Vegetarians and testosterone levels

  • Artesin

    Posts: 482

    Mar 25, 2010 12:57 AM GMT
    Hey there guys. While googling one night I found a study that explains how eatting various types of meat inadvertently raises testosterone levels. Now being a vegetarian I don't get this added benefit but I figured it may be the missing link in my workout regime. Being 19 and 5'11 with a fast metabolism it had been a struggle just to reach 165 lbs, and that's sitting with "around" 10% bodyfat.

    I've long since been unable to find these studies so I come to you guys to find out if the increase is marginal or if it is a make or breaker in a routine. Would it be worth taking testosterone supplements to offset the loss incurred by a vegetarian diet or should my age be enough of a deterrence?

    I also heard of supplement derived from the Yohimbe plant, a personal trainer I saw two months ago, swore by the stuff when he competed at body building championships. Apparently it is a natural source of testosterone and (for him) appeared to add an extra 14 lbs on that year according to the notes and records he kept. The downside is that it's quite costly at $30 for a small 45 capsule bottle. More than a three month supply of high grade liquid aminos.
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    Mar 25, 2010 10:48 PM GMT
    Hey

    Its all math. Crunch the numbers
    calories in = calories burned--> No change in weight
    calories in > calories burned --> weight gain
    the latter muscle vs fat is dependent on strength training
    and protein vs simple carbs and and not weight training.

    figure out your daily calorie expenditure I guess for you
    2400 baseline + 800 gym = 3200

    Eat 5-6 meals with protein at each meal (whey, egg whites, soy,
    fish ) alll vegetarian, each about 800 cals and you'll gain weight

    wish I had that issue
    Ahh youth
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    Mar 25, 2010 10:54 PM GMT
    Vegetables have no calories and protein, simple as....more likley a deficit of either or both rather than test

    You need to eat some charred animal flesh
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    Mar 25, 2010 11:04 PM GMT
    Nuts are supposedly better than meat for increasing testosterone levels.
  • calibro

    Posts: 8888

    Mar 25, 2010 11:05 PM GMT
    i'm a vegetarian and i suffer from hypogonadism (unrelated to being a vegetarian). you can get your testosterone levels checked to see if they're, but more like than not you're ok and you simply aren't eating enough food. i am at 185 and that's because i ingest 200 grams of protein a day, nothing to do with how many vegetables i eat.
  • metta

    Posts: 39165

    Mar 25, 2010 11:13 PM GMT
    MsclDrew saidVegetables have no calories and protein, simple as....more likley a deficit of either or both rather than test

    You need to eat some charred animal flesh


    Not true at all. Try and tell that to the vegan bodybuilders.

    Look up lentils, beans, nuts, legumes, soy, whey, peas, etc.

    http://www.veganbodybuilding.com/

    Scooby is a vegetarian

    http://www.youtube.com/user/scooby1961

    http://scoobysworkshop.com




    I eat a lot of greek yogurt and Kefir.

    Here is a thread on Vegan Protein Powder: http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/802148
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    Mar 25, 2010 11:17 PM GMT
    I suggest reading The thrive Diet by Brendan Brazier. It's a vegan nutrition guide for athletic performance, but it will certainly help you develop a meal plan and vary your protein sources instead of relying solely on fatty animal ones (whey, eggs, etc).

    Also, look into eating more nuts (as previously mentioned) they're an awesome source of protein, healthy fat and fibre. Hemp is also great, it's a vegetarian/vegan protein source that has a complete amino acid profile.

    Also.....don't tell a vegetarian to eat fish.....and don't tell anyone that vegetables don't have protein. Everything has protein. Vegetables and fruits do not contain a lot (one cup of raw kale has 2g, for instance) but they do have it or they wouldn't exist.
  • calibro

    Posts: 8888

    Mar 25, 2010 11:21 PM GMT
    BronzeChew saidNuts are supposedly better than meat for increasing testosterone levels.


    yes, but i think the OP was talking about food, not where he could find testosterone ;-)
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    Mar 25, 2010 11:22 PM GMT
    Bartron saidI suggest reading The thrive Diet by Brendan Brazier. It's a vegan nutrition guide for athletic performance, but it will certainly help you develop a meal plan and vary your protein sources instead of relying solely on fatty animal ones (whey, eggs, etc).

    Also, look into eating more nuts (as previously mentioned) they're an awesome source of protein, healthy fat and fibre. Hemp is also great, it's a vegetarian/vegan protein source that has a complete amino acid profile.

    Also.....don't tell a vegetarian to eat fish.....and don't tell anyone that vegetables don't have protein. Everything has protein. Vegetables and fruits do not contain a lot (one cup of raw kale has 2g, for instance) but they do have it or they wouldn't exist.


    So.....you're going to eat 80 cups of kale a day to get 1g per lb of body weight icon_rolleyes.gif
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    Mar 25, 2010 11:40 PM GMT
    MsclDrew saidSo.....you're going to eat 80 cups of kale a day to get 1g per lb of body weight icon_rolleyes.gif


    Dude, with all due respect....don't be a dick.

    I don't rely on vegetables and fruits for protein.

    I'll consume a cup of hemp seeds (88g) or a cup of soaked lentils (56g)
    or a cup of soaked chickpeas (39g) etc. instead. I was just pointing out something that you said that I found false, I wasn't proposing vegetables as a reliable source of protein.
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    Mar 25, 2010 11:44 PM GMT
    calibro said
    BronzeChew saidNuts are supposedly better than meat for increasing testosterone levels.


    yes, but i think the OP was talking about food, not where he could find testosterone ;-)


    But nuts are... oh. I see what you did there. ಠ_ಠ

    Meat would probably help me get the gains I'm looking for. But fuck that...
  • metta

    Posts: 39165

    Mar 26, 2010 12:05 AM GMT
    ^
    Meat is not necessary.
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    Mar 26, 2010 1:08 AM GMT
    metta8 said^
    Meat is not necessary.


    Not necessary but I think it would be easier.
  • Artesin

    Posts: 482

    Mar 26, 2010 11:02 PM GMT
    Well my original question wasn't related to calories in or calories burned. It was directed simply towards the matter of testosterone levels and if they can be adversely affected by different diets and if that effect was marginal or huge. It's all in regards to a study I found that meat does directly increase testosterone and HGH levels, it isn't synonymous in meaning that I don't know how to design a diet or get over 150 grams of protein a day in a diet. Quite frankly protein is the easiest thing to get a hold of within a vegetarian diet, even excluding soy as a proprietary source.

    This wasn't a thread directed at nutrition really, just a small piece of it and how it may relate to the larger puzzle. I really don't appreciate my lifestyle choice being knocked and deemed obsolete, as anything is possible. Thanks to guys who actually know otherwise.
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    Mar 27, 2010 5:47 AM GMT
    if meat increased testosterone noticeably wouldn't we be surrounded by large frame bearded women ?
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    Mar 27, 2010 5:53 AM GMT
    xassantex saidif meat increased testosterone noticeably wouldn't we be surrounded by large frame bearded women ?


    Have you been to Walmart lately?
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    Mar 27, 2010 5:58 AM GMT
    Steroids, whatever kind they are....are soluble in lipids / fats. While being obese LOWERS anabolic steroids, it RAISES catabolic steroids. As with most things, there is a range that is good.

    Man was meant to eat meat....run fast, kill the prey, and eat it.... rather than agriculture...which came much later.
  • calibro

    Posts: 8888

    Mar 27, 2010 6:22 AM GMT
    chuckystud saidSteroids, whatever kind they are....are soluble in lipids / fats. While being obese LOWERS anabolic steroids, it RAISES catabolic steroids. As with most things, there is a range that is good.

    Man was meant to eat meat....run fast, kill the prey, and eat it.... rather than agriculture...which came much later.


    actually, predecessors to human were vegetarians that then also became insectivores and finally complete omnivores; meat in the human diet is a relatively new thing considering the evolution of man
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    Mar 27, 2010 7:31 PM GMT
    i have to say since i went vegetarian almost a year ago ( i was almost so before , but still eating chicken once a week ) i've been feeling much better.
    But i may not have to do with just giving up meat (which would be simplistic )but also with using better food combination .
    I lowered coffee intake, sugar intake , eat several small meals , become much more aware of protein sources and getting enough fiber is a no brainer.

    The transition made me lose about 2 kilos at the beginning.

    i still eat dairy and eggs .( not a vegan ).
    and i take tribulus .

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    Mar 27, 2010 10:07 PM GMT
    calibro said
    chuckystud saidSteroids, whatever kind they are....are soluble in lipids / fats. While being obese LOWERS anabolic steroids, it RAISES catabolic steroids. As with most things, there is a range that is good.

    Man was meant to eat meat....run fast, kill the prey, and eat it.... rather than agriculture...which came much later.


    actually, predecessors to human were vegetarians that then also became insectivores and finally complete omnivores; meat in the human diet is a relatively new thing considering the evolution of man


    But, humans had a brain, and needed protein, so, we're both kinda' right here....
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    Mar 27, 2010 10:08 PM GMT
    turbobilly said
    xassantex saidif meat increased testosterone noticeably wouldn't we be surrounded by large frame bearded women ?


    Have you been to Walmart lately?


    Here in Texas, Walmart on Main Street in Lewisville looks like a scene from Wall-E, with fat carts everywhere. It's pathetic.
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    Mar 27, 2010 10:32 PM GMT
    chuckystud saidBut, humans had a brain, and needed protein, so, we're both kinda' right here....

    I don't think he meant we didn't need protein. I believe his example were stated to display that we didn't necessarily need protein from a animal source.
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    Mar 27, 2010 11:07 PM GMT
    I don't understand something. If you suspect that eating meat may make achieving your fitness goals more attainable, why not just introduce meat into your diet? I've wanted to know for some time now but for what reason do you ardently abstain from eating meat? I really don't care whether a person is either but I've always wondered why vegetarians stay vegetarians even when it becomes difficult to do so.

    Here's a study on the meat/testosterone deal:
    http://www.4-men.org/nutrition.html...evidence suggests that eating meat boosts testosterone levels. In one study, two groups of men pumped iron for 12 weeks; one group ate a vegetarian diet and the other a meat diet. Strength improved by the same amount in both groups, but only the meat eating group enjoyed marked fat loss and muscle gain. If you decide to eat meat to bulk up, avoid fatty red meat, pork and lamb which are loaded with saturated fat and instead choose fish, poultry or lean cuts of beef.


    And...:

    http://www.raise-your-testosterone.com/testosterone-food.htmlA Canadian study comparing sex hormones in vegetarian and omnivorous groups introduced one possible reason for the effect of eating meat on testosterone levels (4). While this particular study found similar total levels of testosterone in the blood between vegetarian and control groups, the vegetarian group had higher levels of a sex-hormone binding protein in the blood. As a result, less free testosterone was available for use in vegetarian subjects.

    Red meat, as you always suspected, is the true testosterone food.

    The bottom line: adequate meat and fat intake are critical for testosterone production. The testosterone food plan is a balanced diet with good fats and carbs, minus simple sugars and processed foods.


    And lastly...:
    http://www.fitnessforoneandall.com/nutrition/article/hormones/part_two.htmSo the consumption of meat raises T levels while a vegetarian diet lowers T levels. Another issue in regards to vegetarians could be that soy is often included as a source of protein on a vegetarian diet. But research shows that soy can lower T levels (Di Pasquale, p.44; see also my article Soy: Health Food or Food to Avoid?).

    However, even the inclusion of dairy and eggs would not correct the problem. "Dutch research shows that athletes had higher testosterone levels when eating meat-based protein, compared with other sources, such as dairy and eggs" (Thorton, p.155). So even an ovo-lacto-vegetarian diet would not be good for T levels.

    And this shows that it is not the fat and cholesterol in meat that raises T levels as these are found in dairy and eggs. It has something to do with meat itself. And it should be noted that "meat" is usually used in a general sense to refer to red meat, poultry, and fish. So it is not necessary to consume a diet high in saturated fat and cholesterol. A diet rich in healthy fats and lean meats would provide the T raising effects just as well as one high fatty meats and thus high in saturated fat and cholesterol.



    That's all I could find on the subject. Whatever you decide is up to you, good luck achieving your goals.
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    Mar 28, 2010 4:09 AM GMT
    http://www.fitnessforoneandall.com/nutrition/article/hormones/part_two.htm
    Moreover, it is not just any fat, but saturated fatty acids (SFA) and monounsaturated fatty acids (MUFA) that raise T levels. Polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFA) do not.
    As such, "… restricting total fat intake ­and replacing saturated fat with polyunsaturated fat (exactly what the experts are telling you to do) would appear to be the perfect prescription for lowering your testosterone levels! (Faigin, p.330; emphases in original).

    However, it is not necessary to consume a lot of saturated fat. A response to a letter on asking about how to raise T levels on Bodybuliding.com reported about a study that showed, "Men with the highest testosterone levels ate nuts! Yes, monounsaturated fat seems to increase testosterone levels, so include nuts, olive oil, canola oil, and peanut butter!"

    Moreover, foods high in healthy Omega 3s fatty acids would also be good sources of T-raising fat. The best sources of omega 3s are fatty fish like mackerel, herrings, sardines, tuna, sturgeon, and salmon. But they are also found in plant foods like walnuts, pumpkin seeds, flax seeds, flax seed oil, and canola oil (Collins).


    so, vegetarian sources will supply the monounsaturated fats which are linked to T levels.


    all this is very interesting. I am vegetarian, but i must admit to "cheating" to the veg credo , as i 'll have fish once every two weeks.
    and when i eat out, because vegetarian dishes in restaurants are shitty most of the time.

    i will need to find out more before i make further changes to my diet, but if it came obvious that a vegetarian diet is detrimental to "male" health, i will simply increase fish intake.
    But i'm pretty sure there are vegetarian bodybuilders. Do they have to take injections ?
  • Artesin

    Posts: 482

    Mar 29, 2010 6:07 AM GMT
    Dragoonxi saidI don't understand something. If you suspect that eating meat may make achieving your fitness goals more attainable, why not just introduce meat into your diet? I've wanted to know for some time now but for what reason do you ardently abstain from eating meat? I really don't care whether a person is either but I've always wondered why vegetarians stay vegetarians even when it becomes difficult to do so.




    It's an issue of morality more than anything. I hate the idea of shoving rotting flesh into my body. Really I have the image in my mind of grave robbers stealing bodies to partake in cannibalism. It's just such a polarizing effect to think of the atrocities of slaughter houses and their terrible ways of harvesting meat and societies reluctance to reveal how it's obtained to the general public. most just think it appears out of the sky, however now I'm just on a tangent that is unrelated tot he subject. Not to mention the fact that I feel fucking amazing, I'm never tired, I never drink caffeine aside from herbal teas and sickness has become a myth that get's me out of work. To stay a vegetarian isn't hard, I can cook up a weeks worth of high protein, amino rich meals in an hour, the idea was just interesting as I have not met any built vegetarians recently. Though Virginia isn't really the ideal place to meet people with the same thought process.