Utah Has Now Made Miscarriage A Criminal Offense

  • metta

    Posts: 39144

    Feb 27, 2010 6:47 AM GMT
    Utah Has Now Made Miscarriage A Criminal Offense
    http://crooksandliars.com/nicole-belle/utah-has-now-made-miscarriage-crimina
  • dreamer121

    Posts: 265

    Feb 27, 2010 1:31 PM GMT
    Ridiculous.

    You know, I visited SLC and it was gorgeous, the scenery and the men... kinda makes me upset that such an awesome place feels so backwards sometimes.
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    Feb 27, 2010 1:50 PM GMT
    That is fairly misleading. From what I can see the law makes inducing miscarriage illegal.

    I really don't see how it serves the progressive argument to actually exaggerate the legislative agenda of the Mormon church. It seems to me that those arguments are better depicted as rationally and equitably as they can be.

    By the way, I see abortion as the moral equivalent of pozzing (that's where guys go and look for "toxic-loads" in order to sero-convert.) At least, I see it that way amongst the middle class who have ready access to birth control and condoms.

    In general I see abortion as a consequence of the poverty of ideas in our nation. When we don't educate everyone about human sexuality then this is the inevitable result.

    Personally I would prefer to live in a society where everyone knows all of the dangers of unprotected sex, education was pervasive, and abortion was illegal past the first trimester. As it is we live in a society where abortion is legal and education is either illegal or "Calvinized" to the point of being useless.

    I support a woman's choice only because there isn't a better alternative available.
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    Feb 27, 2010 1:53 PM GMT
    I think there may be a little confusion about this law, it is too ridiculous even for Utah. The problem is the use of the word "miscarriage." The law refers to women who intentionally try to miscarry. From reading all the comments, this law is supposedly in response to a 17 year old who told some people to beat her up so she would miscarry. The problem is the vagueness of this law, and how disastrous it can be when applied.
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    Feb 27, 2010 2:19 PM GMT
    That State must have a bunch of short bus riding 'tards running it!!!!
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    Feb 27, 2010 2:24 PM GMT
    Buffyfan84 saidThe problem is the vagueness of this law, and how disastrous it can be when applied.

    And that IS the problem, the unintended consequences when zealots push through laws because God told them.

    It could make legal sense to criminalize intentional miscarriage, if you likewise already support laws that make it a double homicide to kill a pregnant woman, where the fetus also dies. But that would logically make a planned abortion a murder, as well, which is actually what anti-abortionists want.

    You chip away here, you chip away there, and eventually you get abortions once again illegal and unavailable in the US. These people are remorseless in their goals, whether anti-abortion, or anti-gay, another aim most of this same crowd shares.
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    Feb 27, 2010 2:25 PM GMT
    They kept the legislation loosely written. Has one of your wives offended you somehow? Did she not carry to term because she didn't get the right amount of sleep? Lock the bitch up.
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    Feb 27, 2010 2:28 PM GMT
    McGay saidThey kept the legislation loosely written. Has one of your wives offended you somehow? Did she not carry to term because she didn't get the right amount of sleep? Lock the bitch up.

    Well, the Mormons, along with the Catholics, Baptists (and let's not forget the Muslims), and some other religious groups consider women to be baby factories, subordinate to the will of their husbands. This makes perfectly good sense in Utah.
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    Feb 27, 2010 2:36 PM GMT
    Women as baby factories are the only factories left in America producing anything.
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    Feb 27, 2010 2:48 PM GMT
    McGay saidWomen as baby factories are the only factories left in America producing anything.


    Win
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    Feb 27, 2010 2:53 PM GMT
    McGay saidWomen as baby factories are the only factories left in America producing anything.


    HAHA
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    Feb 27, 2010 2:56 PM GMT
    If you really wanna know how Fundamentalist Mormons treat women (much, much worse than mainstream religions) read Jon Krakauer's book, "Under the Banner of Heaven."

    Really interesting read.... goes into the roots of Mormonism and the psychology of religious zealots and extremists.

    Or maybe I only found it interesting because I'm an EX-Mormon... LOL
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    Feb 27, 2010 3:05 PM GMT
    Red_Vespa said
    You chip away here, you chip away there, and eventually you get abortions once again illegal and unavailable in the US. These people are remorseless in their goals, whether anti-abortion, or anti-gay, another aim most of this same crowd shares.

    Well this is an interesting little snippet from the bill:

    CRIMINAL HOMICIDE AND ABORTION AMENDMENTS64 (b) There shall be no cause of action for criminal homicide for the death of an unborn
    65 child caused by an abortion, as defined in Section 76-7-301 .

    So basically, abortion IS protected, and not part of this "intentional miscarriage" law.

    I agree with Ursa, I don't think abortion is a "womyn's rights" issue, but rather a sexual responsibility issue. It's the lack of education and stigma of premarital sex that causes the "need" for so many abortions, and with proper education, greater access and availability of contraceptives, and more sexual maturity on the part of everyone, the "need" for abortions will sharply decrease.

    On a tangential note, I know that the abortion issue seems to be the feminist's holy grail, but honestly, I think that promoting on-demand abortions is about the least feminist thing a person can do. A woman's ability to bear and suckle offspring is what MAKES her a woman, and I find the disgust some feminists feel for their own bodies completely reprehensible. Until the women's rights movement begins to celebrate the uniqueness of their gender, they're just setting back the entirety of women's rights.
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    Feb 27, 2010 3:13 PM GMT
    HotToddy said
    Red_Vespa said
    You chip away here, you chip away there, and eventually you get abortions once again illegal and unavailable in the US. These people are remorseless in their goals, whether anti-abortion, or anti-gay, another aim most of this same crowd shares.

    Well this is an interesting little snippet from the bill:

    CRIMINAL HOMICIDE AND ABORTION AMENDMENTS64 (b) There shall be no cause of action for criminal homicide for the death of an unborn
    65 child caused by an abortion, as defined in Section 76-7-301 .

    So basically, abortion IS protected, and not part of this "intentional miscarriage" law.

    I agree with Ursa, I don't think abortion is a "womyn's rights" issue, but rather a sexual responsibility issue. It's the lack of education and stigma of premarital sex that causes the "need" for so many abortions, and with proper education, greater access and availability of contraceptives, and more sexual maturity on the part of everyone, the "need" for abortions will sharply decrease.

    On a tangential note, I know that the abortion issue seems to be the feminist's holy grail, but honestly, I think that promoting on-demand abortions is about the least feminist thing a person can do. A woman's ability to bear and suckle offspring is what MAKES her a woman, and I find the disgust some feminists feel for their own bodies completely reprehensible. Until the women's rights movement begins to celebrate the uniqueness of their gender, they're just setting back the entirety of women's rights.


    No offense, but gay men discussing the womens rights movements with any air of authority is laughable at best.
  • roadbikeRob

    Posts: 14372

    Feb 27, 2010 3:35 PM GMT
    What an idiotic law, what is the criminal penalty for violating this miscarriage law? Utah is really making a mockery of itself. I guess the Utah state legislature has a lot of time on its hands these days.
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    Feb 27, 2010 3:57 PM GMT
    GwgTrunks said
    HotToddy said
    Red_Vespa said
    You chip away here, you chip away there, and eventually you get abortions once again illegal and unavailable in the US. These people are remorseless in their goals, whether anti-abortion, or anti-gay, another aim most of this same crowd shares.

    Well this is an interesting little snippet from the bill:

    CRIMINAL HOMICIDE AND ABORTION AMENDMENTS64 (b) There shall be no cause of action for criminal homicide for the death of an unborn
    65 child caused by an abortion, as defined in Section 76-7-301 .

    So basically, abortion IS protected, and not part of this "intentional miscarriage" law.

    I agree with Ursa, I don't think abortion is a "womyn's rights" issue, but rather a sexual responsibility issue. It's the lack of education and stigma of premarital sex that causes the "need" for so many abortions, and with proper education, greater access and availability of contraceptives, and more sexual maturity on the part of everyone, the "need" for abortions will sharply decrease.

    On a tangential note, I know that the abortion issue seems to be the feminist's holy grail, but honestly, I think that promoting on-demand abortions is about the least feminist thing a person can do. A woman's ability to bear and suckle offspring is what MAKES her a woman, and I find the disgust some feminists feel for their own bodies completely reprehensible. Until the women's rights movement begins to celebrate the uniqueness of their gender, they're just setting back the entirety of women's rights.


    No offense, but gay men discussing the womens rights movements with any air of authority is laughable at best.


    But I am pretty sure it was almost entirely men that voted to pass this legislation. Out of the 29 members of the Utah senate, only five are women and of 75 in the house, 21 are women. I do not know how they voted, but most of the women are Democrats.
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    Feb 27, 2010 4:23 PM GMT
    I think the United States should miscarry Utah.
  • Sebastian18

    Posts: 255

    Feb 27, 2010 4:24 PM GMT
    JoeB1986 saidI think the United States should miscarry Utah.


    WIN
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    Feb 27, 2010 4:33 PM GMT
    In Utah, don't they consider Discovery a porn channel?
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    Feb 27, 2010 4:53 PM GMT
    Gwg Trunks said -- "No offense, but gay men discussing the womens rights movements with any air of authority is laughable at best."

    What do you mean, some of my best friends are women icon_biggrin.gif

    Seriously, the reductio ad absurdum of this logic implies that no one is qualified or permitted to discuss a topic outside of their own personal experience.

    That would mean that having an intellectually honest and coherent world view isn't enough. I still cannot offer an argument against the cessation of genocide in the Democratic Republic of Congo because I neither understand the terms of the conflict precisely nor have experience with genocide. My opposition for the forced circumcision of women is just an ill conceived mix of paternalism and occidentalism.

    My opinion may be laughable. I'll accept that. However, the women's rights movement has long sought coalition with gay men. If women ask for my vote then women give me franchise to express an opinion.

    Here is what I believe:

    1.) Universal sex education based on biology not theology

    2.) Universal and free availability of condoms and other birth control methods.

    3.) Abortion should be 100% legal through the first trimester.

    4.) After the first trimester abortion should be legal with the approval of a judge in family court.

    ******

    Sorry to say this, because I know it will get me a lot of flack. One of my favorite subjects is astronomy. I really enjoy watching the Hubblecast, where it is frequently speculated that single-celled life may exist in ice volcanoes on the moons of Jupiter and Saturn.

    We are scientifically willing to recognize protoplasmic life on Jupiter's moons but not in the womb. I find that intellectually dishonest. It implies to me that our society is incapable of making moral choices, be they simple or difficult.

    I feel really certain that these kinds of morally ambiguous questions are poorly served by dogma, be it liberal or conservative.
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    Feb 27, 2010 7:12 PM GMT
    The meddling into reproductive freedom of women is pretty disgusting.
  • swimbikerun

    Posts: 2835

    Feb 27, 2010 7:19 PM GMT
    chuckystud saidThe meddling into reproductive freedom of women is pretty disgusting.
    So you side with the women who choose to use their vaginas as little Auschwitz ovens? Baby killers!!!

    Seriously though what's next? Outlawing coat hangers? Once again, rich white men deciding what is best for everyone else.
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    Feb 27, 2010 7:25 PM GMT
    swimbikerun said
    chuckystud saidThe meddling into reproductive freedom of women is pretty disgusting.
    So you side with the women who choose to use their vaginas as little Auschwitz ovens? Baby killers!!!

    Seriously though what's next? Outlawing coat hangers? Once again, rich white men deciding what is best for everyone else.
    .

    Well said.
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    Feb 27, 2010 7:47 PM GMT
    Great quote in the Salt Lake Tribune about this issue:

    "Rep. Christine Johnson, D-Salt Lake City, spoke passionately against the bill, which she said targets one isolated incident.

    'This bill does something horrible,' said Johnson, a single mother and lesbian who is carrying a child for a gay couple.

    'Six-thousand women lose their babies every year through no fault of their own,' Johnson said, concerned that HB12 could worsen an already traumatic event. 'An overly unhappy father, disappointed at the loss of his child, with one phone call to police could make that woman subject to interrogation.'"

    And another great viewpoint from The Huffington Post: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/emma-rubysachs/utah-cant-afford-twelfth_b_477981.html

    The cost of interrogation and prosecution would be ridiculous. But it's also hard to dictate what a person can or cannot do to her or his own body.

    Would it force those single mothers who are planning on harming their own bodies to abort their mistakes to face their responsibilities? But then again, who ends up paying for their mistakes if they keep them around?
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    Feb 28, 2010 4:47 PM GMT
    GwgTrunks said
    No offense, but gay men discussing the womens rights movements with any air of authority is laughable at best.

    So then by your logic, a heterosexual female would have no business discussing the gay rights movement.