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I'm gay and in the military and I was wondering what is your stand on homosexuals in the military?
"Gay soldiers need to shoot straight, not be straight." Hillary Clinton 2003

Good quote...

I think its stupid to prevent people from protecting their country, for any reason.

I'm all for it. I don't think it's anyone's business who the next man/woman is with in the privacy of their own home. I think gays in the military should be allowed to be out of the closet and be themselves. I was in the Air Force and I have a friend that is still in that is gay. I had to hide my sexuality the entire time I was in the Air Force, luckily I'm masculine so it wasn't much of a problem but I still wish that I was able to openly like guys and let it be known that I like guys. Maybe I would be out of the closet right now if I was able to start my "gay life" sooner...

i just wish they didn't have to hide being gay- im from Annapolis, MD, and was raised near the naval academy. on fridays, there would be hundreds of middies at the annapolis mall... all of them tall, strong, and gorgeous- especially in ther uniforms. i had girlfriends in school who'd snag middies as dates to prom and stuff, and i was always so jealous- i always wanted a midshipman as a boyfriend, but though i know gay ones exist, you'd never know it. huge sexual frustration lol

Almost any kind of military man is hot. I was in denial when I was in the military and I was stationed at a Special Ops base... FUCKIN-A, hot men galore! I used to have a hard-on every minute of the day that I was awake. And don't get me started on the men in the base gym... All the muscular combat troops walking around in their uniforms that were too tight because of all their muscles... why, oh why didn't I stop lying to myself and start sleeping with men back then? LOL, I can only imagine the men in Annapolis... and I'm a sucker for a white guy in uniform too... I think I need to log off and watch some porn. LOL

Gays in the military is a silly topic...for them to grouse about
we've always been there...we're there now and we'll always be there
they need to get over their stupid frat house boys club mentality

My stand on the toppic is a big THANK YOU!! Thank you to all of our LGBT sisters and brothers for all they do in the military.

I see soldiers on the news all the time returning home from the war. You see straight soldiers and their loved ones reuniting at the aiports and on the docks when the Navy ships come in. I never see gay couples reuniting. It's very sad to me.

I also saw a report on the news of gay civilians on a separate side of the docks waving rainbow flags as the ships headed toward the main docking area, in honor of the returning LGBT soldiers.

Again, thank you.

I think the problem with gays in the military is that the "old" dogs are still running the military. These are people that think that there is a "liberal" agenda and do understand that the United States is supposed to be a free country...with freedom of speech, freedom or religion, and freedom of expression. The military by its very nature discourages anything that is free form, so-to-speak.
I think a lot of the younger people know gays, aren't afraid of gays, and understand the difference and are tolerant of gays. But, when you have idiots like Jerry Falwell going around spouting off that gay people are responsible for the decline in morals in this country and especially for Sept 11 bombing...well, what do you expect? I am all for gay people who want to serve their country.

I can't believe how our illustrious government has discharged rare arabic translators in the military just because they were gay. I mean, my GOD, there's lives and national security at stake, and they're going to kick valuable intelligence assents to the curb just because of their sexuality?!
It's ridiculous!

Great quote. But Hillary never said it. It was Barry Goldwater.

My, how the conservative movement has changed track since his time!

Hard to believe that, as Sec. of Defense some 20 years ago, it was Dick Cheney who said that the reasons for banning gays from the military were "old chestnuts" (too bad he didn't do more than just say that).

Another great quote, by Leonard Matlovich:

"When I was in the military, they gave me a medal for killing two men, and a discharge for loving one"


Colbert_Nation> discharged rare arabic translators in the military just because they were gay

Still better than what would happen to gay Arab soldiers in an Arab military, but still makes you wonder how different we are (or at least the religious right is) from "them" (the Islamic fundamentalist terrorist enemy). Which I think was Tommyboy10's point.

I think it's cool !

i spent 7 years active duty in the USAF. i think the policy against gays is about as brilliant as prohibiting people with blue eyes since blue eyes might stand out more than brown eyes.

it's the mentality of someone that got their bowels misdirected and their sh*t fills up their head and comes out of their face instead of their ass.

Serving in Active Duty, the large majority of the guys and girls out there could care less. However many straight men have a tendency to show off by proclaiming thier heterosexulity by bullying others with gay-hateful terms. The policy will fall eventually, maybe even soon. I'll be out by then, but many of my brothers and sisters will be relieved.

I spent 20 years in the reserves and did my time in Iraq. I don't think people should be able to serve openly gay in the military. Don't ask don't tell is a good policy far as im concerned. As with anything else in life what you do on your free time is your business. Given the mentality of many gay men i.e. judging men based on looks i find it deifficult many gay men in that environemtn can be fair based on merit.

Bottom line is the work place is for work not flirting so if a guy/girl has the ability to focus on the mission at hand then sexual prefernece should be no issue.

I spent 20 years in the reserves and did my time in Iraq. I don't think people should be able to serve openly gay in the military. Don't ask don't tell is a good policy far as im concerned. As with anything else in life what you do on your free time is your business. Given the mentality of many gay men i.e. judging men based on looks i find it deifficult many gay men in that environemtn can be fair based on merit.

Bottom line is the work place is for work not flirting so if a guy/girl has the ability to focus on the mission at hand then sexual prefernece should be no issue.

docbailey> Don't ask don't tell is a good policy far as im concerned. As with anything else in life what you do on your free time is your business.

That seems a non-sequitur. Straight people can also do what they like in their free time... and can "tell" about it.


docbailey> the work place is for work not flirting so if a guy/girl has the ability to focus on the mission at hand then sexual prefernece should be no issue.

Right, neither their sexual orientation - nor talking about what they do in their free time - should be a benchmark.


It humors me when people pretend that the military will start failing to function if gays/lesbians can serve openly. Last I heard, neither Canada (ok, not much of a litmus test) or Israel had any problems associated with this.

I have a friend who is over there right now. I keep thinking about him, and my imagination is getting very gruesome. I will bottom out for anybody who wants to put himself in harm's way for the benefit of my freedom. I believe in reciprocity. A hot fuck is the least I can do, yes?

Too much information?

served my time in the armed forces. 8 years... and only out today because of medical reasons. I can see the point of the no gay rule but I dont agree with it. with the way things are now it just forces those that are gay and serving to shut the door and lock the closet they are forced into.

Odd to me that any gay man or woman would want to defend a system that excludes him or her for the most part (although, yeah, it's changing). We ought to just form our own damned army and start demanding our due.

I'm gay and in my third year of Army ROTC. Most of my guys in my unit know I'm gay and are great with it. The policy is probably going to change pretty soon, that's my view. I'll be relieved when it does though.

I am glad things are looking up and hope they change for the better and soon.

I had fun while I was in... and many times thought I might have been caught. But hey... what fun....... and it was.

LANCE

personally i find it disturbing that some gay people agree with the "no gays in military" stance.

...

you don't use your cock to do your job, regardless of being gay or straight. it doesn't belong on the flightline nor in the office.

what you do outside of work is your own business; who you date, who you sleep with, who you marry.

it's entirely obvious that there are hundreds of thousands of homosexuals in the united states military forces by counting the number that have been found and kicked out. consider all those that haven't been found or haven't been kicked out.

the number of homosexual disturbances in the military is incredibly low. let's pick on "rednecks" and "grunts" now. seems that they sure get into a lot of barfights, get busted fucking married wives, etc etc.

since they are actually doing criminal and injurious things, why aren't we sending them to leavenworth and/or kicking them out by the scores?

ahhh, right. you can beat a guy bloody and maim him or even kill him and still server "honorably" in the military. but kiss a guy or -think- about a guy, and hey, you're ass is grass.

that's some damn fine upstanding honorable thinking there.

docbailey:

mentality of homos? excuse me, but which military were you in? there's a boatload more ass suckups and pandering for promotions going on in the straight world than you're ever going to find by homos.

been there, saw that, lived that. and that's why i got out. i was utterly disgusted by the politics of rank promotion. your perf and test scores count for X, how well you suck the ass off your CO and etc is the big ticket to the next stripe or star.

i have boxes of medals and awards and citations for the performance of myself and my crews. but i didn't leave as an e-9 because i wouldn't play the fucked up game of rank politics.

how about based on looks. since the vast majority of members in the military are men and as far as i know, the vast majority of them size up a woman by her looks, seems to me we out to be kicking them out of the military for your reasoning.

this whole thing about homo mentality in the military being unsuitable reeks highly of internalized self-hate.

been there, done that, served proudly, honorably, decorated, and highly respected and i'm a 100% full blown cock sucking ass fucking homo and never a day been confused about it or in denial.

you don't need me to be an example, there are thousands and thousands of upstanding men and women discharged from the military for being gay that are more honorable, ethical, respectable and a lot of other shining traits than most of the members of the armed forces.

such talk is disgraceful to the true meaning and spirit of our flag and for every drop of blood shed for it.

our president and administration may be one of the most hateful lying crooked group of people that ever ran our country, but so help me God, I love my country and the flag above it. this administration may have buried it so deep in sewage that it seems like it's next door to hell, but -some- of us believe in the values that ALL men and women of this country deserve every bit of freedom and respect equally.

America is the land of -us-

not the land of the hateful bigots only.

numerous countries have homosexuals in the army and it's entirely a non-issue.

it's entirely fucked that you can go to prison for gay sex in the military but slaughter civilians left and right in iraq, plant weapons next to them, call them insurgents, and get decorated.

This is just astounding, DocBailey:

Given the mentality of many gay men i.e. judging men based on looks i find it deifficult many gay men in that environemtn can be fair based on merit.

You make an unproven assertion, implying that gay men discriminate in general on the basis of looks, and then apply the unproven assertion to those in military operations? I think you protest too much...I think YOU judge people on their looks, and therefore think that someone in the field would actually decide if their buddy is worth defending, on the basis of looks?

In fact, I am not sure what the hell you are saying.

Then you say this:

Bottom line is the work place is for work not flirting so if a guy/girl has the ability to focus on the mission at hand then sexual prefernece should be no issue.

This is another assertion, that gay men would be in the military to flirt. Are you out of your mind? But I am not sure what the last part of your sentence has to do with the first.

Are you saying that if you are attracted to your buddy, you will be more worried about getting him to suck your dick than you will be defending yourself? Or your mission?

Please. That all sounds so irrational, sorry to say.

A person would have to be nuts to put himself in harms way just to get a date. That's what you are saying. It makes no sense...and it sounds like exactly the sort of propaganda we hear from the Bush administration and other right wing wackos.

John

You know, there's a bigger argument to be made about the current function of the US Military in terms of foreign policy, but that is quite beyond the scope of this issue (or is it...it's for me anyway, today).

This "no gay" rule will eventually be seen as archaic as the one banning African Americans from serving in the armed forces: extremely backwards! One only need think about how many thousands of great soldiers the army misses out on because it officially refuses to recognize and support them. Whew! Then of course, there's the open secret that (sorry if this offends anyone) only a certain type of man enjoys living in close quarters with other men, sleeping next to them, wearing a uniform, and wielding phalic symbols. What angers me is that we even have to discuss these silly issues in 2007 when there are such bigger issues for the military to deal with (such as the issue of pre-emptive usage of nukes).

2 cents, baby.

Oh, one more thing:

Discrimination based on sexuality is about as logical as discrimination based on race. Truly progressive nations/companies/industries have long recognized that you seek out the best in the field first and foremost. Doesn't mean discrimination doesn't exist, but its hard to see how we can cling to it in an increasingly globalized world.

this is America. we can cling to some pretty stupid notions pretty damn hard and go down fighting and screaming tooth and nail before admitting a notion is wrong.

The closest thing I ever got to the military was serving in the local scout group when I was 12! I remember going along to scouts when I was kid. I liked wearing the smart uniform as well; I felt proud with it on; and I had quite a good time there. It did teach me a lot about discipline and growing up. Unfortunately I didn't get to do any firearms training but oh well!

I actually thought about joining the military after I graduate but I can't because of my medical conditions (I have asthma, psoriasis, and I wear glasses). Amazingly, I can still work out and go hiking, yet these conditions disqualify me from joining the military (though I suppose the pace is a lot tougher in the military than it is in the gym/sports hall). However, since then I've decided not to join the military anyway. The problem is that men idolise military life. Look how many people here have these bizarre sexual attractions towards men in uniform! It's like there are so many gay men who seem to have a thing for soldiers. Yet the military is one of the least gay-friendly organisations in the country and still has a culture of homophobia and bullying (especially bullying). New recruits still get hazed. True there may have been some improvement, but the military still has a long way to go.

A uniform looks nice on a man/woman. And yes, maybe those men are nice and muscular. But let us also remember that some of those muscular, sexy men would happily beat up recruits they perceive to be gay whilst the uniform doesn't necessarily make it's wearer friendly, amiable, and compassionate: it just makes them look smart and more attractive.

Sorry if I have upset anyone. Just having my 2 cents.

"Gay soldiers need to shoot straights, not be straights."

What a difference a letter makes!

Here in Great Britain the government had the courage(!) to wait for the European Human Rights court to rule against them in 1999,I believe,that the ban on gays in the mlitary was discriminatory,in order to change the rule!And that was years behind most other European countries!Being gay and having served my country in the Police Service,I really can`t see what all the fuss is about.The only thing I can think of relates back to their fear of us as sexual predators or something.In which case they`re not all that toughas they make out.Yes,some of us get off on a man in uniform,but the job was the most important thing to me;and I`d say most other gay men.Do they think they can chase the women,but not be chased?My niece had more than a few neanderthals to deal with in the Royal Navy.I don`t know the position in the states,but here in Britain the shortage of recruits to the Armed Forces is so bad they`re actually targetting gay men as possible recruits.How times change!You guys over there will probably catch up with the rest of the world somtime soon,and the military won`t collapse.Then we`ll be able to serve our country like everyone else.

Well, I am not an anthropologist so I will leave the in-depth analytical perception of ever-changing societal trends to them. However, it is apparent that the "need", if you will, for discrimination is, in fact, a crucial step towards progression.

As seen throughout history, one can make comparisons based on similar events, such as gender equality, Civil Rights Movement, Stonewall, and so on. While it is highly unfortunate, discrimination often serves as a moral indicator of an immoral or unjust act.

Our moral foundations are not rooted in our being rather acquired through a gradual process of a shifting and evolving societal concensus based on moral philosophy, legal judgements, parliamentary votes, journalistic editorials, etc. Our moral outlook today is quite different from what it was 100 years ago. Each of those steps taken in progression necessarily needed a backlash, if you will, in order to enlighten the general populous of the harm that is being done.

Cheers to Hillary '08. ;]

From the Soldiers and Marines I've known who were gay, thier perfomance was niether less not more professional than straight Servicemembers. If anything, the gay servicemembers were better at seperating sexuality from work life. Straight servicemembers will trade sex stories at work while the gay servicemembers are forced to hide thiers.

Soldiers are niether black, white, yellow, male or female. They are Green. Thats what they tell us. And gay and straight and bisexual should be included.

I've known so many gay members of the armed services I long ago lost count. I really don't understand how don't ask/don't tell works.

Is its enforcement dependent on your immediate supervisor?

Obscenewish:

From what I can gather it's very dependent on your immediate supervisor and those you are in closest contact with. I've had queer friends in the military that were able to be almost completely open about it, and others that have had to keep themselves constantly closeted when they were on base and even when they were out in public to some extent (I live in Idaho, so "in public" is pretty conspicuous because of the low population, even in Boise).

I hope this helps, I' am here in Baghdad right now. I have been for 38 months.
The reason for don't ask don't tell is self protection. A soldier will wind up in alot of places alone, or a work asignment. Maybe a hostile enviroment and have no one there to protect his back. Your life details are not important especially if it could taint the views of anyone you might need in a hostile situation.
You never know who might be offended or by what might offend them, or what harm they could do.

To our brave men and women, straight gay or green, I thank you. All of my heros are dressed in green and half my age!

Maybe it is time to leave our politics at the door, and think of others first.

Graybaghdaddy:

I might (and only might) be able to buy that, except for the numerous cases of nations that allow openly gay soldiers to serve. The one that is most pertinent to what you're saying, it seems, is Israel that allows openly gay soldiers and is constantly embroiled in Middle East politics and conflict.

Allowing for a soldier to be open about her sexuality is not encouraging her to not use discretion. In fact, I would contend that most queer soldiers would be able to have a modicum of discretion about when to be open and when not to, just like most civilians in the queer community.

Hi Chewy,
You have a good point except, Israel only fights their own conflicts they are not all over the middle east - they can not go anywhere except Isreal unless they are invading another country.
Sorry off track. The point being that no one knows who they will wind up with, they do not do a pairing off that insures safety. If you wind up in a unit that has alot of rednecks it could very well be the end of a life. This way no matter what kind wind up in the make up of the unit if you don't ask and I don't tell it keeps us all on the same side to be able to fight other forces.
Every one takes it that this is against the queers, I have seen what can happen. And I prefer to look at it as being for those who need it. If it keeps one of safe, I see it as being worth it.

Chewy take good care

Chewy maybe it is just that our country's are at a different place's.
I had the chance to spend some time with a young Isreali man last spring and a more gentle soul I have never meet. Maybe they are just more advanced after 2000 years of fighting.

After traveling the world from Europe to asia, It is appauling to see the the american spirit in some circles has changed from "free to be you and me" to free to judge and be prejudiced against you and me! I find that even in many communist countries the homophobia is on a much smaller scale. I only find that only in some Islamic countries such as Iran is the situation worse than the land of liberty. History never seems to be able to teach us that being prejudiced allows and suggests to others that being that way towards us is a viable option. I unfortunately see this even more in the gay community than in many parts of the straight community. It seems that we who have been judged are now racing to do to each other the same things we complain about other people doing from outside our community, women to men, black to white, or hispanic, or asian, masculine to femanine, etc. Also some things we do in the military individually are not helping our cause. I was in the Army for many years and I saw homesexuals in the army who stole from the mail room (e.g. TVs, vcr, etc) I saw people who didn't show up for alerts that if had happened in a time of war could have cost others there lives. I saw people who felt like do the duty they were paid for was something to do only when you were to stupid to get out of it, before you ask yes I am gay and I even was one of those people following the lead of my gay friends who taught me these things. Yes, there are some straight people doing these things too; yes there are some great honest and caring gay soldiers in the army who have served with honor, but we can help our selves in the army and in public by not always having to share images that may not be conducive to getting the respect we want and desire from the communities around us.(e.g. naked parades infront of cathedrals and churches, having sex on the subway, bus stops and other open areas. I don't see straight people doing these things except at special places like nudist camps. I love my community and want to see it thrive could we start with the men in the mirror before judging others!

Mystified

We have the ability to make ourselves stronger, smarter, faster, and better. I for one am going to start with the "Man in the mirror". Maybe then I won't have to ask for more respect maybe it will come on it's own. Martin Luther King Jr. used this very effectively to the shagrin of the old boy network.

O-W, it does depend almost entirely upon who knows and the commanders involved. I've know soldiers who were totally out within thier unit. Unfortuatly, from what I've seen, Female bisexuality and lesbianism is far more accepted by the military males then male bisexuality or homosexuality.

I was good friends with one openly bisexual female who worked for Criminal Investigative Division (CID), the unit in charge of investigating and prosecusting gay Soldiers as well as other vice crimes (drugs, rape, etc). Everyone in the unit knew and spoke of it openly. I know for a fact that if she had been a male, there would have been a different response.

Of course a commander who discovers one of his Soldiers is gay or bisexual is placed in the same situation as the Soldier, when it comes to the facing and honoring the Army Values. Integrity is an Army Value, and a Soldier has to decide wether or not to lie on those hundreds of small occasions. Under UCMJ, a commander must report and follow through when he discovers a gay Soldier. Don't Ask, Don't Tell really hasn't done much to improve the situation.

Graybaghdaddy:

Again, that should be a choice left to the individual soldier. Just because a soldier is allowed to be open about his sexuality does not necessarily mean he won't be discrete about it. Like I said before, a lot of people in the civilian queer community are plenty discrete when they don't feel safe being open.

I understand the point you're trying to make. My problem with it is that it's the same point that's been made about every controversial group entering the military (in some manner). Banning and segregating African-Americans were both justified on the basis of "protection." The same goes for women. Instead of being paternalistic about it, however, the military disciplines those soldiers who are out of line. The same should happen in the case of gay and lesbian soldiers. Is that discipline process perfect? No, absolutely not, especially when it comes to correcting sexism. But it's better than a paternalistic military that is supposedly trying just to protect gay soldiers.

There are already plenty of gay soldiers out there who are discrete about their sexuality, being open in some cases and not in others.

Its only there so they claim to be fighting under the banner of God and Christianity. yet another example of the US religious states powers

graybaghdaddy> The point being that no one knows who they will wind up with, they do not do a pairing off that insures safety. If you wind up in a unit that has alot of rednecks it could very well be the end of a life

Couldn't the same have been said about African Americans serving in the military with a bunch of cracker/rednecks who'd might have lynched him?

Maybe it's those "rednecks" who would murder their own comrade that should be kicked out?!


crimthann> Don't Tell really hasn't done much to improve the situation.

Did it used to be "Don't ask, don't tell, DON'T PURSUE"?

The policy is Dont Ask, Don't Tell, Don't Pursue, and Don't Harass

Masulineone great comment I loved it,
It is even that way in the straight world, women are much more accepted then are, straight men love lesbians. First they can relate and second is the fantasy of two women together.
Putting ourselve's in the position to find out all of the details will be the only way we know for sure. And even then the experience will be different for each of us.

Straight men may love lesbians, debateable but I'll give you it, but which do straight women prefer? The fags or the lesbains?