NERD ALERT! Lockheed Martin F35 and F22

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    Mar 24, 2010 8:03 AM GMT
    So awesome!

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    Mar 24, 2010 1:57 PM GMT
    As if we needed more proof that Area 51 really does house an alien space craft...

    IT'S A UFO! KILL IT WITH FIRE!

    (not that that wasn't amazingly cool!)
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    Mar 24, 2010 2:10 PM GMT
    I have to find the video of the guy who restores and sells Sukhovs. I know they aren't in the same technological universe, but climbing through 10K in 1minute nearly vertically is awesome anyway.

    This is amazing video. So what is that thing above the cockpit? It looks like some sort of an air-scoop but I cannot see how it wouldn't just break off in flight.
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    Mar 24, 2010 2:32 PM GMT
    UrsaMajor saidI have to find the video of the guy who restores and sells Sukhovs. I know they aren't in the same technological universe, but climbing through 10K in 1minute nearly vertically is awesome anyway.

    This is amazing video. So what is that thing above the cockpit? It looks like some sort of an air-scoop but I cannot see how it wouldn't just break off in flight.


    I was wondering the same thing about that flap. Here's a closer look at it:

    f35_7.jpg

    But it appears in other photos to only be up during takeoff and landing (the wheels are always down when the flap is up):

    f35_2.jpg
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    Mar 24, 2010 2:35 PM GMT
    Looks like it's the air intake for hovering and vertical landing/takeoff.
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    Mar 24, 2010 6:24 PM GMT
    That's bad ass!
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    Mar 24, 2010 9:20 PM GMT
    Ooo ooo ooo.... who can we use it on first??????

  • EricLA

    Posts: 3461

    Mar 24, 2010 9:28 PM GMT
    Coolness.
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    Mar 25, 2010 6:55 AM GMT
    I forgot to mention, for those folks who didn't see it, that Nova did an awesome program called "The Battle of the - Planes" that showed the development of both Lockheed and Boeing's entries for the JSF contract. Of course, Lockheed won, but this show was really interesting -- and dramatic!



    As to Terry's question, I have no idea what that thing is. The air intake doors for the lift fan are smaller and open to the side -- you can seem them in the video as well -- see the diagram below:

    800px-F-35B_Joint_Strike_Fighter_%28thru

    Any Marine pilots out there, or Lockheed engineers that can hazard a guess? It looks like something that might be in place just for testing?
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    Mar 25, 2010 8:00 AM GMT
    Cool!

    I think I saw it on an X-men episode once.

    It was really cool back then. Now it really exists!
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    Mar 25, 2010 8:30 AM GMT
    sexylatinboi saidCool!

    I think I saw it on an X-men episode once.

    It was really cool back then. Now it really exists!


    Hell yeah! So much of our technology comes from what sci-fi dreamed up first, it's kind of hard to believe. Take the flip phone, for instance. Or Apple touchscreens. Next Gen's interfaces were all mutitouch and labeled with icons, too.

    That weird scoop is probably involved with some system that we're not supposed to know about. Either making it work or hiding its true function... whatever that is. Maybe it helps to force more air into the front fan so that it can actually generate enough lift.
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    Mar 25, 2010 8:54 AM GMT
    As impressive as that is........ hasn't the harrier been doing just that since the late 1960's.
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    Mar 25, 2010 9:19 AM GMT
    dashdashdash saidAs impressive as that is........ hasn't the harrier been doing just that since the late 1960's.


    It definitely has. However, the Harrier can't go supersonic, isn't all that maneuverable, has a huge radar signature, and has a crash rate 4 times higher than other fighters. And the Harrier is much more unstable in hover than the F-35 -- it wobbles like a nervous bride on her wedding night.

    So it was a great plane in its time for the Marines and the Brits, but really needs to be replaced, just like the workhorses of the Navy (F-18 ) and Air force (F-16), which are similarly aged, all designed for the cold war era, all 30+ years old.

    The first 15 minutes of the Nova episode describes all this in detail.

    But we still don't know what that weird scoop-like thing is behind the pilot. I don't buy the lift fan air intake door theory -- those doors are clearly visible and open behind the scoop thingy. Calling all RJ aerogeeks! Mystery to be solved!
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    Mar 25, 2010 10:24 AM GMT
    iguanaSF said
    dashdashdash saidAs impressive as that is........ hasn't the harrier been doing just that since the late 1960's.


    It definitely has. However, the Harrier can't go supersonic, isn't all that maneuverable, has a huge radar signature, and has a crash rate 4 times higher than other fighters. And the Harrier is much more unstable in hover than the F-35 -- it wobbles like a nervous bride on her wedding night.

    Exactly. VTOL (Vertical Take Off and Landing) technology hasn't really seen its hey-day quite yet. Nothing has been overly effective while still being efficient. That F35 literally looks like it's just floating in the air though, which is awesome.
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    Mar 25, 2010 12:47 PM GMT
    @Iggy

    Thanks for posting that Nova episode. I just finished watching that, and found it enormously inspiring.

    I did feel a little bit sorry for the Boeing team given their huge commitment to innovation. Certainly all of the tech they developed is going to go into some pretty interesting applications. It is worth remembering that we actually have the 747 because Boeing lost a competition to build what became the C-5.

    In nearly two hours of video there is no clue about what that surface might actually be. In fact, it is place in a very weird place considering that it is directly in front of the lift fan. It looks like it would have to fold back over the lift fan when closed. Otherwise, it would fold down over the cockpit. It must be something used only during the testing program.
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    Mar 25, 2010 5:32 PM GMT
    UrsaMajor saidThanks for posting that Nova episode. I just finished watching that, and found it enormously inspiring.


    Terry, you are my Nerd Hero.

    * Stabs self multiple times for continual failure to set up a Skype call. Renews determination to schedule said call. *

    It was amazingly inspiring. The esprit de corps of both teams was great to see -- the risky underdogs versus the cocky hot shots, with both teams humbled at multiple stages by setbacks that shook their confidence. And a very close finish at the end, only perhaps decided by a flamboyant move by Lockheed with a test flight that highlighted the limitations of the Boeing prototype. Of course, that was the narrative of the Nova show. Real life may have been a little different. But still. I admit, I've watched it 3 times now icon_smile.gif

    But I won't rest until I know what that weird thing is behind the canopy.

    Later tater,

    K
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    Mar 25, 2010 5:54 PM GMT
    O - to the M - to the G!!
    How CUTE are you?!!?

    Talk tech to me!
    ;)
    xo
  • mustangd

    Posts: 434

    Mar 25, 2010 5:57 PM GMT
    the harriers' failing was that it had too small of a powerplant, and didn''t direct the airflow during hover and transition to and from hover as efficiently as the F-35. those were the points addressed in the F-35 design. the flap you see uncovers a large fan, a view from the top shows this, the flap both uncovers the fan, and acts as a ram air spoiler, it is used in low speed manuevering and in transition to and from hover, as well as during hover. another neat piece of technology, not seen in this video, is the jet exhaust nozzle. in normal flight it is horizontal, but during hover and transition, doors open and the nozzle articulates through nearly 90 degrees pointing down, one very large appendage icon_smile.gif
    with the articulating/thrust directing exhaust system, and the forward fan/flap, the F-35 gains much stability and opens its flight envelope for maneuvering. the only question would be how much battle damage it can sustain. still, seeing it jump into the air, from an exhaust nozzle pointed straight down, and full thrust applied, is an impressive sight to see. one day this capapbility will exist for more aircraft designs, long landing strips will become a thing of the past, as already stated, a case of life imitating sci-fi.
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    Mar 25, 2010 7:06 PM GMT
    Thanks Mustang. More reading up on the current design (versus the X version) show's you're correct!

    The "mysterious" scoop is indeed a design change from the prototype X-35 (which only had the smaller dorsal doors for the lift fan intake) to the F-35 (which uses a "flip-up lid" above the lift fan, but keeps the smaller dorsal doors aft for intake air for the engine). This arrangement helps shove more air downward into the fan at low speed, as you point out, and the dorsal engine intake doors also prevent hot air from being ingested into the engine during hover.

    Here's some pictures:

    f35side.jpg

    f35top.jpg

    And even better pictures in a PDF article, which clearly shows the lift fan sitting under the "flip top" door:
    http://www.vtol.org/vertiflite/f35.pdf

    Here's a recent article on the F-35B variant STVOL testing, with some interesting details on the engine redesign caused by failures during testing.

    [url]http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_generic.jsp?channel=defense&id=news/F35B030309.xml&headline=F-35B%20Ready%20to%20Begin%20Stovl%20Testing[/url]

    (Sorry for the lack of a hyperlink. You'll have to copy out yourself. Something in that URL is making the RJ URL button function misbehave.)
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    Mar 25, 2010 7:07 PM GMT
    EasilyDistracted saidO - to the M - to the G!!
    How CUTE are you?!!?

    Talk tech to me!
    ;)
    xo


    I see your "cute" and raise you one, Mr. Sparkles icon_smile.gif

    icon_smile.gif
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    Mar 27, 2010 7:58 PM GMT
    OK, for the few nerds still following this thread, a little tangent:

    A recent, and super neato, video of another Lockheed beauty, the hyper expensive F-22 ($138M each!) at the Chile air show!



    Edit: increased the $100M price tag to the latest info. At last estimate, the marginal cost of one more F-22 was $138M. Eeek!
  • QHCAguy

    Posts: 138

    Mar 27, 2010 8:32 PM GMT
    Beyond the fact that the shaft driven lift fan is really a power multiplier of the single engine core, the most significant change from the harrier is the automatic flight controls in the F-35. The harrier depended on the monkey up front to keep it balanced in a hover. On a hot breezy day that can start to get iffy. With the F-35 the pilot can go hands free and the vehicle will remain stable. That's a huge change in pilot workload and makes the airplane a lot safer.

    Oops...my geek is showing icon_smile.gif
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    Mar 27, 2010 11:11 PM GMT
    QHCAguy saidOops...my geek is showing icon_smile.gif


    Own it. It's hot!

    icon_smile.gif
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    Mar 27, 2010 11:13 PM GMT
    And yet more endless F-35 geekage!

    Here's a vid of a talk by one of the Skunworks engineers on the F-35 design!

    http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/2010/03/video-history-of-the-f-35-by-s.html

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    Mar 27, 2010 11:26 PM GMT
    How come they can get this to work but the Osprey's performance remains questionable?