Independent anyone? Political venting.

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    Feb 07, 2010 1:29 PM GMT
    In my Texas Politics class (yes it is a real required class, that's how obnoxious Texas is) we had to fill out a survey asking us if we identify with Democrat or Republican. Of course there was a lot of R's on the graph of all our responses but surprisingly there was a lot of D's and one I. (mine icon_smile.gif ) I don't identify with either.

    There are some Republican views that I don't agree on and some that i do (mostly financial and business policies) and then there are some Democratic views that i don't agree with and some that i do stand behind. I told myself i wasn't going to be the "gay police" in my class because i don't want to be known as that guy that only cares about gay rights in class , so i chose not to speak during the debates.

    One day, the professor was talking about how whichever party your on everyone has some basic beliefs. So he said, " In example, raise your hand if you believe that everyone should have freedom" and of course everyone did. in my head i really wanted to say "keep them up even if you mean the freedom for anyone to marry and for women to chose" but i didn't. I bite my tongue so much in this class, I voice my opinion here and there (i keep it mild to avoid debate). I don't mind debating if my opponent is educated about the subject matter, and when the insults start coming out I immediately stop.

    Anyways I ended up rambling when really i wanted to say, most gays think Republicans are anti gay and anti women when really not all democrats are backing us up either. I think if we utilized the "Independent" option more often there wouldn't be this D v R battle going on.
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    Feb 07, 2010 2:46 PM GMT
    Agreed.
    This "Hatfields vs. McCoys" brain-off setting is gettin' a little too much play.
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    Feb 07, 2010 3:55 PM GMT
    waxon saidAnyways I ended up rambling when really i wanted to say, most gays think Republicans are anti gay and anti women when really not all democrats are backing us up either. I think if we utilized the "Independent" option more often there wouldn't be this D v R battle going on.

    I agree that there is good ideas in both Parties' platforms and independent thinking is what always should be applied. But I can't follow your logic in the example above. I'm not happy with the Ds follow through on gay rights but that still would make them my choice over the Rs who wanted to enshrine gay discrimination in the constitution. It's a choice between the hand that feeds you reluctantly over the hand that makes sure you starve to death (on gay rights)
  • Timbales

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    Feb 07, 2010 3:57 PM GMT
    I really don't understand the blind allegiance to both parties I see on this forum, and the constant baiting and bitching I see.
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    Feb 07, 2010 6:04 PM GMT
    Too much fighting between the parties (same as on RJ) to affect any meaningful changes...

  • jlly_rnchr

    Posts: 1759

    Feb 07, 2010 6:13 PM GMT
    Wait, someone logical please explain what is wrong with Democrats' take on finance and business? I'm being serious, I want to know why Republicans are smarter on these topics.
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    Feb 07, 2010 6:30 PM GMT
    The thing is, a lot of people that call themselves independent are really republicans trying to dodge the label of failure .. they jumped ship like fleas off a dog when Bush era republicans took a beating.

    So "independent" is diluted by republicans, nonsensical tea-baggers and the like. Ironically I would say that the democrats have become the most diverse party it seems .. it has a little of everything including diverse ethnic groups, social, and fiscal philosophies.

    Having a third party will not make anything better because people will still disagree on what to do, and the pie will be split even more ways. Ever hear of "divide and conquer?"

    As far as republicans being more fiscally responsible .. I can't believe anyone believes that anymore. It is more about aligning political power with the wealthy .. and selling your soul to "religious" sorts of groups to maintain an image of "piety" while trying to ensure their own oligarchy.
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    Feb 07, 2010 6:44 PM GMT
    I think registering as an Independent is stupid in many cases. You throw away a vote because you can't participate in the party primaries in many states. Texas has an open primary system, so more power to you. So, Independents in states like Florida or New York just piss away their participation. And for what?

    Could be worse. Could be a registered Green or Working Families Party (barf!)
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    Feb 07, 2010 7:03 PM GMT
    When the Democratic party puts anti-gay marriage proposals on the ballots in swing states - as the Repubs did in 2004 - then maybe we can talk about how the Dems are no better than the Repubs on gay rights.
    The Repubs have used antigay hatred to try to win elections.
    I know of no instance where the Dems have done that.

    Anybody who doesn't know that the Repub party is the home of the American folks who hate us and want to keep us from having equal rights is brainwashed or in deep denial.

    I don't vote on this issue. I vote against - and will continue to vote against - Repub candidates for prez because they support the failed policy of trickle-down economics, which is responsible for nearly all of our national debt and the last two recessions.
    But, to try and say that there's no difference between the D's and R's on gay rights is total bs.
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    Feb 07, 2010 7:07 PM GMT
    MunchingZombie saidI think registering as an Independent is stupid in many cases. You throw away a vote because you can't participate in the party primaries in many states. )

    It isn't stupid as long as there's an open primary system.
    It doesn't help us to send a message to the Democratic Party that we automatically support them no matter what. What incentive would they have to actually do anything for gay rights?
    It's like being in a relationship where you tell your partner "Treat me any way you like but I'll always be yours." It won't be a happy marriage.
  • jlly_rnchr

    Posts: 1759

    Feb 07, 2010 7:09 PM GMT
    rickrick91 saidWhen the Democratic party puts anti-gay marriage proposals on the ballots in swing states - as the Repubs did in 2004 - then maybe we can talk about how the Dems are no better than the Repubs on gay rights.
    The Repubs have used antigay hatred to try to win elections.
    I know of no instance where the Dems have done that.

    Anybody who doesn't know that the Repub party is the home of the American folks who hate us and want to keep us from having equal rights is brainwashed or in deep denial.

    I don't vote on this issue. I vote against - and will continue to vote against - Repub candidates for prez because they support the failed policy of trickle-down economics, which is responsible for nearly all of our national debt and the last two recessions.
    But, to try and say that there's no difference between the D's and R's on gay rights is total bs.

    Pretty sure Harold Ford Jr. was pretty vocal about his lack of support for same-sex marriage and abortion in order to win a Senate seat back in Tennessee. Of course, on the cusp of announcing his candidacy for a seat from NY, he's changed his mind on both issues.
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    Feb 07, 2010 7:43 PM GMT
    Pretty sure Harold Ford Jr. doesn't set the agenda for the entire Democratic party.
    His actions speak to the difficulty of a pro-gay candidate winning an election in a REPUBLICAN Southern state. He had to say he wasn't for gay marriage to have any chance of winning.
    Which just proves the point that Republican voters have an anti-gay bias.
    Is that the best example of an anti-gay action by a Democrat you can come up with?
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    Feb 07, 2010 8:09 PM GMT
    Timberoo saidI really don't understand the blind allegiance to both parties I see on this forum, and the constant baiting and bitching I see.


    I'm pretty sick and tired of it....on the forums and out there in the world too.

    Well, maybe I do understand it. Its the herd mentality...wanting to feel like you belong to a group....and most importantly, its in the financial interests of corporations and politicians to have people divided and swear ignorant blind allegiance to a political party.

    Intentionally keep the masses confused, scared and emotional with nifty slogans and 10 second sound bites so that people argue among themselves and the real issues and solutions are purposefuly obscured. Mr.and Mrs. Joe Average are frantically clinging to their outdated and tired beliefs so that they feel good about "being a patriot" while they (and the country) get screwed big time by the very politicians they blindly follow.

    And we the people expect massive problems to be fixed just like we expect our favorite TV shows to end......within an hour....with no pain and a false sense of gain. We crucify any politician who tells us otherwise.

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    Feb 07, 2010 8:25 PM GMT
    I'm a registered independant. I can vote in any primary in virginia, just not in both
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    Feb 07, 2010 9:30 PM GMT
    TexDef07 said
    MunchingZombie saidI think registering as an Independent is stupid in many cases. You throw away a vote because you can't participate in the party primaries in many states. )

    It isn't stupid as long as there's an open primary system.
    It doesn't help us to send a message to the Democratic Party that we automatically support them no matter what. What incentive would they have to actually do anything for gay rights?
    It's like being in a relationship where you tell your partner "Treat me any way you like but I'll always be yours." It won't be a happy marriage.


    I mentioned the open primary system in my post.

    But why is registering as a member of a party and participating in their primaries a show of support? I am a Dem and I don't support the party and in fact I actively work against several endorsed candidates in the party. For example, I am working with someone running for State Senate who is going to unseat a Dem who votes against gay rights. We are campaigning heavily on gay rights.

    That is something I could not do, at least in my state which has a closed system, without participating in party politics. You have to play the game to win the game, and being an Independent in certain states just doesn't do that.
  • jlly_rnchr

    Posts: 1759

    Feb 07, 2010 9:59 PM GMT
    rickrick91 saidPretty sure Harold Ford Jr. doesn't set the agenda for the entire Democratic party.
    His actions speak to the difficulty of a pro-gay candidate winning an election in a REPUBLICAN Southern state. He had to say he wasn't for gay marriage to have any chance of winning.
    Which just proves the point that Republican voters have an anti-gay bias.
    Is that the best example of an anti-gay action by a Democrat you can come up with?

    It's just "one instance where a Dem has done that [used antigay hatred to try to win elections]".

    That is the best I could think of, but I could research and easily find more. Democrats are much more supportive of gay rights than Republicans, but they're not perfect. Like Harold Ford Jr., who's a two-faced snake who will say anything to get elected.

    And btw, it's no excuse that it's hard to be pro-gay and run in the south. I'd prefer he lose with integrity than flip-flopping to appeal to constituents.
  • Anto

    Posts: 2035

    Feb 07, 2010 10:22 PM GMT
    What is needed is not new labeling of groups but a change in mindset of people. If anything, I think having formal political parties only sets things up to be divisive from the start. Once you start formulating ways to set people apart from each other people will naturally start to segregate themselves over time. It's just human nature imo.
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    Feb 07, 2010 10:32 PM GMT
    You're right, jlly_mchr.
    The Democrats are "much more supportive of gay rights than Republicans".

    That was my point.
    Emphasis on the MUCH.
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    Feb 07, 2010 10:40 PM GMT
    As a registered Democrat and faithful voter for same most of my adult life, it's been really disheartening to see how it's been pretty much status quo in Washington the past year. Time was, Democrats had a core set of principles they operated on and these principles gave us some really terrific legislative victories (in my opinion). Social security, medicare, the Civil Rights bill of 1964 and so on.

    Fast forward to 2009 and Obama climbs in the sack with Goldman Sachs and the rest of Wall Street, and lets special interest groups turn the health care bill into a big, steaming pile of horseshit. This is not how a Democratic administration of old dealt with a financial meltdown and policy problems.

    And to be sure Republicans haven't been helpful, but so what? If Ds can't get their agenda passed controlling two of the three branches of the federal government, whose fault is it ultimately?

    On issues, most Democratic and Republican politicians today seem to be in favor of those things that get them elected (and re-elected). Beyond that, I'm not seeing a lot of difference (except in the rhetoric).
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    Feb 07, 2010 11:01 PM GMT
    southbeach1500 said
    rickrick91 saidYou're right, jlly_mchr.
    The Democrats are "much more supportive of gay rights than Republicans".

    That was my point.
    Emphasis on the MUCH.

    And, with their filibuster-proof majority over the past year, and complete control of the legislative and executive branches, what legislation have they passed that positively impacts gay rights?

    Maybe you noticed that many people on here are pretty disappointed with the Dems in that regard, but comparing that to a failed constitutional amendment forbidding gays to marry is right-wing propaganda.

    BTW, the health insurance bill has a provision that same sex health-benefits are taxed the same way as those to married spouses.

    Partners of Federal employees will now receive benefits like married spouses.

    Where are the benefits for gay people the Reps put into place during the last 8 years?
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    Feb 07, 2010 11:06 PM GMT
    southbeach1500 said
    bernd saidBTW, the health insurance bill has a provision that same sex health-benefits are taxed the same way as those to married spouses.

    Partners of Federal employees will now receive benefits like married spouses.

    Now THAT's change we can all believe in! What's next? Partners of union employees will receive benefits like married spouses? icon_rolleyes.gif
    Like I said, disappointingly little, but still 100% better than Reps, where change will never come
  • Nodak

    Posts: 72

    Feb 07, 2010 11:08 PM GMT
    I don't like either party so I consider myself a libertarian. It has always seemed to me that the republicans want to legislate morality and the Democrats want to legislate everything other than morality. I want a very limited federal government. Concentration of power is always dangerous.
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    Feb 07, 2010 11:18 PM GMT
    southbeach1500 said
    bernd said
    southbeach1500 said
    bernd saidBTW, the health insurance bill has a provision that same sex health-benefits are taxed the same way as those to married spouses.

    Partners of Federal employees will now receive benefits like married spouses.

    Now THAT's change we can all believe in! What's next? Partners of union employees will receive benefits like married spouses? icon_rolleyes.gif
    Like I said, disappointingly little, but still 100% better than Reps, where change will never come

    But the point is... they didn't pass the bill, so you've still got nothing.
    The point is that here I have a chance of getting something, while there I'd lose what little I have.
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    Feb 08, 2010 12:33 AM GMT
    southbeach1500 saidAnd, with their filibuster-proof majority over the past year, and complete control of the legislative and executive branches, what legislation have they passed that positively impacts gay rights?

    1)The gay-inclusive hate crimes act.
    2)Democrats are more diverse and don't vote monolithically like Republicans .. so filibuster proof doesn't mean much.
    3)Democrats only had a filibuster-proof majority for part of last year and up until Kennedy died
    4)A bill can die in committee before it even gets to a full vote.
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    Feb 08, 2010 12:47 AM GMT
    waxon saidIn my Texas Politics class (yes it is a real required class, that's how obnoxious Texas is) we had to fill out a survey asking us if we identify with Democrat or Republican. Of course there was a lot of R's on the graph of all our responses but surprisingly there was a lot of D's and one I. (mine icon_smile.gif ) I don't identify with either.

    There are some Republican views that I don't agree on and some that i do (mostly financial and business policies) and then there are some Democratic views that i don't agree with and some that i do stand behind. I told myself i wasn't going to be the "gay police" in my class because i don't want to be known as that guy that only cares about gay rights in class , so i chose not to speak during the debates.

    One day, the professor was talking about how whichever party your on everyone has some basic beliefs. So he said, " In example, raise your hand if you believe that everyone should have freedom" and of course everyone did. in my head i really wanted to say "keep them up even if you mean the freedom for anyone to marry and for women to chose" but i didn't. I bite my tongue so much in this class, I voice my opinion here and there (i keep it mild to avoid debate). I don't mind debating if my opponent is educated about the subject matter, and when the insults start coming out I immediately stop.

    Anyways I ended up rambling when really i wanted to say, most gays think Republicans are anti gay and anti women when really not all democrats are backing us up either. I think if we utilized the "Independent" option more often there wouldn't be this D v R battle going on.


    I certainly understand your sentiments. Being in Alaska, I'm registered as an independent, and much of the state is as well.

    That being said, i tend to identify more with the Democratic party than with the Republican, at least on social issues. Mostly because the Republicans here are a major bastion of conservative Christians: even if they don't identify with them, they don't do much to stop their rants about the family and the evils of gays.

    Financially, the Republican actions of the past 10 years has really undermined (imho) their claim to small budgets and small government. Hence I still tend to swing liberal.

    Alaska is interesting in that it has a lot more libertarians and green-party candidates than many states. However, from what I've seen from them online, they're fucking crazy. There's calls to dismantle the federal government, or the department of education, or outright calls for violent action against a government they no longer recognize as legitimate.