"The great sham of the gay movement is that it is trying to convince the hetero society that we are just like them."

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    Feb 18, 2010 6:06 PM GMT
    Great article about the tyranny of normalization from Gawker:

    http://tinyurl.com/yztxxlx
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    Feb 18, 2010 6:11 PM GMT
    "We will never be like them"

    A small favor of fate.
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    Feb 18, 2010 6:28 PM GMT
    Yes^1,000
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    Feb 18, 2010 6:40 PM GMT
    I totally disagree with this article. The "gays are like other people" approach is best in the present US political climate. The day after we win our full rights we can bring out the boas and the glitter to celebrate. To me it's a matter of choosing the best tactics that achieve our goal, not taking the spoiled path of self-indulgence.

    What arguments do our enemies use most effectively against us? That we behave exactly like this article says we should. This plays right into our opponents' hands.

    Sorry, but this article represents a typical queeny attitude, that we can do anything we want, and make everyone else go along with it just because we say so. Well, we're greatly outnumbered, so we can't and we won't. Our fate will be decided by straights, not by ourselves.

    But this does help to illustrate our present dilemma. It's bad enough we don't have the numbers that other successful movements have had in the past, like women's suffrage and Black American civil rights. But we can't even speak with the same voice, further diluting our strength. It's always "Listen to me! Look at me! Pay attention to me! It's all about ME!"

    Nice if we could subordinate such selfish traits in order to work towards and achieve a common goal. But as I've said before, the gay community is like herding cats. icon_sad.gif
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    Feb 18, 2010 7:26 PM GMT
    hmmm...the other night we watched a program on Mardi Gras in New Orleans.

    I've never seen any gay parade that can match the outrageousness of what went down on the streets during that show.

    Folsom fair? How quaint.

    Try this straight site:

    http://gloriabrame.com/index.htm

    We have her book , "Come Hither" to refer to should any make disdainful remarks about gay appetites for the unusual.
    We both think that in a lot of ways gays are often more staid than their straight counterparts.



    -Doug




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    Feb 18, 2010 7:28 PM GMT
    I think they are different for all the wrong reasons.
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    Feb 18, 2010 7:36 PM GMT
    What after all the trouble many went to prove gays are diffrent, now they want to convince people they are the same.

    Or is that another group of homosexuals with a diffrent agenda. We are not one community and never have been. We don't all have the same wants or needs, nor do we all play the victom.
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    Feb 18, 2010 7:39 PM GMT
    Red_Vespa saidI totally disagree with this article. The "gays are like other people" approach is best in the present US political climate. The day after we win our full rights we can bring out the boas and the glitter to celebrate. To me it's a matter of choosing the best tactics that achieve our goal, not taking the spoiled path of self-indulgence.

    What arguments do our enemies use most effectively against us? That we behave exactly like this article says we should. This plays right into our opponents' hands.

    Sorry, but this article represents a typical queeny attitude, that we can do anything we want, and make everyone else go along with it just because we say so. Well, we're greatly outnumbered, so we can't and we won't. Our fate will be decided by straights, not by ourselves.

    But this does help to illustrate our present dilemma. It's bad enough we don't have the numbers that other successful movements have had in the past, like women's suffrage and Black American civil rights. But we can't even speak with the same voice, further diluting our strength. It's always "Listen to me! Look at me! Pay attention to me! It's all about ME!"

    Nice if we could subordinate such selfish traits in order to work towards and achieve a common goal. But as I've said before, the gay community is like herding cats. icon_sad.gif


    But Red have you not spent most of your life with equality, and not as one of us!
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    Feb 18, 2010 7:44 PM GMT
    meninlove saidWe both think that in a lot of ways gays are often more staid than their straight counterparts.

    -Doug

    Well, dear friends (and so lovely to see your wedding pic back up!), I will venture to go a little further. I think gay men are superior in more ways than just being staid, if that's a virtue at times, than most straight men I've ever met. (With a nod to another thread running about men who think they're superior)

    We gays undervalue ourselves. Not surprising, with all the negative flack we get from the world, even from our own world, during our entire lives.

    But I have lived in both those worlds, and one thing I can do is judge a man. And a gay man can stand toe-to-toe with a straight man regarding anything, from military service to fitness to love & commitment. Not to mention how to puddle drapes, if that ever comes back in fashion. icon_rolleyes.gif

    OK, seriously, and getting a little far afield from your post, I just get so pissed when gay men write themselves off, and fail to realize what potential power we have. We are smarter, and harder working, and more capable than we realize (OMG, I'm doing Stuart Little here), and the time is long overdue that we take our place on the stage, and get the respect, admiration, and rights that we deserve. Who's with me?
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    Feb 18, 2010 8:00 PM GMT
    well, conformity and normalization IS boring, so why does everybody want to have the straight peoples' marriage? one of the definitions of conformity IMO is marriage.

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    Feb 18, 2010 8:09 PM GMT
    judoguy, to us that's a little like saying wearing levis is conformity because straight people do too.

    Shall we give up driving our truck?

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    Feb 18, 2010 8:10 PM GMT
    meninlove said hmmm...the other night we watched a program on Mardi Gras in New Orleans.
    I've never seen any gay parade that can match the outrageousness of what went down on the streets during that show.
    Folsom fair? How quaint.
    Try this straight site:
    http://gloriabrame.com/index.htm
    We have her book , "Come Hither" to refer to should any make disdainful remarks about gay appetites for the unusual.
    We both think that in a lot of ways gays are often more staid than their straight counterparts.


    I interviewed Gloria and her two co-authors of her first book, "A Different Loving," which is about BDSM. Would you believe that at the time -- and it was long ago -- she didn't want me to print that she and her husband were into the kind of sex they were writing about?

    It is amazing how many people into kinky sex are ashamed of it. I assume she's outgrown that by now.
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    Feb 18, 2010 8:13 PM GMT
    judoguy saidwell, conformity and normalization IS boring, so why does everybody want to have the straight peoples' marriage? one of the definitions of conformity IMO is marriage.

    Well at last somebody has dared to say it.
    I always thought we had other issues that were higher priority, e.g., job discrimination, because they affect all of us instead of those who want to be heteronormative.
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    Feb 18, 2010 8:16 PM GMT
    judoguy saidwell, conformity and normalization IS boring, so why does everybody want to have the straight peoples' marriage? one of the definitions of conformity IMO is marriage.



    I have no interest in that, since I was married to a woman before and don't want to repeat it just because I can with my own gender. I used to oppose marriage altogether, and then I saw the ecstatic looks of people during that week or 10 days they could get married in San Francisco.
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    Feb 18, 2010 8:17 PM GMT

    Obscenewish said, " I interviewed Gloria and her two co-authors of her first book, "A Different Loving," which is about BDSM. Would you believe that at the time -- and it was long ago -- she didn't want me to print that she and her husband were into the kind of sex they were writing about?

    It is amazing how many people into kinky sex are ashamed of it. I assume she's outgrown that by now."

    Very cool. I would have loved to have been there. "Come hither" can be a, erm, recipe book for us monogamous types. And I'll Shut Up Right Now.

    -Doug
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    Feb 18, 2010 8:20 PM GMT
    It doesn't take a mental giant to understand that if you show your similarities more than your differences, you are going to win over more anti-gay people. I do it all the time. And the reaction is usually "I can't believe you are gay," which I take as compliment because their notion of gay being bad and odd is blown away. They walk away more educated and more tolerant.
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    Feb 18, 2010 8:24 PM GMT
    wrestlervic saidIt doesn't take a mental giant to understand that if you show your similarities more than your difference, you are going to win over more anti-gay people. I do it all the time. And the reaction is usually "I can't believe you are gay," which I take as compliment because their notion of gay being bad and odd is blown away. They walk away more educated and more tolerant.


    Actually, I think being gay is much better and feel I have a responsibility to inform people of such. "Go back to your hovel with your three bawling children and leave me to my fabulousness."
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    Feb 18, 2010 8:25 PM GMT
    meninlove saidjudoguy, to us that's a little like saying wearing levis is conformity because straight people do too.

    Shall we give up driving our truck?



    well, wearing levis isn't exactly non- conformist icon_lol.gif
    (and you do have the choice to make your own clothes and maybe get a custom made solar powered car ;D )

    but seriously though, there are lots of straight people too, who don't feel like conforming to the institution of marriage. All I'm saying (albeit a tad provocatively) is, we don't have to do it the same way (as them).
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    Feb 18, 2010 8:26 PM GMT
    ObsceneWish said
    wrestlervic saidIt doesn't take a mental giant to understand that if you show your similarities more than your difference, you are going to win over more anti-gay people. I do it all the time. And the reaction is usually "I can't believe you are gay," which I take as compliment because their notion of gay being bad and odd is blown away. They walk away more educated and more tolerant.


    Actually, I think being gay is much better and feel I have a responsibility to inform people of such. "Go back to your hovel with your three bawling children and leave me to my fabulousness."


    No no, that is step 2 in the process. First you let them know that you are pretty much like them, and then when we are assimilated, we raise the bar and make the head rock back and forth. "Oh no honey, you WISH you were gay like me!"

    icon_lol.gif
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    Feb 18, 2010 8:29 PM GMT
    judoguy saidwell, conformity and normalization IS boring, so why does everybody want to have the straight peoples' marriage? one of the definitions of conformity IMO is marriage.

    The answer is our standing under the law. Without marriage we have no rights to protect us as a couple, and are denied benefits, at least in the US, that straight couples have.

    In addition, it is also a matter of attitude & respect. Until we have gay marriage, our gay unions are no more than our own fantasies, that the rest of the world disregards and denigrates. We might as well be little children, acting out the charade of adult marriage as some used to do when I was young, "playing house" without there being any lasting significance.

    So screw conformity; the issue is the LAW. Without legal gay marriage, we're just little kids playing house. And "Mommie" & "Daddie" can come in any time they want and break it up.
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    Feb 18, 2010 8:39 PM GMT
    Red_Vespa said
    judoguy saidwell, conformity and normalization IS boring, so why does everybody want to have the straight peoples' marriage? one of the definitions of conformity IMO is marriage.

    The answer is our standing under the law. Without marriage we have no rights to protect us as a couple, and are denied benefits, at least in the US, that straight couples have.

    In addition, it is also a matter of attitude & respect. Until we have gay marriage, our gay unions are no more than our own fantasies, that the rest of the world disregards and denigrates. We might as well be little children, acting out the charade of adult marriage as some used to do when I was young, "playing house" without there being any lasting significance.

    So screw conformity; the issue is the LAW. Without legal gay marriage, we're just little kids playing house. And "Mommie" & "Daddie" can come in any time they want and break it up.



    I would advocate, like Michael Warner, that special privileges accorded the married should be extended to all. But that's probably less likely to happen than legalizing gay marriage.
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    Feb 18, 2010 8:41 PM GMT
    Red_Vespa said
    judoguy saidwell, conformity and normalization IS boring, so why does everybody want to have the straight peoples' marriage? one of the definitions of conformity IMO is marriage.

    The answer is our standing under the law. Without marriage we have no rights to protect us as a couple, and are denied benefits, at least in the US, that straight couples have.

    In addition, it is also a matter of attitude & respect. Until we have gay marriage, our gay unions are no more than our own fantasies, that the rest of the world disregards and denigrates. We might as well be little children, acting out the charade of adult marriage as some used to do when I was young, "playing house" without there being any lasting significance.

    So screw conformity; the issue is the LAW. Without legal gay marriage, we're just little kids playing house. And "Mommie" & "Daddie" can come in any time they want and break it up.


    I think it'd be great for gay couples to be protected by the LAW, but to me, when I follow you americans argue about this topic, it seems most people are fighting over a word, "marriage", and the right to walk down the aisle of a church, rather than the real issue as you pointed out.

  • Anto

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    Feb 18, 2010 8:43 PM GMT
    Is that article talking about flaming male homosexuals or just normal male homosexuals?
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    Feb 18, 2010 8:48 PM GMT
    Remove the notion of romantic love from marriage or civil partnership or whatever it will ultimately be called. Why should two people have to be in romantic love or have a committed sexual relationship to enjoy the benefits given to those who say they are? The world is surely a lonely, ugly place for many who grow old alone. A lot of that could be staved off by contracts promising to care for the other party in the event it's necessary. Survivor benefits, visitation rights, etc. should be given to anyone with such a contract, be it blessed by a church or not. And yes, this includes siblings. If a brother and sister, two sisters, two brothers, whatever, decide that going forward, that they will be the other living half of the other, then, why not? There is nothing special about a man and a woman that says a couple made up of an unrelated man and woman deserve more than others.
  • Anto

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    Feb 18, 2010 8:50 PM GMT
    I think it'd be great for gay couples to be protected by the LAW, but to me, when I follow you americans argue about this topic, it seems most people are fighting over a word, "marriage", and the right to walk down the aisle of a church, rather than the real issue as you pointed out.

    It's because of the what the word 'marriage' means under the law.