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Jackal69 said(For my money, however, I swear it's the biggest ones saying "no fems" that are the quickest to kick up their heels and wanna take it balls deep.)

Does bottoming dictate feminine and top dictate masculine?

In the world of gay men obsessed with gender presentation, yes, the bottom is usually feminized.

Yes, based on the well-known female predilection for being fucked in the ass.

... wait!

I like sweet sensitive delicate fem boys as bottoms. They do make me feel more masculine cuz they admire my masculinity truly. Most men want masculine men cuz they feel insecure being seen with a girly man... plus they're really homophobic ladies that need cock!

Oh yeah, I remember that type back in New York...you go home with some menacing leather daddy after a night at the Ramrod and you get back to his place...you go into his bathroom for a second and it's ...

A SHRINE TO LIZA MINNELLI.

McGay saidWhat you just described is a national sport in France and it's always fun to partake. You don't think those people sitting outside all those cafes are just enjoying their cafe, do you? They are silently making, or whispering to a companion, some of the wittiest and biting criticisms of passerby that anyone might imagine.

And yet the French grow old less gracefully than any people I know. What is dat all about?

jprichva saidOh yeah, I remember that type back in New York...you go home with some menacing leather daddy after a night at the Ramrod and you get back to his place...you go into his bathroom for a second and it's ...

A SHRINE TO LIZA MINNELLI.

LOL! That happened to me. It was the Mineshaft, though, and the guy had THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS of opera records. He also had the smallest penis I've ever seen, which he warned me about beforehand, but I thought he was being coy and humble.

I scored level 2, and that's fairly accurate. I'm not flamingly queeny, but when I'm really enthusiastic about something, I have a certain animated exuberance that some people do pick up on as being pretty gay. As for femmy guys, I have no problem with them.

Onixotto saidI like sweet sensitive delicate fem boys as bottoms. They do make me feel more masculine cuz they admire my masculinity truly. Most men want masculine men cuz they feel insecure being seen with a girly man... plus they're really homophobic ladies that need cock!

I'd flail my hands wildly and even do the bend and snap to get your attention

You men discuss me! Be real! Get away from your pathetic online lives and see what real people tastes like. Ya'll damaged goods with limited minds. We homos come in all flavors. We don't need us to put us down too! Learn to accept what you don't like. Let those different to you at least feel accepted as friends.

Onixotto saidYou men discuss me!

We often seem to.

Onixotto saidYou men discuss me!

*bites tongue*

No, firfighter, the actions you just described are merely a blatant lack of respect for those around the perpetrator (a lack of manners, if you will). Those aren't necessarily "masculine" behaviors; rather, just rude. One can be masculine, for instance, without belching uncontrollably or shitting his pants at the dinner table.

The emphasis of masculinity in this society is overwhelmingly evident, so much so that it affects the way gay men treat each other, i.e. the very topic of this discussion. And I quote the great lady, Madonna, (peace and blessings be upon her), "it's ok for a girl to wear jeans, but for a boy to look like a girl is degrading." Case-in-point, many gay men, especially those that find themselves to be "butch" (lol), find it degrading and threatening to be around men who might threaten that image, an image that is socially condoned. I'm actually doing research right now specifically on the topic of internalized homophobia within the gay community. So far, what I've found doesn't surprise me. Most gay male participants' responses so far have indicated that they become increasingly defensive when their masculinity is questioned or doubted. It's kind of an ugly trend that does our community no good. It further justifies using stereotypes by the ruling outgroup to subject us to their own heteronormative standards. After all, if it's ok for the "butch" queers to bash the effeminate gay guy, it must surely be ok for the straight majority to do so, both on a personal level and a legal level. When does it end?

Onixotto saidYou men discuss me!

Awwwwww, you're pretty!

yo...I like the gays, fem to masc...what I do not like are th police officers in Ankara...they just mean to foriegners.

I like people who don't 'act' like anything and are just themselves.

Well here is what I think. I think that the reason so many guys here don't like them is because they are doing the same thing sometimes but the opposite. They were, me included, raised with the stereo type of really rediculous fem guys because its the stereotype. And the don't want to be treated the way they are so they act sometimes even more....um... butch i guess to counteract that stereotype because they dont want to be treated the way the fem gays are by other people. And actauly I think it is also a bit of jelousy because the fem guy doesn't care what anyone thinks about them and they are who they want to be and the butch guys are jelous and almost agnry at the fact that they don't have that confidence because they could never dress up in drag, not because they dont want to it might be because they are afraid what other people think of them.

And most guys who workout a lot do have self confidence issues to begin with so that justs adds on to it.


Thats what i think anyways but i could be wrong

So what you say to a 6 year old child that acts as a big queen? Stop it? Please! We are born how we are! I enjoy ma big fag girly friends.. .They creative and funny as hell. I fuck'm in the ass too!

Onixotto saidYou men discuss me!

I regret to inform you that I find it too difficult to discuss you when I'm so preoccupied thinking ... about you.

You still in the running to becoming Americas Next Top no one.

Onixotto saidYou still in the running to becoming Americas Next Top no one.

babayy im watching that right now =D

Cux you one of ma bitches TERRA!

bluecaddy17 saidNo, firfighter, the actions you just described are merely a blatant lack of respect for those around the perpetrator (a lack of manners, if you will). Those aren't necessarily "masculine" behaviors; rather, just rude. One can be masculine, for instance, without belching uncontrollably or shitting his pants at the dinner table.

I really should have used an entirely different example. I had no intent to relate to belching or anything as a masculine behavior.

I'll rephrase. A person does something in a given situation that I don't find appealing, find unacceptable or inappropriate in general, or for the situation. Does this mean I'm internalizing something or that I simply don't find it appealing, acceptable, or appropriate?

The emphasis of masculinity in this society is overwhelmingly evident, so much so that it affects the way gay men treat each other, i.e. the very topic of this discussion.

I don't disagree. But I don't agree that it's an absolute for every masculine person.

And I quote the great lady, Madonna, (peace and blessings be upon her), "it's ok for a girl to wear jeans, but for a boy to look like a girl is degrading."

I don't feel that for a boy to look like a girl is degrading. As far as I'm concerned anyone can dress however they want to. Just because I feel that a guy looks really good in Levis doesn't mean that I feel a guy wearing mascara is degrading.

Case-in-point, many gay men, especially those that find themselves to be "butch" (lol), find it degrading and threatening to be around men who might threaten that image, an image that is socially condoned.

I don't feel threatened by feminine men, I don't find being around "them" uncomfortable. Actually I have found several of them to be quite ... comfortable, but that's a kiss and tell thing. To be honest I feel a that such a continuing preponderance of this to be in itself an attempt to ensure the existing stigmas.

So far, what I've found doesn't surprise me. Most gay male participants' responses so far have indicated that they become increasingly defensive when their masculinity is questioned or doubted.

Defensive, or irritated if pressed? I tend to get annoyed as I've expressed above. I don't feel my masculinity threatened, but I feel the need to address what I perceive as an inaccurate or misleading statement. Sometimes I just get tired of the repetition and ignore it.

It's kind of an ugly trend that does our community no good.

Addressing the trend is fine but not everyone that feels feminite isn't appealing needs to be painted with effeminate insecurities and sent for retraining. Sometimes it's just as simple as just not being appealing.

That's the point I was trying to make.

RE: Firefighter

I don't feel that bottoming necessarily dictates "feminine" behavior or gender identification...however, for many gay men, penetration is associated with feminization which is why bottoms are assumed to look a certain way (soft, un-muscled, etc.) while tops look the opposite. Of course, once people get behind closed doors, you really see how far their fear of being "the woman" goes...which for many "straight-acting/masculine" men isn't far, imho. Gay men went way off the rails in copying heteronormative ideals of "masculinity" post-Stonewall, and it's still a major issue/problem. Cheers!

I understand that completely, firefighter. No one's attacking you or anyone else's preferences as to who you or anyone else wishes to date or hang out with. However, that has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. If someone, for example, does not date men of different a race, the reason could be simply that you don't find such features of a particular race appealing, or that individual has hidden racist tendencies. Either way, that is another topic entirely.

If you don't feel uncomfortable or otherwise defensive around effeminate men, hey, good for you. I wish more men would be like that because I sure get tired of men bashing other men who are gutsy enough to be themselves. The fact still stands, though, that this is a sociological issue that deserves attention.

The fact of the matter is that masculinity is so praised in our culture that it really IS more okay for a woman to act like a man than it is for a man to act like a woman. Girls are praised for being "courageous" enough to take shop class in high school, yet boys are socially demeaned if they attempt to take a home ec class. He's just "a fag." It all adds up to being manly and how much more respect you get as a person simply for "being a man" vs. "NOT being a man" (Notice I didn't say "being a woman.") Granted, exceptions rest in every case, but generally speaking, this is a norm of our society, a society that touts "the pursuit of happiness" as the declaration of this nation's purpose.