Clinton warns Netanyahu that U.S.-Israeli relationship is at risk

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    Mar 12, 2010 8:43 PM GMT
    "Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton warned Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu on Friday that the U.S.-Israeli relationship is at risk unless Israel took immediate steps to demonstrate it was interested in renewing efforts at a Middle East peace agreement.

    Clinton's phone call, made in the wake of the embarrassment suffered by Vice President Biden this week when Israel announced it would build 1,600 housing units in a disputed area of Jerusalem, was an unusually tough message for the longtime U.S. ally. It came two days after Biden condemned the action while in Israel, and demonstrated that Netanyahu's efforts to mollify the administration have fallen short. He has claimed that he did not know the announcement was coming but has not canceled the project.

    Relations with Israel have been strained during the Obama administration, and Biden's trip was intended as a fence-mending mission. Now it has led to the biggest crisis between the two countries in years.

    Clinton called the prime minister "to make clear the United States considered the announcement a deeply negative signal about Israel's approach to the bilateral relationship and counter to the spirit of the vice president's trip," State Department spokesman P.J. Crowley told reporters at his regular news briefing. Clinton, he said, reinforced "this action had undermined trust and confidence in the peace process and in America's interests." ... "


    Hear! Hear!

    I totally support Sec. of State Clinton leaning on Israel to knock off messing things up.
  • GQjock

    Posts: 11649

    Mar 12, 2010 9:34 PM GMT
    Over the last 2 years
    Certainly after Netanyahu had taken office Isreal
    has become blatantly wrong on many issues

    The Gaza War
    The constant beligerance against Palestinians esp in the West bank
    Check Points
    This last assassination of a Hamas Leader
    Building Isreali homes on disputed territories
    Esp this Last 1600 unit complex? And they said they didn't Realize that it was being done?
    Does Isreal really take us for such fools?
    Hooray for Clinton in my book
    Enough of this never say anything against Isreal
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    Mar 12, 2010 10:26 PM GMT
    Caslon you haven't had enough fun with that other thread you got going on the topic?
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    Mar 12, 2010 10:40 PM GMT
    wrerick saidCaslon you haven't had enough fun with that other thread you got going on the topic?

    Hey, I didnt make the news story up.

    But I did find it quite coincidental. Just what I was experiencing on that other thread is what Israel is really doing. I feel so vindicated. ... icon_wink.gif
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    Mar 12, 2010 11:02 PM GMT
    The problem is that Palestinians build homes all the time. In fact, a new Palestinian CITY was just proposed last week. So, if it is indeed disputed territory, either both sides have the right to build or neither of them. You can't tell one side they have no right to build homes for their citizens, while the other side is clearly expanding.

  • Mepark

    Posts: 806

    Mar 12, 2010 11:07 PM GMT
    GQjock saidOver the last 2 years
    Certainly after Netanyahu had taken office Isreal
    has become blatantly wrong on many issues

    The Gaza War
    The constant beligerance against Palestinians esp in the West bank
    Check Points
    This last assassination of a Hamas Leader
    Building Isreali homes on disputed territories
    Esp this Last 1600 unit complex? And they said they didn't Realize that it was being done?
    Does Isreal really take us for such fools?
    Hooray for Clinton in my book
    Enough of this never say anything against Isreal


    You can say whatever you want about Israel, but you don't have your facts straight.

    The Gaza war was before Netaynahu.
    Check points have eased in the West Bank under him. They too admit it.
    The assassination was well deserved. He earned it. You have no idea what he was seeking to do. Obama is a two faced liar on this, especially after declaring his support for a Jewish Jerusalem during the campaign. He can kiss his re-election goodbye if he continues his stance.

    I prefer we mind our business completely and leave the entire situation alone.
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    Mar 12, 2010 11:18 PM GMT
    "But after learning of the announcement, Biden kept Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu waiting 90 minutes before dinner as he and his aides mulled what to say in the statement. They ultimately opted to use the word "condemn," which is rarely used in diplomatic terms when criticizing the behavior of close allies.

    "I condemn the decision by the government of Israel to advance planning for new housing units in East Jerusalem," Biden said in a statement released during the meal. "The substance and timing of the announcement, particularly with the launching of proximity talks, is precisely the kind of step that undermines the trust we need right now and runs counter to the constructive discussions that I've had here in Israel."

    "We must build an atmosphere to support negotiations, not complicate them," Biden added, just hours after he had declared there was a "real opportunity" for talks to move forward. "


    Obviously, Israel doesnt want any constructive talks and they were willing to embarrass the Vice President of the United States in their frantic effort to shoot them down.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/09/AR2010030900497.html
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    Mar 12, 2010 11:33 PM GMT
    I think we as a country need to take a harder line with Israel and let it work its own problems out.

    Actually, I would prefer for us to withdraw from the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. If people object to that so much, then let the USA stop subsidizing Israel's defense budget. Congressional reports show that 18.5% of Israel's defense budget comes from US military aid. Not to mention all the financial assistance given to that country.

    I really don't understand why we are subsidizing Israel to the tune of $3 billion a year though financial and military aid when it could be better spent to improve the lives of Americans. Maybe I wouldn't feel this way if Israel was a little more appreciative of all that the USA had done for them and accept some compromises.
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    Mar 13, 2010 1:11 AM GMT
    Mepark said
    GQjock saidOver the last 2 years
    Certainly after Netanyahu had taken office Isreal
    has become blatantly wrong on many issues

    The Gaza War
    The constant beligerance against Palestinians esp in the West bank
    Check Points
    This last assassination of a Hamas Leader
    Building Isreali homes on disputed territories
    Esp this Last 1600 unit complex? And they said they didn't Realize that it was being done?
    Does Isreal really take us for such fools?
    Hooray for Clinton in my book
    Enough of this never say anything against Isreal


    You can say whatever you want about Israel, but you don't have your facts straight.

    The Gaza war was before Netaynahu.
    Check points have eased in the West Bank under him. They too admit it.
    The assassination was well deserved. He earned it. You have no idea what he was seeking to do. Obama is a two faced liar on this, especially after declaring his support for a Jewish Jerusalem during the campaign. He can kiss his re-election goodbye if he continues his stance.

    I prefer we mind our business completely and leave the entire situation alone.



    I tend to agree with you Mepark.
  • kaccioto

    Posts: 284

    Mar 13, 2010 1:35 AM GMT
    zukavi saidI really don't understand why we are subsidizing Israel to the tune of $3 billion a year though financial and military aid when it could be better spent to improve the lives of Americans.


    +1.. why am i paying for this with my taxes when i'd rather save for my next vacation home?

    amazes me you'd think the largest recipient of US foreign aid would be some poor third world country..
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    Mar 13, 2010 2:06 AM GMT
    kaccioto> why am i paying for this with my taxes when i'd rather save for my next vacation home?

    Per capita assistance to Israel amounts to about $8 per American (2009). That might buy you a martini while on vacation, not a vacation house.

    So we see that the argument is completely disingenuous. The exercise is anti-Israel, not financial.

    An honest inquiry would ask what the US gets in return. For one, a democracy in the middle east and a staunch ally (compare voting records in the UN General Assembly). During the Cold War, the benefits were much more tangible. Israel was the proving grounds of US weapons (tested with Israeli blood). The intelligence benefits (captured Soviet tanks and planes) was priceless.

    So again, if someone is selfish and has only their own wallet to consider, why would they so narrowly focus only on 0.07% of the budget?


    Zukavi> Congressional reports show that 18.5% of Israel's defense budget comes from US military aid.

    And? 80% of that military aid is spent in the US and goes right back into the US economy.


    Zukavi> Not to mention all the financial assistance given to that country.

    How much is the non-military financial assistance to Israel? $0.

    Sorry, but your arguments seem to also be based on emotion rather than logic.


    GQJock> This last assassination of a Hamas Leader

    Do you likewise oppose the US assassinations of top Al Qaida leaders?

    Note, as discussed in the topic on RJ, so far the 3 people arrested in relation to this assassination were... Palestinian Arabs.


    GQ Jock> Building Isreali homes on disputed territories

    SeaSon> You can't tell one side they have no right to build homes for their citizens [in disputed territories], while the other side is clearly expanding.

    Good point.


    SDH> It is occupied Palestinian territories.

    When and how did eastern Jerusalem become Palestinian Arab territory?!

    I know how it became so-called "Arab East Jerusalem". That was in 1948 when Trans-Jordan invaded and seized it, destroying 58 Jewish synagogues and ethnically cleansing this part of the city, including the ancient Jewish quarter, of all Jews.

    Hard to believe that some wish to make this ethnic purge permanent.


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    Mar 13, 2010 5:49 AM GMT
    Sigh. A new topic and SDH starts a new cycle of spam-propaganda lies for-the-cause, rehashing falsehoods that were refuted as recently as a day or two ago in another topic.

    SDH> It is occupied Palestinian territories.

    When and how did eastern Jerusalem become Palestinian Arab territory?!

    SDH> [no answer]


    I know how it became so-called "Arab East Jerusalem". That was in 1948 when Trans-Jordan invaded and seized it, destroying 58 Jewish synagogues and ethnically cleansing this part of the city, including the ancient Jewish quarter, of all Jews. Hard to believe that some wish to make this ethnic purge permanent.

    SDH> East Jerusalem is located in the West Bank (Palestinian territory.) It was Jordanian government that destroyed the Jewish synagogues, not Palestinians.

    FAIL.

    The "West Bank" does not include Jerusalem nor is it "Palestinian territory". This is as wrong as pretending that East Germany included West Berlin (though geographically it encompassed it).

    It is the "West Bank of Trans-Jordan" - as Jordan was then known. Trans-Jordan seized Judea and Samaria and annexed them as its so-called "West Bank".


    SDH> This is a map of Jerusalem

    Any idiot can draw a map and add a legend. That doesn't make it correct.

    The 1949 Armistice Line is commonly known as the "Green Line"; is your source uninformed or seeking to mislead by depicting it in orange? It is not the line between Israel and Arab Palestine but the temporary cease-fire line between Israel and Trans/Jordan.

    http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/arm03.asp
    || Jordanian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, April 3, 1949
    || The Armistice Demarcation Lines defined in articles V and VI of this Agreement are agreed upon by the Parties without prejudice to future territorial settlements or boundary lines or to claims of either Party relating thereto.
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    Mar 13, 2010 5:53 AM GMT
    Caesarea4 saidAny idiot can draw a map and add a legend.

    You can't


    That doesn't make it correct.

    Doesnt make it wrong either.
  • B71115

    Posts: 482

    Mar 13, 2010 5:56 AM GMT
    zukavi saidI think we as a country need to take a harder line with Israel and let it work its own problems out.

    Actually, I would prefer for us to withdraw from the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. If people object to that so much, then let the USA stop subsidizing Israel's defense budget. Congressional reports show that 18.5% of Israel's defense budget comes from US military aid. Not to mention all the financial assistance given to that country.

    I really don't understand why we are subsidizing Israel to the tune of $3 billion a year though financial and military aid when it could be better spent to improve the lives of Americans. Maybe I wouldn't feel this way if Israel was a little more appreciative of all that the USA had done for them and accept some compromises.


    If Israel embarrassed Biden, it was probably just to make him feel at home. He's embarrassed himself plenty of times.
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    Mar 13, 2010 6:00 AM GMT
    HRC has more balls than Obama
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    Mar 13, 2010 6:02 AM GMT
    Any idiot can draw a map and add a legend.

    Caslon> You can't

    Right. I'm not an idiot.


    That doesn't make it correct.

    Caslon> Doesnt make it wrong either.

    The map is wrong in that it hijacks the 1949 Armistice Line agreement betewen Israel and Trans-Jordan - which was a cease-fire line and explicitly not a permanent boundary - and misrepresents it as a permanent boundary between Israel and Arab Palestine (which furthermore was not a party to that agreement).

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    Mar 13, 2010 6:26 AM GMT
    Wow insulting will not make you any better than SDH. Propaganda? Like what? In your post nothing is propaganda?

    This is nothing new to me. Israel always land grab since the 1967. East Jerusalem as Israel's capital city is violation of the international law. It have been Palestinian city ever since 1967.

    What the hell is Tran-Jordan? There is a land called Palestinian territories (Gaza Strip and West Bank.) The West Bank is not Jordan and Jordan is no longer occupy the West Bank. Tran-Jordan under the British Mandate is now Jordan, not West Bank.
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    Mar 13, 2010 6:42 AM GMT
    KT/Beth/Luckycharm> In your post nothing is propaganda?

    If it were, you'd refute it. But look how miserably you fail on the few points you even attempt to challenge:


    KT/B> Israel always land grab since the 1967

    To the contrary, since 1967 Israel has been attempting to trade land for peace. It has withdrawn from more than 90% of the territories it acquired in a defensive war.


    KT/B> East Jerusalem as Israel's capital city is violation of the international law.

    What treaty is violated?
    Please cite the Article.


    KT/B> It have been Palestinian city ever since 1967.

    Wow. That's creative. So in 1967 Jordan attacks Israel and loses a war. Israel gains control of eastern Jerusalem... and that makes it a "Palestinian City"?

    Thanks for admitting that it wasn't a "Palestinian City" prior to 1967.


    KT/B> What is the hell is Tran-Jordan?

    Jordan was known as Trans-Jordan until 1950. So in 1948 and in 1949 (when it signed the Armistice Agreement), Jordan was still known as Trans-Jordan.


    KT/B> The West Bank is not Jordan

    The definition of the "West Bank" is the territory seized by Trans-Jordan in 1948.
    There was no such "West Bank" in history. It is a modern political construct which existed from 1948-1967.


    KT/B> Jordan is no longer occupy the West Bank.

    Jordan was never considered to "occupy" the "West Bank".
    I've previously explained why. Do you know why?


    KT/B> There is a land called Palestinian territories (Gaza Strip and West Bank.)

    There is an authority, and the only land it controls is what has been ceded to date by Israel - which is about 40% of Judea & Samaria (which nonetheless is where 98% of the Arabs reside).
  • ATLANTIS7

    Posts: 1213

    Mar 13, 2010 7:16 AM GMT
    Who Cares nothing will ever change!
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    Mar 13, 2010 8:14 AM GMT
    Things can change, no one could have predicted peace in the North of Ireland. Yes there is still a long way to go but power sharing is working.

    I think in order to help broker peace agreements other countries outside of the dispute need to stay neutral and not exploit the situation to meet their own needs. The Iran/Iraq war and many conflicts in Africa during the cold war are examples of this.

    In the N.I. situation the US was seen as a friend to both England and Ireland, and were in a position to assist when the peace talks stalled. In the Israel/Palestinian conflict, the US has been seen in the past to be a supporter of Israel thus affecting their role of peace-maker. There are wrongs on both sides but at some stage there will have to be meaningful talks.

    One of the most poignant poems to come out of the N.I. troubles and which sums up the needless waste of innocent lives is the one below. Says it all really...

    THE NORTHERN IRELAND QUESTION
    two wee girls
    were playing tig near a car
    how many counties would you say
    are worth their scattered fingers?

    (Desmond Egan 1936 - )

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    Mar 13, 2010 9:31 AM GMT
    C4> If it were, you'd refute it. But look how miserably you fail on the few points you even attempt to challenge:

    One thing... You refused to admit that Israel's occupation of Palestinian land is ILLEGAL.

    C4>To the contrary, since 1967 Israel has been attempting to trade land for peace. It has withdrawn from more than 90% of the territories it acquired in a defensive war.

    That is another words "Land Grab." So that Israel can have the rest of Jerusalem.


    C4>What treaty is violated?
    C4>Please cite the Article.

    It doesn't need an article, because the whole Israel's occupation of Palestinian land is illegal. Israel illegal annexed the territory of East Jerusalem and its Palestinian residents. The international community considers East Jerusalem occupied territory and building on occupied land is illegal under international law.

    C4>Wow. That's creative. So in 1967 Jordan attacks Israel and loses a war. Israel gains control of eastern Jerusalem... and that makes it a "Palestinian City"?
    C4>Thanks for admitting that it wasn't a "Palestinian City" prior to 1967.

    No, because there are many Palestinian residents in East Jerusalem and that make it a Palestinian city and it is inside the Palestinian territories (West Bank.) I was talking about when Israel occupied the West Bank in 1967. The whole Jerusalem before 1948 was Palestinian city.

    C4>Jordan was known as Trans-Jordan until 1950. So in 1948 and in 1949 (when it signed the Armistice Agreement), Jordan was still known as Trans-Jordan.

    Nobody use that term anymore. That country is now Jordan, not Trans-Jordan. Trans-Jordan is past and Jordan is present or now.


    C4>The definition of the "West Bank" is the territory seized by Trans-Jordan in 1948. There was no such "West Bank" in history. It is a modern political construct which existed from 1948-1967.

    That is because Jordan was in East Bank of the Jordan River. The West Bank is named because it was located on the West side of Jordan River. Yes it was occupied by Jordan, but it was owned and populated by Palestinians.


    C4>There is an authority, and the only land it controls is what has been ceded to date by Israel - which is about 40% of Judea & Samaria (which nonetheless is where 98% of the Arabs reside).

    You are talking about 1993 Oslo Accords... West Bank was divided into areas A, B and C. Area A falls under Palestinian control, Area B under joint Israeli and Palestinian control and Area C is controlled by the Israeli Civil Administration (ICA). There are hundreds of Palestinian villages and towns which falls within Area C. Still it is Occupied Palestinian territories.

    In 1988, Jordan give up the West Bank to the Palestine Liberation Organization, as "the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people." - Address to the Nation
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    Mar 13, 2010 9:41 AM GMT
    sxydrkhair said My grandpa used to own a shop somewhere in Mamilla (Jerusalem). The Israeli soldier put a huge X next to his shop. Israeli stole his shop and gave it to Jews.
    2lieq7d.jpg


    Yes I believe so. Your dad mention that to me before. If Israel didn't expropriation your grandpa store. You will own it in Jerusalem now.
  • GQjock

    Posts: 11649

    Mar 13, 2010 10:09 AM GMT
    Mepark said
    GQjock saidOver the last 2 years
    Certainly after Netanyahu had taken office Isreal
    has become blatantly wrong on many issues

    The Gaza War
    The constant beligerance against Palestinians esp in the West bank
    Check Points
    This last assassination of a Hamas Leader
    Building Isreali homes on disputed territories
    Esp this Last 1600 unit complex? And they said they didn't Realize that it was being done?
    Does Isreal really take us for such fools?
    Hooray for Clinton in my book
    Enough of this never say anything against Isreal


    You can say whatever you want about Israel, but you don't have your facts straight.

    The Gaza war was before Netaynahu.
    Check points have eased in the West Bank under him. They too admit it.
    The assassination was well deserved. He earned it. You have no idea what he was seeking to do. Obama is a two faced liar on this, especially after declaring his support for a Jewish Jerusalem during the campaign. He can kiss his re-election goodbye if he continues his stance.

    I prefer we mind our business completely and leave the entire situation alone.


    Netanyahu is merely another symptom of what I see is a change in Isreal
    I know he isn't the direct cause of what I cited
    but he is certainly not the person to combat it
    Isreal and maybe it's because of it's constant state of paranoia has become the perpetrator of abuses in this region
    which is only going to fuel more and more hatred
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    Mar 13, 2010 12:02 PM GMT
    Caesarea4 saidkaccioto> why am i paying for this with my taxes when i'd rather save for my next vacation home?

    Per capita assistance to Israel amounts to about $8 per American (2009). That might buy you a martini while on vacation, not a vacation house.

    So we see that the argument is completely disingenuous. The exercise is anti-Israel, not financial.

    An honest inquiry would ask what the US gets in return. For one, a democracy in the middle east and a staunch ally (compare voting records in the UN General Assembly). During the Cold War, the benefits were much more tangible. Israel was the proving grounds of US weapons (tested with Israeli blood). The intelligence benefits (captured Soviet tanks and planes) was priceless.

    So again, if someone is selfish and has only their own wallet to consider, why would they so narrowly focus only on 0.07% of the budget?


    Zukavi> Congressional reports show that 18.5% of Israel's defense budget comes from US military aid.

    And? 80% of that military aid is spent in the US and goes right back into the US economy.


    Zukavi> Not to mention all the financial assistance given to that country.

    How much is the non-military financial assistance to Israel? $0.

    Sorry, but your arguments seem to also be based on emotion rather than logic.




    Wow are you wrong on your perspective.
    It's not the fact that it's a "martini" per person in the USA. It's more the fact that Israeli's receive 500 dollar per capita from USA in direct and indirect governmental subsidy. I don't consider that fair or necessary, based on logic (Israel is neither devastatingly poor nor sick). Also, some of the figures you present are total shams - just because the production of military equipment is done in US does not mean it's going back to the US economy. It just means supporting the military complex and the Bush-Cheney cronyism. Also, Israel is now the world's 8th largest military supplier because US grants it to spend up to 26% of the military aid in its own country's military industry. We can't get job creation done at home but apparently we have no problem putting an industry on life support overseas.

    And think about how it's only recent that US is phasing out direct financial aid to Israel. For a very long time, large portions of the pie were pure cash. Not to mention I thought Israel was rather ungrateful when it requested assistance be deposited in Euro several years ago when the value of dollar was declining.

    Maybe it is part emotion and part logic - but does that matter? At the end of the day, shouldn't I feel that it's important that our government is focusing on the right matters?

    caesarea4, I really don't appreciate your nervous attitude to attack someone just because they may not agree with the Israel government all the time. I've noticed it before in other forums and figured as much but it's wholly unnecessary.
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    Mar 13, 2010 2:37 PM GMT
    zukavi> It's not the fact that it's a "martini" per person in the USA. It's more the fact that Israeli's receive 500 dollar per capita

    Talk about a warped perspective, you make it sound as if individual Israelis receive a check from the US. They don't.


    Z> just because the production of military equipment is done in US does not mean it's going back to the US economy.

    Where then is it going? To Mars?


    Z> We can't get job creation done at home....

    Another ridiculous argument. As if $2.5 billion out of a nearly $3 Trillion budget has any impact on job creation within the US. Sorry, no matter how you attempt to warp it, this is a miniscule amount - 80% of which is spent in the US, anyhow. If your project was finding money for job creation, you'd be looking in the other 99.93% of the US budget.

    You're not, making it clear that your project is to deprive Israel of assistance due to your own political agenda.


    Z> only recent that US is phasing out direct financial aid to Israel

    It has already been phased out, contrary to your lie above that this is in addition to the military aid figure that was discussed.


    Z> Maybe it is part emotion and part logic

    You still lack a logical component in your argument.


    An honest inquiry would ask what the US gets in return. For one, a democracy in the middle east and a staunch ally (compare voting records in the UN General Assembly). During the Cold War, the benefits were even more tangible. Israel was the proving grounds of US weapons (tested with Israeli blood). The intelligence benefits (captured Soviet tanks and planes) was priceless.

    Z> [still fails to consider the benefits, only whining about a relatively miniscule cost.]


    Z> attack someone just because they may not agree with the Israel government all the time

    That's the first personal attack in our conversation - by you.
    I have attacked your arguments.
    If you can't defend or support them... perhaps you need to reconsider the matter and challenge your obvious biases.