FORUMS > General Discussion Forum Rules

I was messaging NYCMUSC4MUSC this morning about a friend of mine who has a girlfriend and at the same time is seeing/dating and screwing around with a married man.

This guy is bi and in the closet.

Would you tell the other partner or not?

Personally I would like to, I know who the married man is and have met my buddies girlfriend for a few hours one evening. Don't know what to do, but I know what he is doing is not right. To complicate the situation he is also fuck buddies with a gay physician who has multiple partners. I find it very dangerous behaviour for all parties concered.

I thought that there was an unwritten rule that one gay man does not out another.

Above and beyond that, it's none of your business. However, if you feel fearful for your friend's safety or peace of mind, talk with him first, and really listen to and digest what he has to say. Weigh it against your own thoughts and feelings, tell him, lovingly, brother to brother, what you are thinking and feeling.

Every man has to learn and grow, and has to choose for himself, and reap the consequences of his choices. You can warn him, but it's not your place to out him.

Anybody else???

Warn him, but don't tell on him. Karma will bite him in the ass.

What he is doing is really despicable. But I don't think it's wise for you to "rat" on him. You can let him know that you think it's awful first just forcefully, then more so.

If he really is doing something unsafe to his partners (like having unsafe sex) and you know that he is, it becomes much more complicated an issue. Both from the standpoint on telling his girlfriend, and also from the standpoint of whether you want to stay in a relationship of any sort with him.

That's just awful, and I can imagine how this affected your feelings for the guy.

You need to confront him. It's true that everyone is responsible for their own choices, but when that person is making choices that impact others, then something needs to be done.

His wife needs to know for her safety. But you telling her might not be the best way to go about doing it...

confront your friend...if he doesn't respond, then bring a mutual friend into the situation and confront him again together. If he still doesn't respond, then you need to go to the wife. Unless she signed up for an open marriage, then my guess is she doesn't know he is bringing other people into their bed...

sorry girlfriend, not wife

There is nothing open here. Wives and girlfriends don't know.

We did speak for 2 days, he is extremely sick about the whole thing and doesn't know what to do.

Due to the fact that he does not see his married lover, he fools around with his doctor friend on the side.

I think the girlfriend is just a front to hide his sexual orintation. But that is my opinion.

I just don't like see people hurt and I know that this married lover will never leave his wife for him.

First of al, I do not take anyone seriously when they say they have safe sex... You cannot assume that they are telling you the truth. If this guy is doing this kind of things to another human being, when he tells you he is having safe sex with the promiscous doctor, take it with a grain of salt...

2nd, how well do you know this person? Is he a close friend..?

3rd, yes, I do believe you should tell him how you feel. Speak about the well being and the health of his girfriend... That he has no right to harm someone emotionally and above all, put this person's health at risk.

Do you know how most women get HIV beside IV drug use...? From bi sexual partners who are too embarrased to tell their partners. I remember reading some where an HIV bi sexual male was asked why he did not practice safe sex with his then girl friend who he passed the HIV virus to... He said, well, if I even suggested to have safe sex with her, she would become suspicious that I have been unfaithful, not ot mention that I have been not with another woman, but another man, and unsafe...

Think about that for a while... Remember the pop Isreali singer Ophra Hassa...? She dies from AID she got from her bi sexual boyfriend who was afraid to tell her about his sexual activities... She was his "straigth" sexual front, and she paied with horrific illnes and finally death..

Think about that...

I wouldn't tell. That's terrifying to be outted when you aren't ready. What he's doing is messed up, but it's his business. I messed around with a married guy before, his wife knew and they played together. Never with me however. I also am chatting with a guy on the internet that has a wife and kids, he has now idea that I know about him and he keeps lying about having a wife and kids. I'm not going to mess with him just for the simple fact that he's married... I even told him how I felt about guys that mess with guys while they are still married one time when we were chatting and he didn't catch on.

Obviously I am the harsh and unpopular one here...

If it was me, I would confront him, and tell him that if he does not tell her, I will tell her.

If this was happenning to me, I would thank the person who told me the truth, even if it is a stranger...

It can destory your friendship with this person. It will definately be very unpleasant. But his promiscuity is not a light matter.

We are not talking about gay men who are used to the idea of suggesting safe sex. Most straight and steady couples do NOT have safe sex, even if they tell you they do, trust me no this.

This is not the same as ratting someone out of the closet, or telling on the cheating husband to the wife about the otehr woman...

This is a case where someone can possibly pay with her health, life quality, and finally, her life.

Blackjock..

Your situation is not the same. You only chatetd with this man. Rick was with the guy a whole weekend and he has witnessed this guy being promisuous with otehr highly promiscous men...

It is beyong outting someone. It is protecting someone the risk of a life changing and irrersible disease!

Agree with Rhythm1438..

Again, this was not just chatting online. This is not about outting someone. This is about a 3rd innocent person risking her life when she does not even know she is at risk and that she could ahve med decisions on her own that is very different if she knew the truth...

And Sundown55 is a married closeted gay man, of course he will tel you not to out this guy.

Again, outting someone is not even the priority here. It is the health and safety of a 3rd person. It is none of your business? So if you walk down the street and witness a young guy mugging a much older lady, walk on by and tell yourself it is none of your business. The same can be said when youre the one being mugged...

He doesn't know what to do? He knows what he should do he just doesn't want to do it, and that is definately understandable and he has gotten himself in an untenable situation. The problem is that they women are being endangered without their consent. He can do what he wants and take what risks he wants, but he shouldn't risk others who have no idea. The women should have the right to decide what risks they are going to take sexually, and there are other diseases besides HIV that they can acquire. At the same time I'm not sure you should directly tell the women, or at least give him time to come clean and probably getting some counseling would be a good idea as well.

Right on!

To those who say "Aww it is terrible to out someone" or "It is none of your business."

You would not say this if this was happening to your little sister, or a dear close female friend...

I do have a little sister, and if some guy is doing this to her, I will not even mention what I will do to this guy... But I will personally thank the one who told her about the truth! And she will too!

seeI just don't see how you could consider a person like this a friend. Just think that if he is two timing this many people will he really be there for you when you need him?? you should at least confront him and tell him to get his act together and with the girlfriend and the wife, I would consider telling them if he doesn't. These are people whose lives are potentially on the line because this guy is messing around with a dozen different people. these girls probably have unprotected sex with their men thinking they are in monagamous relationships and all the while not realizing they are sleeping with half the city because you dont only sleep with the guy you sleep with but everyone he sleeps with and every one they sleep with ad infinitum. I know this is not a popular opinion but at the end of the day even if they are upset with what they hear at least you are giving them the opportunity to keep themselves safe. talk to the friend if he doesnt get it together then consider going that extra step.

I've a story close to my heart and very relevant to this topic. It involves one of my closest friends in Cape Town, whom I grew up with and "did what teenage boys will do with each other"...We fooled around into our late 20s (no kissing/fucking, but everything else)...He had a girlfriend for 8 years before he married her in his early 30s. To me, he is truly "BI". I came out to them both and all was cool, as she had many gay friends at the time, but never suspected my friend liked things other than T&A....(never underestimate the power of denial)

About 1 year before they finally got married ~ 2000, she actually started wondering about my friend's orientation and asked me and I LIED and said "HELL NO, HE'S STRAIGHT". Just before their wedding we ended up doing a "Broke Back Mountain"scene... (you know very well which one)...

Anyway, my friend had to be "straight" in his mind owing to the life he was living (family/work)....anyway to cut to the chase, I've always loved him very much, but knew I was leaving to live in the US back in '95 and was OUT and he was eventually going to get married and live the "LIE" to satisfy everyone else but himself...

7 years later my friend has a 4 year old son and finds himself in a loveless marriage which he maintains to please his frail 90 something mother and older brothers....he's expressed his total dissatisfaction with his life and how it's turned out and at the same time he is in total envy of mine. C'est la vie.....

The question now begs this: Should I have told her (his girlfriend at the time and current wife) the truth when she asked me about my friend's orientation....If I could go back YES, I would have told her the truth. A kid is now involved and she is devastated that her fairy tale wedding is in tatters owing to my friend's total unhappiness with the situation he's in now. She suspects him, he denies it and well, there you have it....predictable.

I do realize that we can't live the lives of others...you make the bed you sleep in. And no, you should not out others. But, all I've seen in the last 4 years is sadness, despair and unhappiness...not an environment fit for a child to be brought up in and I feel partly responsible as I know I could have changed things.

Tough call. It always is. I think at the end of the day if you REALLY care and love someone you will make the hard choice. The TRUTH has wrecked many a tenuous situation, but lies, well...you know about them...

I think I did my friend a disservice by not being upfront with his girlfriend when I should have been. We had discussed the issues before he got married, but he made the decision to get married then and I respected it. I did not agree with it.

PEACE

daWeatherMan

The potenial danger of catching something bothers me. The fact that many people will be hurt big time through all of this is really sad.

I spoke with him and he listened. He needed to listen cause it was making him sick. He also told me that he had a few fainting smells from anxiety. so I think he is ready to make change.

I have another friend who was the mistress in a 12 year relationship. They shared a condo together. Her boyfriend died and she was devistated that she could not attend the funeral because the family told her that they would have her legs broken if she did. I saw her suffer for months following his death. She never knew that he was married. She even met his children. I thought from time to time that he was married.

She told me later that she had wished that someone would of told her. His best friends used to dine with them and kept it a big secret.

Agree with Dr. Storm.

I also agree coming out is a very personal matter, and youshould not choose to do this for anyone but yourself.

HOWEVER, coming out is not the priority, but a necessary evil in this case.

This is the age of AIDs and HIV. This is EVEN more dire than having kids. This is potentially deadly to some innocent 3rd party...

If you tell on him, youare not doing it toout him, youare doing it to prevent an innocent person the risk she faces with her health and life EVERYTIME she is sexually inimate with this guy..

Just think abou tit again, what if this was your little sister...?

Like what I tell my friends (thi sis a personal view):

The truth may hurt, but hurt at least has the potential to heal...

But deception always destroys all, with irreversible results.

And truth is like the post man, he always comes back twice, he makes sure to get you...

The universe has a way of taking care of these matters --- don't play GOD here. Remember, THE TRUTH ALWAYS HAPPENS.
Just let it...

Not playing God..No one can.

Truth can come a bit too late when results are irreversible..

I am pointing out again that coming out is a very personal choice and experience. No one should do it for anyone bu themselves, when they are ready, if they want to.

However, in cases like this, the consequences of the action of ONE party is SHARED by another... Outing someone ceoms 2nd to letting an innocent 3rd person risk harm.

Truth does come out, but the damages may hve been done, and worse of all, life threatening, and IRREVERSIBLE..

You need to disassociate with a person of such low integrity.

If you think clearing on it, how could you ever trust someone like that in your home? Someone who lies about something as basic as sexuality.

I don't allow dishonest folks in my life. You can't trust a person like that. They have to be discarded.

You need to put as much space as you can between you and this guy. No need to tell on him...he lives his own lies...but..it's unhealthy to have someone so dishonest in your life.

Run, Will Robinson, run. There's no place in a healthy lifestyle for dishonest folks.

I have standing rules about profileless / pictureless. Those rules have served me very well.

If a person can't be honest with basic thing, almost certainly they're a dishonest person loaded with baggage in nearly every part of their lives. Personally, not inviting that additional drama / overhead into my life.

mind your own business. But what chuckystud says is partially true. You really shouldnt be spending time wiht people like that.

Chucky,

ya got my vote. Well said.

-Bryant

The villian/ victim thing is SO big with our society:
HE SAID THAT SHE SAID THAT WE SAID THAT I SAID THAT YOU SAID : We all need to take responsibility for our own lives and stop sticking our noses in others. Two grown people in a grown relationship are responsible for their own circumstances and actions. stirring the drama kettle is not going to help. The messenger usually gets SHOT...And there is always two sides to a story. Anyone ever read Shakespeare ?!!!


x

I would have a talk with your friend and then put some S P A C E between the two of you. It sounds like he has way too much drama in his life.

ChuckyStud,

That is what my inner spirit has told me to do and that is to stay at a distance. If my buddy needs my help, I will be there.

He knows exactly how I feel and I know that It has come to a point in his life that it is affecting his mind-body-spirit. He knows the lies are catching up with him and I give him lots of credit for being honest with me and opening up about the situation. He told me that he trusted me in all of this.

I know who the married guy is and could contact him if I needed to. Both women in this saga I could not contact them if I needed to. I only met his girlfriend once and I met her before I knew what was going on.

It has helped me to understand what others have gone through.

I personally have a married friend who would just love to fool around, he knows where I stand and how I feel. The answer is NO. If the guy was single, I know that he would be my life long partner but I never shared that with him. I am not a marriage wrecker! NOR would I ever want to see someone hurt in the process.

mind your own business. People in glass houses shouldnt throw stones. Get over yourself

Fatal attraction....101.

First...there's 6.5 BILLION folks in the world. It makes no sense to deal with folks of no integrity...none zilch notta' silly dumb etc.

Tell you pee pee to move on. He's taken. He's dysfunctional. He's mentally ill. It's self destructive to even consideration a relationship with someone like that.

Move on. Make other friends. Ditch the bad ones.

Life is to short to worry about his bullshit. You have your own shit. Get a honest person in your life that filles your partner criteria.

Note to yourself: if someone is married, not out, cheating, lies, whines...head the other directions..there's simply to many folks to big from and its to self destructive to take on that baggage.

Just as on one really cares about your sexuality (if they are a quality person), no one cares about a tramp like this guy.

Move on. You'll be the better for it.

Being his friend, I think you should be open with him and tell him what you think.

Beyond that, he's an adult and needs to be responsible for his own actions.

What he really needs to do is get tested.

shit, i can't even get a date - lol

State your concerns to your friend. Then mind your own business. You can't manage someone else's life. It's foolish to try.

What you described primarily involves two consenting ADULTS who are dating. No public marriage vow broken, no children's welfare to consider, no actual (vs. assumed) threat to life or property. Your friends actions are unfortunate, but nothing 'new' to this world.

YES you should sit your friend down and talk to him about your concerns - be as strong as you like - and allow him to choose his course. End your friendship if you need to.

NO - you have no right to tell the girlfriend! Her decision to date him is not your business. She is a CONSENTING party to his actions. She's likely in denial about the truth of their "relationship"... she is his "bisexual" co-dependent whatever her reasons. She must rely on HER friends and family. Did she come to you for help? No.

Sometimes the harshest lessons learned bring the greatest personal growth - eventually. Clearly your friend has much to learn about himself.

Sorry. You can't save him. Nor can you "protect" her as someone suggested.

PM8

PM8:

"She is a CONSENTING party to his actions."

Not a logial argument. SHE IS NOT.

How can be consenting if you have been deceived of the true situation? You give consent to a doctor to operate on you, and this consent is valid ONLY if you were informed the TRUTH about the risks. If this doctor lied to you about the risks involved, then the conset you gave was to a situation that did not exist, therefore thei consent is NOT valid.

Being deceived makes any consent invalid.

"She's likely in denial about the truth of their "relationship"... "

That is also an assumption. To assume taht she is in denial, you must have supporting evidence to support taht claim to assume, and the assumption then has to be proven...

Where is her friends? You are assuming her friends know about this... Again, where does this assumption come from?

How about asking the girlfriend: If you see anotehr girl with this situation, if you were that girl, would you want to know the truth, even from the friend of a friend...

I also want to point out this:

When you consider an advise from someone, examine the person and see if the person is giving baised advise according to their own current situation...

A married man who is gay would obvisouly put priority on not being outted than the health risk of a 3rd innocent party.

A gay man who in other posts stated that he is in an 100% honest and loving, open relationship, yet at the same time back then advertized on his profile as single and looking for other dates and relatinships, he would also obviously place an innocent 3rd person's health risk 2nd to continuing deception.

You need to ask, if this was your little sister, what would you have preferred someone in your situation do?

Have a heart..

One more iligical statement...:

"Did she come to you for help? No."

How can she? She is deceived and doesnt even know there is a serious problem and potentiall harmful to her health and life.

NYCM -

You just spent more than an hour shooting off FOUR (4!) disjointed and poorly spelled posts in reaction to mine.

How "logial" is that?

It's Friday, bud. Try to relax.

PM8

Poorly?

Please list and explain why?

I cetainly have, and with yourown quotes.

You had the same response last time when icalled upon your views, and I also got a general statement such as "Take a Hike!"

There was also no explaination, just like how a teenager shuts at you..

No I am not posting womthing to be published in a jouranl so I am not going to bother with spell checking my typos. No I do not type as you can see, but it does not make my arguments lack any merits or logic...

NYCM -

The record stands.

PM8

Wow... some very good points being made. I'm still on the fence though. If it was my sister or a friend that I love I would want them to be told... I also feel bad about women that have bf's that are gay. I hook up with this one guy from time to time and I fuck him hard in every way we can come up with, kissing, sucking, we do it all. He has a serious girlfriend, I don't know whether to feel sorry for him or for her. He's lying to himself and he'll NEVER stop liking men, and she has no clue. I don't know her to warn her, am I obligated to tell her I'm fucking her bf? Should I feel bad? I'm not friends with either of them. I only know him as being a very cute white guy that loves to take it from a VERY CUTE black guy.

One can only apply this to his own ethical conduct:

Would I want the same done to me?

Am I only doing this for my self interest and take the innocent victim in the situation as unseen, unheard, therefore, I do not care?

We have all done things that are not right when we were younger and was only thinking about our own needs and pleasures.

Since you are even questioning yourself whether what you did was a terrible thing, that means you are already evaluating the reason and cause of your past actions...

Let me give you an analogy of sleeping with someone who is cheating on his partner:

It is no different from a drug dealer selling drug to an underaged teenager with the money he stole from his mother working as a waitress.

Instead of thinking, even that I do not know this woman, I am a DIRECT PARTICIPANT of this terrible event.

The drug dealer is only thinking about the moeny he can make and the next iPod he can buy. He thinks, if it was not me, someone else will sell him the drug, it is his own fault, screw him and his mother.

AS a descent human being with empathy and an adult who is capable to see that his actions can have consequences beyond what is immediately visible, YOU SHOULD ASK YOURSELF, SO SHOULD I BE THE WILLING PARTICIPANT? IT IS UP TO ME TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE.

A couple of responses:

If the guy has confided in RK, that means he's trying to find his way. It also means he trusts him. We can't go about the world policing everyone's sexual behavior.

Also, I have never known anyone in such a situation who didn't later say they wish they had been told. Notice I said "later," as in ex post facto.


Have any of you been in such a situation? I had a compulsively cheating boyfriend years ago. After we broke up, several friends told me they'd been conflicted about whether to tell me but decided not to. I, like everyone, said, "Oh, I wish you had told me." But I knew perfectly well that if they'd told me, I would have been angry at them, not at my cheating partner whose other crazy behavior I'd become skillful at ignoring.

I've seen that a lot in the consulting room. There's no quicker way to bring an estranged couple together than by making a critical observation of their relationship. The couple forms an angry alliance against the therapist to maintain their "denial."

I tend to agree that people of such poor integrity are best avoided. A few years ago, I became aware that a poz friend who was head of an AIDS organization was fucking as many men bareback as he could get his hands on. I was devastated by this and confronted him after a few weeks. I got the usual bullshit about how he's not responsible if his partners don't insist he use a condom. I was so disgusted, angry and sad, I had to distance myself from him.

I remember Obscenewish's account of one of his patients's partner was hitting on him, and when confronted, the patient and his partner actually ganged up on Obscenwish. but later I think this patient thanked him after the eventual break up?

Actually I for one was very upset that many guys who did NOT tell me about my ex's deceptive activities...

I understand that some of them had worries that I may take out my anger towards them, but anyone who knows me knows I value truth more than superficial pleasantness. I actually chose to not be in contact with these people as I really resent they did not tell me when they first knew. I saw it as a conflict of values, that these people values the superficial pleasantness mroe than my well being...

I also know that my younger sister is the same way. She would want to know.

I can only think of very dysfunctional and co-dependent couples who would not care about the truth. If you tell a wife beater taht he is cheating on her, she is not goint to leave this guy because she is not in the relationship for love anyway. She is in it to feed her addiction of the need to be validated through abuse...

You are walking a fine line; he is walking a fine line. There are probably no "good" answers -- whatever you do, or her does, things probably won't be pretty. I liked DrStorm's post. He went one way, but now wishes he had gone the other. But let's suppose he had told the girl friend and she had broken off the relationship and the friend became angry with him, or something along those lines. So now instead of being sad for the friends dysfunctional marriage he might be sad for saying something and loosing the friend. Just because he might have chosen a different response doesn't mean he would be any happier or more comfortable with the outcome.

The second poster said it is an unwritten rule not to out another gay man. Well, the guy in question is messing around and could spread disease around too. If he's dishonest about his relationships to begin with, then he'd probably be dishonest about disease too.

And I am not sure if the guy confided in Rick first, or did Rick catch him doing things while on vacation with him, then he told Rick the whole thing..

I know if it was a friend who was being cheated on, I would tell in a flash. I have done it but in a loving way and I only did it when I was 100% sure.

NYC - I was there for 5 days and this saga unfolded more and more as time went on. He then broke down confided in me due to the fact that it was making him sick. He needed to come clean with someone and it happened to be me.

He has become a good friend and to all of you out there, a friend is a friend and I will respect him 100%. However, he knows how I feel about this behaviour and that I would never rat on him, but I want him to think about what he is doing and how he is affecting others around him.

No you don't tell the victim in this because she'll just turn on you and you'll lose a friend that way
...if you tell anybody you go to the perpetrator and say, "I know what you're doing, and does so and so know about it?"
this way you'll put him on notice
and you've absolved yourself of not having spoken out

GQ,

I really don't know the vitcim that well to say anything. The married guys wife I never met her.

My friend was honest enough to confide all. I saw lots with my own eyes. I questioned a few things that I did not like and that is when it all started to come out. I asked him what was going on once I met the doctor. The doctor wanted a 3-some and I refused.

Right on, GQ.

RK - do you feel you've worked out your dilemma now?

PM8

When it come right down to it, someone always gets hurt.

and PHLMUScle8, what do you care about my dilemma? Your tone stinks!

the truth in this situation is worth loosing a friend over...

I think it's silly that we ask and demand our president and political leaders to be held accountable for their choices and actions, yet when it comes to our own lives we don't think we need accountability.

If you want to be a good friend to this guy, keep him accountable. You may loose him as a friend, but he'll become a better person for it, and hopefully stop this horrible, unhealthy cycle he is in.

He is in over his head, obviously, or he would not have come to you... Do everything in your power to encourage him to come out with the truth on his own...but if he can't do it, then someone needs to.

If this all goes south and he ends up getting HIV and transmitting it to his girlfriend, you will be torturing yourself that you didn't speak up...

Rhythm1438

I could not have said it any better.

And Obscenewish also said that as a therapist he has never seen a patient who would have not wanted to the truth, even if only after the fact...

Are we only concerned if someone, even if a friend, would be in denial and turn on us when confronted of his own destructive behavior towards himself and also an innocoent 3rd party BUT not the well being of everyone in the long run???

If that is the mentality, why not also enable any friends we have with addiction problems by keeping silent and just let them keep drugging or whatever the addiction to avoid "unpleasantness?"

And there is an innocent 3rd party invovled.

Relationships suffer when you value harmony over truth...

I cannot say it any better!

GQ:

"No you don't tell the victim in this because she'll just turn on you and you'll lose a friend that way."

If the girl will turn on you, that is not for LONG TERM. It would be transient.

HIV is LONG TERM.

You will lose a friend.. That comes 2nd to enabling a destructive behavior that can harm your friend himself and an innocent 3rd party with a LONG TERM consequence??

Where is the priority???

What I suggested is to go to the perpetrator..or the source of the matter...put him on notice that you know
...because usually if you go to the one being cheated on they'll likely take it out on you later on
..."Oh, why didn't you tell me sooner"
or..."What else did you know and weren't telling me"

So...?

Alrady explained earlier.., so what if the girl turns on you at one time or another...?

That is not going to be long term as pointed out by another seasoned therapist who worked with couples with similar issues.

Would it be better if she gets HIV and then finds out you knew all along...?

Why would one value temporary "harmony" over something much more serious in the long term such as possible HIV infection to a 3rd innocent person?

There have been cases where ex-girlfriends sue their ex-boyfriends for knowingly putting them at risk for HIV infection. This is not any different.

Besides, Rick already informed the guy who is doing this that he knows...

The important thing is to ask what the situation is teaching you, and how it makes you feel, not to judge the other people. We have no way of knowing what will happen if you tell, and no way of knowing what will happen if you don't. You could assume that the man is gay, and that he is in a loveless marriage, or that he is bi, and promiscuous, but you might be wrong. He is obviously lying, but to who-- his lovers, his wife, you, himself, everyone? And whatever his motivation is, it is possible that he might change. I know people who have cheated on their girlfriends, but who over time learned from their behavior and their feelings that what they were doing was wrong, and they have changed. Some of them have formed successful monogamous relationships and had children, others have realized that they were gay and had happy relationships with men. I truly believe that two of my friends who had gay experiences in the past are now happier with women. I have also known ones who did the opposite, and who gave their partners STIs.

Sometimes, when someone outs gay men, really, really bad things happen to them-- violent things. Other times, it's good for them.

But regardless, your role in this is that you are essentially being asked to lie, or remain silent about something you know, and believe is wrong. What's important for you is that you not continue to do something which you believe is wrong, and if you feel that you need to make amends for something you did in the past, then that IS your business. If you lied for your friend, and you now believe that it is wrong, you need to consider telling the truth.

But correcting mistakes/lies that YOU made in the past is not the same thing as correcting things that someone else did. If your friend is asking you to participate in something that you think is wrong, then by all means, lay down the law. But if you are just an observer, then you should consider telling your friend how you feel, but letting him be the one responsible for the consequences of his actions, not you.

I think she should be told because her health is being put at risk. She would definitely want to know, believe me.

And then maybe you need to find some friends with integrity who don't behave like this.

The coming out issue is irrelevant; the guy has broken his wedding vows why should his privacy be respected when he has so little honesty about himself?

I think you should mind your own business and let him get on with it, after all its his life not yours.

This has been said before, I wonder if you ahve been reading the ehtire post...

This indeed has been quite a suprising sort of study, a survey of how most people would actioninn such a situation...

I have since chosen not to be contact with many "mutual" friends that I shared with my ex BECAUSE they chose to say nothing to me when he was screwing half the town behind my back. I wondered why they would value short termed and superficial pleasantness and harmoney over truth and my emotional and health well being... So my long term choice was to cut my "friendship" with them as this was no different for them to conspire with my ex to deceive me, at my expense...

And again, a 3rd innocent person's health is involved here. To make things more dire, straigth couples who is supposed to be monogamous do not use condoms, it's the women who use pills.

And many instances, bi or gay men who has passed HIV virus to thier girlfriends or wives have unprotected sex with them and never mention condoms for the exact same purpose of keeping the partner from suspecting their mokey business on the side.

As pointed out by a seasoned therapist in earlier posts, some partners being cheated may initially turn on the one who warned them, but ALL of them, for the LONG TERM, eventually expressed that they rather know the truth.

And again, what if this was done to you own littel sister...? Your recommendation to Rick on this thread would DEFINATELY change if this was your borther in law being promiscous with other KNOWN promiscus men while deceiving your little sister... I am certain you would rather her know instead of risking your own sisters the risk of getting HIV for the sake of SHORT termed harmony...

Again, this has been an interesting survey to say the least... It is amazing how much people would avoid unpleasantness, even if it is short term, even if it may protect an innocent 3rd from an IRREVERSIBLE health risk such as HIV..

It reminds me of the famous incident when this woman was chased and being murdered by this attacker in the middle of the night in New York City... A whole block of street residences turned their lights one and heard the cries for help, but all thought, "Oh its none of my business, someone else probably have called 911, and who knows, she could be OK..." The woman was found murdered the next morning...

I agree with NYCMusc4Musc

This is just my two cents. I think you should tell the guy exactly how you feel. Then I think you should take a vacation from this guy. I don't think you should tell on him and I don't think you should comfort him either. I am not sure how his behavior is or could be a positive factor in your lift. If you are very close I would state your case, then drop it.

Confront hime, dj75 I will date you

Stay out of it. He came to you, you expressed your opinions, and he listened. I think that should be the extent of your involvement.

You're not going to change his sexual activities. You're not going to help any of his relationships. You are not going to be appreciated for raising a flag about his behavior.

You are going to distress the girlfriend, damage the marriage, and smear the reputation of the physician.

You're acting like judge & jury on his life. If you don't like his behavior, then don't emulate his behavior - but taking it upon yourself to tell him how to live his life is something I don't think you have a responsibility to do.

It's also possible, just possible, that several of the parties involved already know about what's going on, and choose to let it slide. If you bring it all out in the open, you make that accomodation impossible, and force them to take a stance. Most of the time, when a partner is cheating (gay or straight) the other partner has a pretty good idea something's going on. That they would not necessarily reveal that to you doesn't mean they're clueless.

J.

I have been trying this thing called not talking about people behind their backs, and not tell people what I was told in confidence. It's not your place to say anything. You don't really know the girlfriend, you don't know the wife of the doctor. Are they really going to believe some stranger telling them what they don't want to hear? Probably not.

When I was in high school there was a situation very much like this. With girlfriends of boyfriends, boyfriends girlfriends. Getting involved to protect people that I cared about made me someone they didn't care about. They didn't belive me and now two years later they still don't belive me. Peoples lives were damaged in my small town and things haven't been the same whenever I come back. Those who really care will protect themselves, you don't need to do it.

Guys, It has only been over a month and I support my buddy 100%. He knows that I am there for him around the clock. That's what a friend is for. What he does is his business, even if I don't agree and I am staying out of it.

I would want to know! Plain and simple.

I had a lover who cheated on me. I broke up with with immediately...I forgave him but trust him again NEVER! Because he became a totally diffrent person to me.

I could not beleive who selfish he was. I deined me the right to make an informed decision and no one has to right to do that man or woman.

I do not envy the position that you are and were placed in a it is quite a burden that you have on sholders.

You already know what you have to do. You have gotten a lot of support behind.

If I were in your position I would sing like a CANARY!

There our others peoples lives at stake here!
WOMEN!

To these guys that are in dissent?
I ask WHAT IF IT WAS YOUR MOM, YOU SISTERS, or worse yet for those of you who have children YOUR DAUGHTERS!

You would be single a diffrent tone.

A lot of you guys wo are in their early 30's, 20's and there late teens, do not know the face of AIDS.

If you did like we baby-boomers, you would not be hyppie in your thinking!

Actually, rksportswear knows exactly how I feel about this, so this is not a redundant response to his post.

I just wanted to say that I agree totally with what PSBigJoey says. And I respectfully disgree with Phoenix43. As PSBigJoey stated...you never know exactly what the other parties in this three-way know or don't know. They can have an "accomodation" agreement that is violated if it appears things have gone public.

The wife/boyfriend/whatever don't have the right to expect a stranger who has no direct connection with them should inform them anyway.

On the other hand, I would be discouraging the behavior at the same time as being supportive of the friend. I believe that the feelings toward the friend will be "self-correcting." If he is doing nasty things, or continues to do them, your feelings and support will wane. That's just normal.

But to stick one's nose into this mess would be a big mistake. It's a lose-lose situation for rkswportswear if he does that. He'll lose the friend, he'll probably damage whatever relationship the friend has with the other people...it's just a big catstrophe in the waiting.

John

Agreed. But how weird is it that this guy lets his friends in on it and expects them to keep the secret? That's an unwarranted burden to place on someone.

I once accidentally let the cat out of the bag on someone. Answered the shared office phone and called her fiance by her boyfriend's name. Well, I STILL don't think it was my fault.

I still have to disagree with BigJoe..

1. " You're not going to change his sexual activities. You're not going to help any of his relationships. You are not going to be appreciated for raising a flag about his behavior."

One's action in this scenrio is first of all being a descent human being to alert a possible inncocent 3rd party from possible irrevesible and life threatening harm. Like the example I gave about the true case of a woamn crying for help being chased by this man, and all heard her cry did nothing, and they found her dead the next morning. You are not going to prevent a murderer to stop his ways, but if you see him going after one person, you do something about it. Apperciated for your action? Why is that even en incentive when it comes to alerting someone harm? Do we only do the right thing for other human being ONLY in return of selfish reasons such as recignition and appreciation..?

2. " You are going to distress the girlfriend, damage the marriage, and smear the reputation of the physician."

Again, this distress is a temporary but always, AT THE END, perferred by the vitimized. Just becasue you don;t tell does not change the reality of what is happening. Someone is getting hurt and at risk of getting an irreversible and life threatening disease. What is more distressing? Finding out you got HIV or pretend temporary and superficial harmony?? You are not smearing the reputation of the physician. You are only telling the victim about his behavior, not the local news. Furthermore, your action is not smearig his reputaion if the word does get out, his own action is.

3. " You're acting like judge & jury on his life. If you don't like his behavior, then don't emulate his behavior - but taking it upon yourself to tell him how to live his life is something I don't think you have a responsibility to do."

You are not acting like a judge. The judge in this case should be the victim, the wife or girfriend. You are a facilitator to let the judge know the truth. Similiarly, calling 911 when that poor woman is crying for help is not being a judeg for the murder. It is merely alerting help and truth for the victim, and directing the case to the real judge. You are not married to him, even if you want to be the judge or jury, you have no such power AT ALL... Not a logical argument..

5. " It's also possible, just possible, that several of the parties involved already know about what's going on, and choose to let it slide. If you bring it all out in the open, you make that accomodation impossible, and force them to take a stance."

This is an assumption. It is worth the risk to alert harm. Even if the person does know, you telling her does make accomidation anymore impossible than it has been.. Tell me, how so? How would that be a true statement...? The people who did not call 911 when taht woman was crying for help also had such assumptions, someone already knew...

6. " Most of the time, when a partner is cheating (gay or straight) the other partner has a pretty good idea something's going on. That they would not necessarily reveal that to you doesn't mean they're clueless."

That is also an assumption. Ask the ex-wife of the now gay ex Governor of New Jersey. Some may suspect somethig is going on, but do not assume that they all know something this dire such as possible exposure to guys with HIV is in the picture. This is all assumptions.

Sorry, I simply just disagree...

Furthermore, the relationship is ALREADY damaged.. Dishonesty is damaging, let it be now or later in life. A relationship based on lies? No matter how old, lies not told will always be lies. Giving one the truth is only offering the option, you want to ignor it and continue, you want to acknowledge it and work on it to continue, or you want to acknowledge it and call it the end, it is up to the one being decieved to have truth to make a fair decision on her own behalf, not ot be lied and manipulated into a choice she does not know fully the circumstances.

Loose a friend...? You would conspire with this person to do this deed to a 3rd innocent person...? Why would you even be with a person like this as friend??? Unless you share the same values, and consider deceit as a way of life, and think dishonesty is the foundation for relationships and that superficail harmony is more important than truth, then you SHOULD not tell on him, and be his friend, because you are the SAME as this person if you conspire with him. Just expect him to sleep with your boyfriend and not tell you... Afterall, people like that will do that to their girfirends, boyfriends, friends... Are you the same as him?

"...Lose a friend...? You would conspire with this person to do this deed to a 3rd innocent person...? Why would you even be with a person like this as friend???..."

I think this is an important issue, of course. I again say that we can't make assumptions about what's going on in terms of information sharing between the "cheater" and his "boyfriend/girlfriend" etc. I know from personal experience...in the last several years...that what was "cheating" behavior to the outside world, that I observed in a friend...was not. He

He and his partner had that kind of relationship...one that allowed external connections, sexual or otherwise, as long as the other person did not know about them.

Now, we can disagree with that, or we can choose not to want to do it ourselves...but, the fact remains...had I blindly "reported" my friend's behavior to his partner, then I would have lost my friend (who is a wonderful friend, to this day).

As much as I hate to disagree with my friend, NYCMuscle4Muscle, I don't think it as simple as "conspiring by inaction." I think unless you know all, it is dangerous to interfere.

My very humble.... 3 1/2 cents. :-)

John

"...it is unethical to breach a confidence simply because one believes a third party is at risk of harm. Why should it be any different with a friend?"

That all depends on your values... Some would think the complete opposite... To some, ethics is alerting a 3rd innocent party of harm, even if you do not know this person.

If a friend told me he has stolen, raped, or commited any harmful deed to anotehr, some would think that it would be MORE enthical not to turn this friend in and let the proper authorities to judge his deeds. It is no different from families and friends haboring a fugitive, not thinking about he families of the harmed, and state thier rationale as "ethics of keeping confidenciality." To some, that is highly UNETHICAL..

And I would like to ask: compare the harm of telling and not telling... Transient or long term. How many lessons do we need, hearing cases and cases of women being infected in this manner..? I can tell you that is not a myth (I work in a primarily Hispanic locale and we have a lot of female patients who contracted HIV from thier boyfriends who are in the closet)

To compre this with Irag is just comparing apples and oranges... Irag is not thanking us. These women, ALL of them, said they wished someone would have told them, even strangers.

This is also not a professional "code of ethics" Where did one get that..? One is not acting as an attorney, and who is to say just because an attorney has "professional ethics" that the attorney has ture humility or empathy?

And this is certainly not about morals. You can have sex as much as you want in any safe or no-safe manner, just let your partner know the truth so he or she can make their own decision on their conducts with you as an infomred consenting adult.

To those who so greatly think it is so wrong to let someone else destroy another's life, I highly doubt that you would feel the same if this was happening to your own sister, OR MAYBE you are biased because you yourself have also participated in such acitvities to aid deception and create harm with such persons in the past...

I still highly disagree with Fastprof on this one as well.. There is a HUGE contradiction in the following statment:

" He and his partner had that kind of relationship...one that allowed external connections, sexual or otherwise, as long as the other person did not know about them."

You problagy should have ended the sentence with " as lonhg as the other person did not know about them IN DETAIL." Otherwise it is a contradiction: You cannot mutally allow "something" if you do not know what this "something" is. This "something" has either already occured, or discussed and agree mutually that it will happen. This "something" is not a mystery between the partners. There is no dishonesty here.

AND IF that is the case, the person commiting this deed would NOT feel any guilty, or be afraid to be told, and find a need to tell another gay firend ONLY after he has been observed and caught doing this "something" in secrecy when on vacaiton away fromt he girlfriend. This guy would be very casual about it because there is a generalized contract between 2 consenting adults who are both fully aware of what is going on, omiiting the detials only... This is certainly NOT the case here..

So this is again comparing apples with oranges...

It is a violation of Gay Culture of thousands of years to "tell" on our brothers.

OUT him!

There is FAR too much evidence of the damage that people who are gay/bi and in the closet do the community.

If they want to play in the deep end, they should dive in head first, not sneak in at the side of the pool

rksportswear.
"Don't know what to do, but I know what he is doing is not right."

Who are you to say what HE is doing is not right?

Geesh, why are people so concerned with what OTHER people are doing?

It is BAD GAY FORM to Out anybody unless they are doing harm. You have no evidence of that.I assume all these people are adults? Your anti-sex tirade couched in some hint of "dangerous" is not relevant. Your feelings are irrelevant. It's not your life. Everyone follows their own path, who on earth are you to start interfering with their path?
The sex police?
The morality police?
The I know what's right and true police?
GOD?

I suggest you take some time and truly do some self-reflection to identify exactly what it is that has you so "concerned" about this guy? It is there you'll find your answer and your next step. Good Luck. peace.

one word........Karma

My friend NYCMusc4Musc said:

"...You probably should have ended the sentence with " as lonhg as the other person did not know about them IN DETAIL." Otherwise it is a contradiction: You cannot mutally allow "something" if you do not know what this "something" is..."

It's no contradiction, really. Each knew that they were giving permission for the other to have sex with another person. What they did not allow was for the other to get emotionally involved with the other person.

In short, they were allowing "hookups"....not emotional entanglements. And neither wanted to hear about those graphic details...

Again, I am not saying that I would do this. All I am saying is that I am not going to judge an agreement they had, that works. They are still together. It's not for me or anyone to say: "...together, but not as a loving couple..." because it's up to them, two adults to define that for themselves.

As for rksportswear's friend, it's up to rkswportswear to decide if his friend's behavior warrants termination of the friendship. We're not talking axe murderer here. We're talking about behavior that some people find reprehensible, but others don't.

All I say again, I will not judge in an absolute sense what is wrong or right for other people. I'll just worry about how I conduct myself.

For those that got this far, NYCMusc4Musc and I are friends...the picture I have of him and me on my website does NOT show him strangling me with his well-muscled arm... :-)

I think there is a mis interpretation of language used here..

This is my original post:

"You problagy should have ended the sentence with " as long as the other person did not know about them IN DETAIL." Otherwise it is a contradiction: You cannot mutally allow "something" if you do not know what this "something" is. This "something" has either already occured, or discussed and agree mutually that it will happen. This "something" is not a mystery between the partners. There is no dishonesty here."

And Fastprof's comment actually is saying what I am saying. Just because there is no discussion of details when hook ups occur does not mean the partners is not aware of eachother's deeds..

And I still stand 100% of what I said in my posts above. No, it is not as graphic and immediate as an ax murderer, but someone who is doing this is not any different from someone with a closet of randomly arranged bottles of posion, and then dose the drinks of someone who trusts him, with lies... If you know someon is doing that, what would you do..? Not your business and then later finds out that this person is suffering in the ICU and dying of a long painful death...? No it is not ax murder, but it is still at least willful and deceitful manslaughter.

I do not expect everyone here to agree with me, especially since when you have not witnessed young straight women dying horrific deaths with AIDs they got from their closeted bf's or husbands... The impact is just not the same when you cant see the immediate. Out of sight, out of mind, right? But at least the court agress with me, people have sued thier sex partners for exposing them to HIV and won every time.

I don't think I would ever out someone... I don't feel I have a right to do that to anyone.

I do, however, have a right to decide who I call a friend. And by and large, I don't associate with people who engage in risky behaviors - particularly when they spread that risk to their unknowing significant others.

If I was acquainted with the girlfriend... I might find myself in an awkward position. I might think about making an impicious statement about fidelity, but I wouldn't go near the sexual orientation part.

I definitely would be all over your friend's case, however. Why are you hanging around with someone who would do this to his significant other?

Also - the gay physician thing... Being a healthcare professional does not, in my experience, make a person any less prone to stupidity. I'm aquainted with three gay doctors. One is a nice guy, the other two are total messes - into drugs, etc. "Educated" is not necessarily synonymous with "intelligent."

Actually, I would never out someone just for the sake of outing someone either. Coming out is a very personal experience, and it is the sole right of the person to decide when and how he or she wishe to out, if ever.

However, as I have expressed numerous times with my posts above, outting someone is NOT a HOLY number one priority when it comes to matters like this. The intention of warning someone who is being deceived into physical/health/bodily harm is not to out someone. But just because someone is in the closet does not equate to a holy protection and immunity from the consequences of his actions... And I find it interesting that many members who would put protecting a closeted person as the PRIORITY over the conscious witnessing of an innocent 3rd party possibly getting HIV are mostly closeted and bisexual men themselves...

Furthermore, I am not a physician but I work closely with many. And I never even mentioned "intelligence" or "education." What I was putting forth is the power of immediate and upfront exposure. Being educated does not automatically mean intelligent OR EVEN immune from ignorance. And just because one is a physician does not mean he or she has the immediate and upfront exposure to the horrfic process of death by AIDS... Would you think a general practitioner, who has a private clinic and has not seen a dying person suffering in the ICU with tubes coming out of every orfice, the this physician would be impacted by this image the same way as even just a janitor who cleans these IUC rooms...? What I was talking about is the out of sight, out of mind phenomenon... That was the same thing when that woman was murdered in NYC despite everyeone heard her screams for help and did nothing...

NYC - your argument "You would not say this if this was happening to your little sister" isn't really relevant. Had a relative of his been involved, then he would have a legitimate interest in the situation. As it is, he's a bystander.

I do agree that speaking to the bi guy was a good move. But taking it upon himself to disclose everything to all of the parties involved is stepping over a line.

Likewise your argument that this is the age of HIV and stepping in if someone were being mugged is not valid. You do not know the HIV status of the people involved, and everyone - EVERYONE - has the responsibility to make safe sex decisions for themselves. If the girl or the partner, or the guy on the side is not insisting on safe sex, they bear some responsibility for any unfortunate outcome. I know this sounds harsh - but beyond arguing to the bi guy that safe sex is essential, you can't invade their bedrooms. That's Hardwicke all over again.

A totalitarian system is far safer and better organized than a free democracy with personal liberties (the few we have left). But would you put us all under a microscope? Should there be roving Sex Police to make sure everything is being done as we think it should? The extension of your argument is onerous.

"Those who would trade liberty for security deserve neither liberty nor security." - Benj. Franklin

J.

BigJoey..

"EVERYONE - has the responsibility to make safe sex decisions for themselves. If the girl or the partner, or the guy on the side is not insisting on safe sex, they bear some responsibility for any unfortunate outcome"

I am speaking of reality, not the ideal where EVERY straight couple supposedly in monogamous or even married straight couples are told to be using protection during sex. I take your stand when it comes to gay couples, but not with straight couples... This is the reason:

We are gay men and we also live in a very different sexual culture. Many gay couples, including yourself, practice sexually open relationships and it works very well. However, this is a whole different animal when it comes to straight couples...

Furthermore, how did "totalitarian system" and "free democracy" come into this discussion at all...? "Sex police" and "microscop"...? When did I ever addvocate this...? This is almost like some present day hardcore Repulican, once hearing my poolitical views, immediately accuses me of being thye extreme as a "traitor"... No one is making laws here. No one is telling anyone how to conduct their sexual lives. Everyone is free to practice safe sex or not. Everyone is free to keep it a secret or warn someone.. It is a personal choice, and I am expressing my VALUES with explanations that is logical to myself and how I would conduct my life, I am free to do this and so is the next person free to not do this... This has nothing to do with "totalitrianism."

I also do not get how if this was a relative then it would be all different.... How is my example of human behavior not relevant when compared to that woman being attacked and on one did anything...?

This also happend a few years back where a gay was being attacked with a stolen chain saw RIGHT in public day light inour subway system. Tons of peopel witnessed this but just ran away and never even reported it, until one guy wrestled with this guy and called police, but the old man was in critical condition and almost died..

So lets take taht case of the guy with TB flying all over the world.. If you knew this person had a lethal and contagious disease, would you just not warn all those on the same plane and keep it a secret just because none of your relative is on that plane...?

The people you tell will most likely believe the lie that the partner tells them. You should keep your mouth shut. This happened to me and now I believe the one that told me but for a long time I held a grudge with this person. Turns out I have been lied to alot in this certain relationship just so this person can could continue to live a better life. Everyone always wants to believe the one they love and care for and that is how it should be or there is no sense in being in the relationship. Just let things happen as they will, otherwise you will only lose a friend or two.

I dont think you read the many, many numerous posting above.. What you have just described has ALREADY been discussed at length by many, including Obscenwish, who is a therapist and has had vast experience with this... He even had a patient gang up against him when this patient's bf was confronted in couples therapy