meat, meat, meat

  • Artesin

    Posts: 482

    Jan 18, 2008 6:59 AM GMT
    What is it about meat that seems like it is a staple for muscle building to go smoothly? Obviously vegetarians like myself substitute meat with items such as whey protein, creatine and glutamine along with high calorie diets and healthy fats with other supplements such as b12/omegas. So even with all these supplements and a 2-3000 calorie diet: what does meat hold that these supplements can not mimic? There is much confusion around the topic but does anyone have some verified information or opinions? Obviously I'm not gonna do a 180 and begin eating meat again but some enlightening information on the dubject would be nice.

    Also weight gain shakes contain what other than creatine and protein that aids in development?
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    Jan 18, 2008 2:42 PM GMT
    I'm no doc, but I like reading up on this type of stuff even if a good chunk of it goes over my head. This is from a book put out by Men's Health that I just read:

    "Protein is made of amino acids....The best protein sources contain all nine of the essential amino acids in relatively the same amounts that your body requires. The next best contain all of the essential aminos, but a few of the values fall below your body's needs. The worst proteins are either missing an amino altogether or provide low values of most or all of the essential aminos."

    Then it lists some of the BEST as "dairy products (especially cottage cheese), eggs, beef, pork, poultry, fish, oats, nuts, and soy protein," NEXT BEST including "beans, seeds, and cornmeal" and WORST "White or wheat breads, peas, rice, potatoes, pasta and gelatin".

    "At this point, you may wonder why vegetarians don't collapse into gelatinous heaps from eating foods missing essential aminos. That's because your body can combine incomplete proteins to make complete ones. The only problem with this strategy is that relying on incomplete proteins can lead to incomplete muscle development. We don't mean that the muscles themselves will be incomplete - your vegan friend isn't missing half a biceps. He just won't grow as much muscle as we meat eaters do, when all else is equal."

    This is all from The Testosterone Advantage Plan, a Men's Health book by Lou Schuler and some other people. Like I said, I'm no doc, but Men's Health stuff tends to make pretty concise, easy to read stuff that makes more sense to me than if I read the studies or did the research myself. If anyone knows better than this stuff, though, I'd love to know about it.

    From what I got out of the book, the meat v. other sources of protein thing is mostly an efficiency issue. That being said, I eat pretty much everything. I think it's interesting that the book is written assuming the reader isn't a vegetarian, too. Hope this was helpful some.
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    Jan 18, 2008 2:46 PM GMT
    And upon rereading your post, I failed to notice the last part, about shakes. What I was taught by a buddy was to read the container carefully, there's no real magic ingredient you get from those things that you can't get from a good diet, it's just a good way to put back a lot of stuff quickly in liquid form. Again "as I understand it," more a matter of personal preference and opportunity than what's actually going into your body.

    note- edited my post because my grammar sucks
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    Jan 18, 2008 3:46 PM GMT
    Why should I take supplements and a larger variety of foods to obtain what I can get in a smaller more compact food?

    One filet of fish or ...

    Do you like to go to the store and buy all the parts of a computer and solder it together then assemble it yourself, or is getting a ready made system that is already spec'd out to work good more appealing?

    My knowledge of a supplements is certainly lacking, but I trust their advertising and labeling as much as I trust all other advertising. That is to say, I don't. Read and study carefully.
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    Jan 18, 2008 3:59 PM GMT
    Maybe there's something to the simple wisdom of "you are what you eat".

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    Jan 18, 2008 4:01 PM GMT
    well, fooled me again...I saw the title of this thread and I thought....er.....
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    Jan 18, 2008 4:07 PM GMT
    JP, were you looking for some meat?

    hunk0326.jpg

    or some ... cock?

    radcliffe_cock.jpg

    icon_twisted.gif
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    Jan 18, 2008 4:10 PM GMT
    R O F L
  • Alan95823

    Posts: 306

    Jan 18, 2008 4:32 PM GMT
    Honestly, from a totally non-scientific viewpoint, the biggest advantage meat has over vegetarian alternatives is: availability.

    You can get it anywhere, it's not hard to find leaner versions of it and avoid a lot of the crap, and it's pretty easy to prepare. You have a hard time finding vegetarian food options at some restaurants, and in some places your only alternative is a green salad.

    Don't get me wrong, I love snacking on raw veggies and fruit, and I use tofu a couple of times a week, but I still enjoy meat too. Flavor and convenience has a lot to do with many peoples meat choices, I imagine.
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    Jan 18, 2008 4:33 PM GMT
    Firefighter...you're just TOO funny!! LOL
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    Jan 18, 2008 4:42 PM GMT
    hahahah, thanks icon_smile.gif


    note: To whomever is viewing realjock.com through the palary.org proxy, I've updated my hotlinking filter to allow palary to see the images.
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    Jan 18, 2008 5:50 PM GMT
    I am not sure why there is such an either-or mentality. You are either a vegetarian or a blood-hungry carnivore. Meat is a great source of protein. So are soy, dairy, and eggs. Omnivores probably eat too much meat and not enough non-animal protein sources. But vegetarians probably have too much man-boob making, estrogen rich soy.
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    Jan 18, 2008 5:52 PM GMT
    Oh, I love a good steak, and I surely do love me veggies too!
  • kinetic

    Posts: 1125

    Jan 18, 2008 7:39 PM GMT
    "Obviously vegetarians like myspace"
    INTERNET FREUDIAN SLIP! 2 cute!
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    Jan 18, 2008 7:44 PM GMT
    kinetic said"Obviously vegetarians like myspace"
    INTERNET FREUDIAN SLIP! 2 cute!


    Is that due to the high number of emos on there? ;-)
  • kinetic

    Posts: 1125

    Jan 18, 2008 8:57 PM GMT
    I was just referring to how he seemed to have typed 'myspace' instead of 'myself'
    Check out the 1st post from the guy who started the thread. -you'll see it.
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    Jan 18, 2008 10:59 PM GMT
    Red meat has saturated fat, B complex, creatine, and good stuff to help you grow. Nothing like it for being strong and vibrant. There are complete proteins in meats, as well, as opposed to incomplete from other sources.

    You have to read up on your nutrition to get all the details.
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    Jan 18, 2008 11:48 PM GMT
    Their is the argument around complete and incomplete chains of protein but with the right combination of vegetarian options you can in effect bridge the gap, it just makes it more tedious and monitoring is harder.

    If you were to buy convenience vegetarian food there is so much fat in it, even the lower fat options soon add up way above the proportion you should be eating
  • Artesin

    Posts: 482

    Jan 19, 2008 7:32 AM GMT
    Well for some reason there is a popular misconception that vegetarians don;t get much protein from their diets which is false. Don't forget that vegetarians eat eggs, milk, yogurt ect. Meat may be a happy well rounded bundled package that delivers whats needed to gain muscle but so many people believe that it is the only way. A lot of posts here aren't even helping to answer the question or put forth anything useful.

    I just love the idea that soy is portrayed as a substance which leads to breast growth in men and that vegetarians diets are so high in it. using myself as an example that is false. I get less than 20 grams of it a day, the recommended for a normal man is 30 due to heart health. The recommended protein amount for a day is 50 grams for basic health. This obviously says something. Take an oriental persons diet: it is high in soy protein. Soy is a staple when it comes to their diet and I do not see very many oriental men toting around flabby breast tissue. Dont forget that hereditary and chemical levels also lead to the breast issue, seeing as estrogen is converted to testosterone.

    I originally asked what supplements, and a well balanced high protein diet lacks that meat can make up for. This has nothing to do with convenience, moreso knowledge and curiosity.

    Lets say hypothetically that a vegetarian is eating 200 grams of protein a day (in a 2500 calorie diet), 30 of that being dairy/eggs, 30 of it being micro protein (quorn products), 25 from grains, 15 from nuts/beans, 10 from soy, 10 from vegetables and the rest from whey. This being in question is also taking 5-10 grams of creatine a day, 2 teaspoons of glutamine, multi vitamin, and one teaspoon of flax seed oil. The diet is well balanced and seems like it would contain all the amino acids needed. Just to make matters simpler coconut oil is used for some cooking/smoothies/salad dressing what have you, which contains chained saturated fats. What does this person lack? in theory it seems as if they could gain at the same rate as an omnivore.

    This of course is for my own personal knowledge and my curiosity as to why meat is revered as the prime and only source to gain muscle while everything else is inferior to those who have never tried a diet like this, so have little room to talk.


    Ahaha omg I did type myspace in the first post, thats funny as I dont go on there more than twice a day for less than 5 minutes. Guess I was thinking about a message I received from an old friend earlier that day, can't forget it was quite late too >.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jan 19, 2008 7:48 PM GMT
    Dear Death_Dodge.
    I am not sure if you know or not but it is impolite to refer to an Asian person as Oriental. Just FYI... Otherwise I like your posts.icon_biggrin.gif
  • Artesin

    Posts: 482

    Jan 19, 2008 8:35 PM GMT
    Haha probably, 3 am while thinking about oriental food doesn't help : P. Thanks >.
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    Jan 19, 2008 9:04 PM GMT
    death_dodge, i don't have anything against a veggie diet. nor do i have anything against a vegetarian. or any mix from one extreme to the other. i have veggietale friends and we get along great. what gets my feathers in a tuft is the inciteful threads that get started way too frequently in my opinion and they pretty much follow the following steps.

    Steps:

    1) start thread
    2) call meat eaters bad things directly or clearly imply it
    3) [optional] post graphic pictures
    4) ...
    5) react immaturely to everyone who disagrees with you and blindly praise everyone who agrees
    6) wait a few days for the boiling pots to cool down then return to (1)

    hippie has directly said he has no intention of changing anyone's attitude and he enjoys being hated so much.

    so, what is the real point of the threads?

    p.s. my comment about bra sizes of A, B, C, DD, and Soy was purely humor. like most things that "cause cancer", the actual happening is likely due to an excess.
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    Jan 19, 2008 9:11 PM GMT
    FirefighterBlu3 saidp.s. my comment about bra sizes of A, B, C, DD, and Soy was purely humor. like most things that "cause cancer", the actual happening is likely due to an excess.


    Yes, great jiggly man boobs are always good for a few yocks.
  • Artesin

    Posts: 482

    Jan 20, 2008 1:18 AM GMT
    1) start thread
    2) call meat eaters bad things directly or clearly imply it
    3) [optional] post graphic pictures
    4) ...
    5) react immaturely to everyone who disagrees with you and blindly praise everyone who agrees
    6) wait a few days for the boiling pots to cool down then return to (1)


    -----------

    This was not my intention at all. I was simply ASKING why people seem to revere meat as a cornerstone in body building. I was not bashing anyones diets, I was not saying that if you eat meat you should play in traffic. I am asking for my own information so with MY vegetarian diet I can get everything I need from non meat sources and in turn mimic the effects of meat for bodybuilding. I am purely seeking information and that is all, no bashing or converting involved.

    Though this does raise concerns: Why is everyone getting so high strung when I am asking a simple question that isn't geared toward converting everyone to vegetarians? It's as if vegetarian is even mentioned in any threads here people seem to think your trying to convert them, it is outrageous.
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    Jan 20, 2008 1:29 AM GMT
    My dear dodger of death icon_smile.gif

    The 1-6 list isn't about you ;-)