to homosexuals, 9.5 times out of 10 the answer is based on the Bible.

    And yes, religion is a false belief system. It is man pretending to be in communication with an entity that may or may not exist. It is man-kind pretending to have knowledge of what they may never understand. Take "GOD" out of religion and what do you have? A rational conversation... instead of a "I know better than you do, because I read the Bible" conversation.
    Well, I'm not going to debate you on whether Christianity is a false belief system or not, that's your opinion of which I do not endorse and I'm sure we could, as has been done here before, throw rude comments against each other on this issue. I don't believe "The invention of organized religion was when people began to find issue with homosexuality." I do believe that changes have occurred within Christianity due to the suppression of sexuality (IE: puritan views) however am a firm believer that those who refer to the Bible as their reason for discriminating and/or viewing homosexuality as wrong is due to ignorance and mis (or dis) information about their own religion. The video is very good at pointing out this point.

    In my opinion, an attitude of labeling any belief system as false because a person does not subscribe to that system's beliefs is as dangerous as a believer categorically dismissing homosexuality because the believer doesn't know or understand what being gay is. Christianity is NOT about anyone saying "I know better than you do, because I read the Bible". This kind of statement is a kin to saying 'all gays walk around with assless chaps, boas and makeup on because I saw it on the front page of the local paper the day after the Pride Parade'. As I mentioned before, ignorance is a big problem within religion and the video, again, really does emphasize the need to educate society better than the church has done.

    I respect your opinions, however I do not share them at all. I think they tend to be too categorically collective and closed. The fact that churches and their members are beginning to recognize and understand and act against the church's tradition of opposing homosexuality is evidence that the message as portrayed in the video is educating some, albeit a ways yet to go.


    Actually, I have seen this coming for years. Organized religion is on a downward slope and the pews are losing warm bodies to fill them. I find it a bit more than odd that now that people are leaving the church and that recruiting is such a problem...only now are leaders of the church (collectively speaking) beginning to rethink the approach.

    It is no big secret that the worst of the worlds atrocities are because of organized religion. Yes, the Bible has some good attributes, but that does not negate the fact that it also lists brutal repercussions to certain "SINS" and justifies it using the fear of the existance of a vengeful god.
  • BeingThePhoen...

    Posts: 1157

    Jan 31, 2010 6:47 PM GMT
    What really ticks me off is that recruitment focuses on children. If a child believes in Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny, is it really to much of a stretch to convince them of the existance of a loving and vengeful "GOD"?

    EDIT:
    This is why so many never question religion, because they were programmed from childhood to believe. Teach the children that the sky is green...the world will begin to see that the sky is green.
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    Jan 31, 2010 6:49 PM GMT
    We're now also on a site with millions of members, the majority of them straight, and you know what?
    There is a heavily christian, muslim, jewish, buddhist etc etc influence there (a seemingly vast number being in the US) that is completely supportive of gay equality right up to and including marriage. Especially christians. The site is world-wide and has been a real eye-opener. There are lots of bigots too, that can say whatever they like but have to keep it relatively PG-13, lol! Amazing what happens when bigots are forced to be polite.

    You'd all hate it, because there are moderators.


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    Jan 31, 2010 7:14 PM GMT
    BeingThePhoenix saidThe truth about Christianity: Evidence that the Christian God is not even an original concept...
    Indeed the notion of a Triune God was foreign to the original followers of Jesus who were monotheistic Jews, but the thing that bothers me about the Zeitgeist video is its new age conspiracy view that the government is covering up 9/11 and that the federal reserve is evil.

    Also Zeitgeist is factually incorrect is so many places. It is about as factual as the DaVinci Code. Ironically many of the people that go for the Zeitgeist thing can be just as gullible about it as some religious people.
    http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/09-02-25The Greatest Story Ever Garbled

    by Tim Callahan

    Perhaps the worst aspect of “The Greatest Story Ever Told,” Part I of Peter Joseph’s Internet film, Zeitgeist, is that some of what it asserts is true. Unfortunately, this material is liberally — and sloppily — mixed with material that is only partially true and much that is plainly and simply bogus.
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    Jan 31, 2010 7:20 PM GMT
    BeingThePhoenix said
    RyanReBoRn said
    chuckystud saidWhat the really important thing is that we move away from, above, and beyond, false belief systems. Throughout history, they have caused most catastrophic problems among civilization. It's important we stop the brain washing and move towards truth-based systems. Even in the best of times, false belief systems prey upon the weak-minded, and are so often vehicles of hate, intolerance, misinformation, contempt, war, terrorism / gang violence, and falsehoods. Truth-based system serve man in a much better way.


    As if humans ever needed a belief more complex than "my nation is better than yours" in order to go to war with other nations. Hitler did just fine brainwashing his followers into believing that their people were better than the rest without the use of a "God" figure. His godless people committed the atrocity of mass genocide against a group of people for no more than that they did not have blonde hair and blue eyes. icon_confused.gif

    Humans are just as capable of committing atrocities while following no belief system as they are with them. So what's your point?


    EDIT: And on truth. How about the truth that "Love works no ill toward a neighbor and, therefore, love is the fulfillment of the law." Those words were spoken by Jesus Christ, the leader of Christianity himself. So when you see "Christians" whose thoughts are full of malice and actions produce nothing but harm that should be enough to tell that they themselves don't even believe. Because if they did, they wouldn't be so full of hatred.



    You have actually just proven Chucky's point. Though he did not invoke "GOD", Hitler touted his people as an almost godlike race, and therefore the only race worth existing. Regardless of the methods, a false belief system is a false belief system, whether "GOD" is mentioned or not.


    But it was also a gay movment that helped put Hitler into power. With the promise of equality for homosexuals, as one of Hitler's closest friends was a homosexual, and he held camps for men that encouraged men to explore their homosexuality. But the "Night of the long Knifes" put an end to all of that, and the dream of equality. People need to be aware of people in power who will make them such promises and asked why?

    But then some people can want something so much, it can blind them, and they will ignore other dark forces, to have their dream fulfilled.
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    Jan 31, 2010 7:30 PM GMT
    Pattison saidBut it was also a gay movment that helped put Hitler into power. With the promise of equality for homosexuals, as one of Hitler's closest friends was a homosexual, and he held camps for men that encouraged men to explore their homosexuality. But the "Night of the long Knifes" put an end to all of that, and the dream of equality. People need to be aware of people in power who will make them such promises and asked why?

    But then some people can want something so much, it can blind them, and they will ignore other dark forces, to have their dream fulfilled.
    That is a bunch of homophobic nonsense from the religious right. Coming from someone who keeps touting being "a true blue" aussie and "pure" despite the fact that the only true "aussies" are aborigines I find this beyond ridiculous. You can take your neo-nazi views and ignorance and shove them. Seeing how much you express you hatred of gays, I am not surprised you would espouse the phony views of hate groups ..
    http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2009/06/17/anti-gay-conspiracy-theories-debunked-by-christian-professor/

    Thousands of homosexuals in concentration camps and hundreds of thousands of "accused homosexuals" in prison pretty much nullify your idiotic view that homosexuals instigated the holocaust or put Hitler in power.

    You are the one of the few people I know on here that espouse supremacists views of your "pure aussie" heritage. Your continued bragging on being "true blue" (and blond apparently) and "pure" is a little too close to "master race" to be trustworthy. I am finally understanding why you called Obama "the hidden muslim"