Barebacking = Death

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jan 14, 2008 12:12 PM GMT
    OK, so that's kind of a provocative thread title. (Remember "Silence = Death"?)

    But hey, why not be a little provocative?

    I just saw this editorial on NYTimes.com this morning about the alarming rise of HIV/AIDS among young gay men (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/14/opinion/14mon2.html) -- it came on the heels of an earlier article on the subject (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/02/nyregion/02hiv.html?fta=y).

    Both of them were wringing their hands over the rising HIV rate, but neither mentioned what I think is the real culprit and the gay community's dirty little secret: the new social acceptability of barebacking, which I'd bet is a big contributor to the disease's resurgence in our community.

    So yeah, I'm an old man, I grew up in the 80s when AIDS was more terrifying than nuclear war (damn, I am really dating myself), so by the time I came out in the 90s there wasn't even a question about using condoms. You just did.

    But now guys will openly advertise on craigslist or wherever that they're only into "raw" or "bb", and barebacking porn is no longer a rarity -- instead it's promoted as something that's super-hot and liberating instead of something that's really dangerous for guys to do. (I wish I were principled enough not to watch it when I come across it, but that's another story...)

    Am I the only one who's noticed this change? I mean, people do realize that barebacking is still the #1 way to get AIDS, right?

    I wish I had something more articulate to wrap this up with, but WTF?!
  • zakariahzol

    Posts: 2241

    Jan 14, 2008 12:48 PM GMT
    Me , JDEdward and Hippie and a few other guys, we have a real good discussion about HIV and AIDS. Our discussion really about orall sex, bj and the chances of getting AIDS if your do it without protection. Of course the risk of getting infected by oral sex is minimal in comparison of barebacking .

    Just like you I grow up during the height of AIDS epedemic during the 80's in the United States. Those days AIDS is a death sentence. You just dont survive it. Barebacking is an absolute no-no. Just like playing Russian Roulette with your life. I do admit for a few years during my twenties I have indulge in barebacking. My lover at that time are a total bottom and insist that I fuck him condomless. Aside from him and a few other one nite stand I have not do anymore barebacking . Not for the last 12 years at least.

    I have not been tested for HIV , so I not sure my status. But I guess unless you can get HIV thru oral sex probablity I am negative.

    Just like you, I love to watch barebacking porn. I dont know, it forbidden and dangerous that why it look exciting. However that no way I going do it myself.

    Here among friends in Real Jock. I really hope we keep informing and discussing HIV and AIDS. Those folk that are poz need our support and the one negative need to be inform and educated.
    zak
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jan 14, 2008 2:12 PM GMT
    Barebacking should really not be done unless you are in a 100% monogamous trusting relationship for a while and have both been tested. Otherwise please wrap it people.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jan 14, 2008 3:01 PM GMT
    Everyone would do well to read The Tragedy Of Today's Gays by Larry Kramer...he talks a lot about this in that speech.
  • bigguysf

    Posts: 329

    Jan 14, 2008 4:47 PM GMT
    I think there are many dirty little secrets we have in the gay community regarding HIV and sex.

    Yes, barebacking (and other 'mild to wild' and 'nasty, uninhibited' behaviors) is happening more and more because it's being glamorized in porn. And yeah, I'm no prude or saint and have "stuck it in" without a condom occasionally, but it's always a risk regardless of being top or bottom. The risks are lower as a top, but still there.

    Another piece of this puzzle that is being glamorized are the HIV drug therapies. More than once I have been told by guys "don't be so uptight, it's not that bad!". Even this weekend a guy told me "I only take one pill a day and I feel great!" That's cool... I'm happy for you. Still, it's not my choice AND totally within my control to not be in the same position.

    I think one of the biggest dirty little secrets we have in the community is the rampant peer pressure to engage in activities. There are the cases above where you are continually told "Don't be so uptight, it's not that bad" (an honest to God quote). There are also many times I will say (in my profiles on sex sites) that I don't do XYZ, and inevitably someone will message me saying "don't be ignorant... you can't get HIV" from XYZ. The only problem with that theory is that for every time I have been told that you can't get HIV from a behavior, I have friends who seroconverted doing THAT behavior.

    I know guys who seroconverted from giving oral sex, even though that risk is low. I know guys who have seroconverted from BB anal sex as the top, even though that risk is supposedly lower too. I know guys who seroconverted from just one time of trusting a boyfriend during receptive anal sex. The list goes on. The only behavior I can say that I have not heard first-hand of causing HIV infection is rimming... which I do know first-hand can cause other infections.

    All this to say that I get really irritated when I see guys trying to pressure others (myself included) into doing sexual behaviors they don't want to engage in. If someone says NO that doesn't mean they are ignorant, bigoted, not hip, uninformed, or any of that. It just means that they have made a choice to do what is comfortable and right for themselves.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jan 14, 2008 4:57 PM GMT
    Some of the stuff that is going on in Dallas (see Craigslist Dallas) is ALARMING!

    These folks have completely walked away from ANY sense of personal responsibility and are completely self-indulgent.

    It's enough to be nauseating.

    I think people now feel that HIV is survivable and no big deal. They get positive, take their cocktails of anti-HIV, and AAS, and away they go.

    I find that lack of personal responsibility truly disturbing at a very gut level, even more so than fat people.

    As some point, folks have to say "enough already!"
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jan 14, 2008 5:03 PM GMT
    meb, i think that was a good way to wrap it up. I genuinely "lol"ed.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jan 14, 2008 5:05 PM GMT
    We take a harder line - monogamous or not, HIV+ with HIV+ or HIV- with HIV-, NO - absolutely NO - barebacking.

    Our views were reinforced when we attended a seminar by Nelson Vergel a few years back on reinfection and multiply-resistant strains.

    More can be read on Nelson's site:

    http://www.salvagetherapies.org
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jan 14, 2008 5:17 PM GMT
    meb3031 saidOK, so that's kind of a provocative thread title. (Remember "Silence = Death"?)

    But hey, why not be a little provocative?

    I just saw this editorial on NYTimes.com this morning about the alarming rise of HIV/AIDS among young gay men (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/14/opinion/14mon2.html) -- it came on the heels of an earlier article on the subject (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/02/nyregion/02hiv.html?fta=y).

    Both of them were wringing their hands over the rising HIV rate, but neither mentioned what I think is the real culprit and the gay community's dirty little secret: the new social acceptability of barebacking, which I'd bet is a big contributor to the disease's resurgence in our community.

    So yeah, I'm an old man, I grew up in the 80s when AIDS was more terrifying than nuclear war (damn, I am really dating myself), so by the time I came out in the 90s there wasn't even a question about using condoms. You just did.

    But now guys will openly advertise on craigslist or wherever that they're only into "raw" or "bb", and barebacking porn is no longer a rarity -- instead it's promoted as something that's super-hot and liberating instead of something that's really dangerous for guys to do. (I wish I were principled enough not to watch it when I come across it, but that's another story...)

    Am I the only one who's noticed this change? I mean, people do realize that barebacking is still the #1 way to get AIDS, right?

    I wish I had something more articulate to wrap this up with, but WTF?!


    BB is ok when your with a guy u love.
  • jarhead5536

    Posts: 1348

    Jan 14, 2008 5:24 PM GMT
    nytramfilms,

    Please be careful, kid. You know not of what you speak.

    Is this cavalier disregard for basic safety a generational thing? Does one have to have buried 28 of your friends before they were 30 to get it? Yes, I don't have a single friend left alive that I knew before 1990. I am poz also, and the survivor guilt is almost more than I can bear sometimes.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jan 14, 2008 5:29 PM GMT
    Nothing says "I don't love you." like BB.
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    Jan 14, 2008 5:40 PM GMT
    I get offers from younins that want me to top them BB all the time.. They get really pissed when I lecture them about safe sex. Its got to be a generational thing..dumb kids.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jan 14, 2008 5:42 PM GMT
    nytramfilms, I can give you a LIST of guys who "only did it with guys who were faithful to me" and converted WITHIN THE LAST TWO YEARS.

    You're living with your head in the sand, ny.
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    Jan 14, 2008 5:49 PM GMT
    If you want see something really disturbing log into gay.com and then take a peek at the bareback chat room. I would say about half of the guys in there identify themselves as HIV- which is truly wishful thinking on their part. And if you really want to give yourself a migraine, try talking to one of those guys about it. Their reasons varied, but they are pretty much united in their stupidity.

    The notion that HIV is more easily managed these days doesn't negate the fact that people still get sick and people still die, albeit very rarely. Lets talk about the meds. Yes, they are considerably less toxic than they used to be, but many people still have negative and debilitating reactions to them. What if you catch a strain that's already resistant to most of the current treatments? I am so grateful that whatever combination of genetic resistance, virus genotype and sheer dumb luck has put me in a tiny minority that has allowed me to remain treatment naive and non-progressive for this long. I know most people are not so lucky and given the chance to do things over I certainly would have made better choices.





  • auryn

    Posts: 2061

    Jan 14, 2008 5:57 PM GMT
    Two things: 1) Zak, get tested! Joey, you can add me to that list if you decide to include the last 3 years. Thought I was invulnurable too, nytram. (Not saying that to cast judgement, just awareness.)
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jan 14, 2008 5:58 PM GMT
    This is tangential, but, perhaps it has a place in this discussion.

    There are many many many things that we can casually do to ourselves that put us in harms way and can lead to chronic conditions, which I suppose is what HIV amounts to these days. Anymore, it's along the lines of high cholesterol, high blood pressure, diabetes. These are all horrible, life threatening conditions. HIV/AIDs is still looked at as a gay thing, causing it's horrors to be that much more horrible to the unsympathetic. I don't really know where I'm going with this, but, although HIV -, I take 4 different high blood pressure medications and 1 cholesterol medication. All this despite a pretty heavy dose of working out, a great diet, plenty of rest, lots of water, (maybe more booze than I should), and generally doing everything I should these days. All my life, my doctor said "stop doing that" (smoking, drinking, drugging, getting too little sleep, stressing myself out physically and mentally). I was as invincible as any youth of my time. Now, I take more drugs than most people HIV +. I still don't know exactly what my point is. I guess, do everything you're supposed to and you won't have to pop pills everyday to avoid dying prematurely. Yeah, I guess that's my point. Depending on pills to live really really sucks.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jan 14, 2008 6:24 PM GMT
    I was stupid and immature at some point as well, but most of the people in my age group I've found are just completely ignorant and uninformed in the topic of STD's, HIV and safe sex.

    I DID go get tested at least 6 months after the last time I had unprotected sex, and thank God the test came back nonreactive. I will test myself again 6 months from now, but I can guarantee that I will never again engage in such irresponsible behavior.

    Another factor is that I don't think people realize how widespread it really is. Just from reading this forum, my eyes have been open even more to how bad it really is. I'm almost ashamed to be a member of this generation of the gay community.

    Something must be done
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    Jan 14, 2008 7:11 PM GMT
    Over the last decade rates of infection for chlamydia, gonorrhea, and other STI's have skyrocketed as fear of AIDS and condom use decline. It was only a matter of time before AIDS rates swung around too.

    In the Times article, it said that rates were climbing in minority communities. Health services really needs to be overhauled.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jan 14, 2008 7:33 PM GMT
    "No glove, no love."

    This is something that gay men around the world should practice and not just gay men either but anyone who is having sex. It's a personal responsiblity that everyone has and should be aware of.

    The way I see is that no one is gonna love and respect me like me so safety is a must when dealing with others regardless of their perfect health or lack there of.

    Since alot of gay men seem to be promiscuous and just oversexed they overlook it easily and don't take into consideration the consequences that are involved with BB. Personally I think it shows a lack of respect when a individual is willing to turn a blind eye towards my safety and his own.

    The only way it would even be acceptible is if you were in 100% garenteed relationship where you and your partner had eyes only for each other and no else and had complete knowledge of their health status. That too is another problem which is why condoms are necessary because alot of gay men really don't know their own status and never get tested.

    Basically if you don't care about your own safety how is anyone to believe you care about theirs?
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    Jan 20, 2008 1:09 AM GMT
    HOW and WHERE did this HIV/AIDS came about? There been gays long b4 this disease even came out. I think some one let out a virus and blame it or pointed their fingers on gays that we're the cause of all this. This has been bugging me 4 years, even my brother-in-laws dad said the same question,....things that make u say, "mmmm?"

    Anyone out there care to rebutal,.. icon_neutral.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jan 23, 2008 7:12 AM GMT
    One thing I can say is be responsible. Barebacking might be okay IF and ONLY IF you already would trust your life to your partner. And if you had both been recently tested, or have no reason to suspect infidelity. Even then... I wouldn't really advise it.

    If you had exposed yourself to risk, get tested. And be ready to take responsibility of whatever the results are.

    Be honest in relationships, doesn't matter if its monogamous or polyamorous, as long as you're honest with each other. Cheating = risking not just your own life, but that of your partner(s).

    And lastly, I have GREAT RESPECT for people who admit being HIV+ and feel that it is their duty not to spread it further. Seriously, I love you guys! Hang on, might just be a few more years. icon_smile.gif

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    Jan 28, 2008 12:40 AM GMT
    hippie4lyfe saidBarebacking should really not be done unless you are in a 100% monogamous trusting relationship for a while and have both been tested. Otherwise please wrap it people.


    Amen sister. It's great to be in a mono relationship where we're both obsessed with eachother.
  • Timbales

    Posts: 13993

    Jan 28, 2008 12:54 AM GMT
    I see no reason to stop using condoms.

    You cannot tell me that no one became HIV positive while they thought they were in a relationship with someone they trusted.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jan 28, 2008 1:12 AM GMT
    Barebacking =

    S
    T
    U
    P
    I
    D

    D
    U
    M
    B
  • Alan95823

    Posts: 306

    Jan 28, 2008 1:27 AM GMT
    Timberoo saidI see no reason to stop using condoms.

    You cannot tell me that no one became HIV positive while they thought they were in a relationship with someone they trusted.


    Most of the guys I knew who seroconverted in a relationship did so because they thought they were "safe", and either their partner cheated or didn't know they were positive. I know several mixed hiv couples who happily use condoms and are silly in love.

    I even know some guys who are testing hiv- every 6 months, but continue using condoms together. One of them has herpes, and they don't want to share. The "top" in the relationship is well endowed, and said that condoms mean no poo on his dick, so he's happy with continuing condom use.

    I don't get the guys who refuse to wrap it up, it just doesn't make any sense to me.