March by Palestinian Christians Trying to Walk into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday, filmed by the father of an RJ member

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    Apr 03, 2010 8:27 PM GMT

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    Apr 03, 2010 10:13 PM GMT
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    Apr 03, 2010 10:41 PM GMT
    After watching Caslon's video twice before posting this, I did notice, especially in the beginning, many Palestinian flags that were carried by the procession. It looked to me much more of an attempt to reclaim territory rather than a pilgrimmage.
    I can't say whether to Israeli police carried out the blocking in the proper way or not, but they did warn the pilgrims, if that were what they were, to return to the checkpoint without a fuss. The fact that twelve Palestinians were arrested after returning to the West Bank seem to indicate some disturbance which the video did not show.
    A true Christian pilgrim would have obeyed the Israeli authorities without resistance, as the Bible instructs in Romans chapter 13. If there was something sanctimonious or holy about praying in Jerusalem, then this was lost when they fought the police to push their way in.
    It does not matter to God where one prays. What God looks at is the heart,and one who wishes to please God would have returned to the West Bank cheerfully.
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    Apr 03, 2010 11:55 PM GMT
    sxydrkhair said

    luckycharm dad's video is located in Bethlehem (West Bank). (luckycharm) Ian's dad already mention in the video "Israeli violation of the international right of free movement and worship." And he wrote: "They managed to enter Jerusalem through the checkpoint for the tourist buses and cars. When the police stopped them already in Jerusalem, they turned back and returned peacefully to Bethlehem." If you were there... They will arrest you for walking and no other reasons.

    Here is a better video by someone else.


    Watching your video carefully, the chanting of Palestine liberation, long live (viva) Palestine and Jerusalem is Palestine, seem to uphold the idea that this was a political demonstration guised as a religious pilgrimmage. Watching a young boy crying and several women lying on the road as they put up a resistance and to appear as victims were a ploy to make the viewer feel sorry for them, the same ploy the BBC uses in their newscasts to favour the Palestinians.
    Now I'm against colonialism. For centuries the British were imperialistic bullies who conquered a quarter of the globe. I'm not in favour of nationalism either, and come to that, when I was in Israel myself, I was treated well by the Palestinians, who owned a backpackers hostel in the Old City of Jerusalem. So I have nothing personal against the Palestinians.
    But as one who studiy the Bible, which is central to both Judaism and Christianity, Jerusalem was given by God to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (whose remains are in the Tomb of the Patriarchs in Hebron) to be the capital city of Israel, which was conquered by King David, his son Solomon built the Temple there as the center for prayer for all the nations - a fact which Jesus Christ himself endorsed, to whom these Palestinian Christians claim as their Lord, as well as the authenticity of the Bible itself.
    I agree with you that these videos reveal a very sorrowful situation, so well symbolised by the enormous metal wall and gate marking the Israeli/Palestinian border. Perhaps the Israeli police were rather harsh - I cannot say that they were free from blame. But maybe if this marching group had at first approached the Israeli officals with a request with the specific reason to pray in Jerusalem as part of their pilgrimmage, the outcome might have been very different.
    Just like the March for Jesus which took place in London for a few years in the early to mid 1990s. These marches were organised with the Metropolitan Police months before the march took place.
  • gaydocalex

    Posts: 80

    Apr 04, 2010 5:40 AM GMT
    What is the big deal? The demonstrators went through a check point to prove a point. They chanted about their rights to Palestine and Jerusalem. There was nothing religious about this demonstration. They were turned away rather simply without too much violence. Israel never knows who is coming through from the West Bank since they have had so much terrorism from the Arabs there. They are right to be cautious. It was remarkable actually how much respect the Israeli police gave to these agitators. The demonstrators knew they would never be let in .. so what exactly did the Israelis do wrong here? What a piece of disgustingArab propaganda!
  • trl_

    Posts: 994

    Apr 04, 2010 5:50 AM GMT
    This demonstration didn't look religious at all. There were kaffieyat and Palestinian flags. I was expecting to see palm branches and crosses..... icon_confused.gif
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    Apr 04, 2010 7:31 AM GMT
    How tolerant would Vatican security be of a similarly peaceful political demonstration by any group of marchers that threatened to disrupt Easter services?
  • fitartistsf

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    Apr 04, 2010 8:00 AM GMT
    What...ever...
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    Apr 04, 2010 9:01 AM GMT
    These protestors didn't return peacefully to Bethlehem. They had to be instructed by a police official to return and then they started throwing themselves onto the road. So the inevitable result is a scuffle.

    Some people shouted to the police "shame on you". For what? Doing their job? Using force because they have several times asked you to leave? What part of this doesn't make sense?

    And in terms of security it is a massive issue for the Israelis to let such a huge group just enter Jerusalem. Who says they are all Christians?

    Plenty of permits were handed out to Palestinians to go through to Jerusalem for worship, Christian Palestinians. it is not like they were all barred. You may not like it, and believe me I'm also not always for these means but because of what happened in the past you just cannot risk it.

    Unfortunately the Christian Palestinians have their Muslim counterparts (who smuggle explosives into Israel) to thank for what happ
    ened there.
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    Apr 04, 2010 9:14 AM GMT
    Caslon14000 saidbanksy21.jpg


    Well, if she were from the Northern Caucasus I would have checked her too.

    I don't like this image by the way. It's derogatory. But that's my opinion and the picture is your opinion and I respect it, but it doesn't mean I have to like it.
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    Apr 04, 2010 4:14 PM GMT
    SDH> this is not propaganda. This is a real video was filmed by my good friend's father and a member of Realjock.

    The sad thing is that Samer truly believes this.
    As if any video I (or my father) make or post couldn't possibly be "propaganda" by virtue of who filmed or posted it.

    That this comes from someone who was caught vandalizing a Wikipedia entry to make it "more fair" (by taking out key facts that were inconvenient and thus supported lies posted both by SDH ant KT/Beth/luckycharm) comes as no surprise. The mind boggles how SDH would edit the article about the health effects of smoking to make it "more fair" to tobacco companies.


    SDH/Spammer> That banner ring a bell?

    The "banner" is just another soundbite/slogan propaganda fest.
    Despite quoting an irrelevant part of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
    As usual, shedding more heat than light.

    > Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

    Israel is not their country, as you make painfully obvious almost daily.

    They are PA citizens (before which they were - and still are?) Jordanian citizens. They do not have a right to enter Israel. Paperwork is required, and was legally obtained by those interested in religious worship rather than creating a propaganda scene. They have a right to return to the PA and were instructed to do so by Israeli police.


    This is the 2nd bogus attempt by SDH to establish the non-existent so-called "right of return". Previously he claimed so because of one clause - in a peace proposal (UNGAR 194) rejected by the Arab parties - that mentioned "return" (along with "resettlement" options). Rather than solve the Arab refugee (and descendents) problem, Arab propagandists have - for decades - attempted to pull this legal shenanigan (a line-item UNveto) to mislead those not familiar with international law.

    The Geneva Conventions Relating to the Status of Refugees rejects the existence of a "right of return" and calls (Article 34) for countries to grant refugees citizenship in their new country. Descendents, born in the new country, should obviously be citizens in the country in which they (and now their parents and grandparents) were born.

    Note that there were scores of millions of refugees in the 1940s. In Europe, in the near east, in India/Pakistan, and in the far east. None of them had a "right of return". All were resettled elsewhere. None are living in refugee camps 60+ years later... except these Arabs previously from Mandate Palestine.

    If SDH, KT/Beth/LC and his dad were truly interested in the welfare of the "refugees" (most of whom are descendants and not actually refugees, not to mention that those who reside in their own country aren't technically "refugees", either), they should call on the Arab governments (not Israel) who put them in these camps 62 years ago to provide them the rights guaranteed to all other refugee populations: the right to education, work, relocation and citizenship.

    For how many more generations will they force these people to suffer in the hopes that one day they can be used as a demographic army by which to over-run Israel?

    It is sickening that these faux humanitarians and their tools parade around banners quoting irrelevant slogans from the UDHR while they ignore, exacerbate and prolong (forever?) the plight of their own brethren.

    The refugee problem needn't wait to be resolved until the Arab-Israeli conflict has been solved. Those who aren't more interested in blaming Israel (if they didn't hate the Jews more than they loved their brethren...) should call on the Arab governments to immediately extend to the Palestinian Arab refugees the rights granted to all other refugees. The right to education, work, relocation and citizenship in their country of residence.

    Don't you agree, SDH, or do you prefer to see these people continue to suffer for generation after generation?



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    Apr 04, 2010 4:22 PM GMT
    Weren't the Crusades started because pilgrims weren't allowed into Jerusalem?

    My how far we've come.
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    Apr 04, 2010 4:37 PM GMT
    Makavelli> Weren't the Crusades started because pilgrims weren't allowed into Jerusalem?
    My how far we've come

    Makavelli, don't be fooled by the propaganda presented in this topic.
    As was already pointed out:

    InXcelces> Plenty of permits were handed out to Palestinians to go through to Jerusalem for worship

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100404/wl_mideast_afp/mideasteasterjerusalem
    JERUSALEM (AFP) – Thousands of Christian pilgrims streamed into Jerusalem's cavernous Church of the Holy Sepulchre to celebrate Easter Sunday at the traditional site of Jesus's crucifixion and burial.

    ...In previous years Israeli police have had to rush into the church to break up fist fights between rival monks over alleged attempts to alter a delicate status quo hammered out over centuries, but this year calm prevailed.

    ...Police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld estimated on Sunday that 15,000 pilgrims had passed through the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in the space of just 24 hours.

    ...the military said it issued more than 10,000 permits allowing Palestinian Christians to enter for up to two weeks. Another 500 Christians from the Hamas-ruled Gaza Strip, about a quarter of the territory's tiny non-Muslim minority, were also granted permits to travel to Israel and the West Bank.

    I'm guessing those 500 were actually one-way tickets and that soon the estimate of the number of Christians left in Hamas-ruled Gaza will drop from about 2,000 to about 1,500. No wonder given that shops owned by Christians in Gaza have been burned and they're not even allowed to ring their church bells (they play tape recordings of bells ringing).
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    Apr 04, 2010 5:12 PM GMT
    Yes that is quite bad, and especially the businesses of Christian Palestinians suffered tremendously after the 2nd intifada. We spoke to a family who own their own shop in Bethlehem last time we were there and they were really struggling.

    Thank you Caesarea for again emphasizing the fact that there were permits handed out to Palestinians. Some people in here argued with me about that from my original post. Anyhhooooo!!!!
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    Apr 04, 2010 8:00 PM GMT
    NotThatOld said
    A true Christian pilgrim would have obeyed the Israeli authorities without resistance, as the Bible instructs in Romans chapter 13.


    That was Hitlers favourite passage of the Bible to quote, because it is manipulated to instill docile and mindless servitude towards authority.

    The fact that you quoted it as a reason to "obey" is both disturbing, and an indication of your intellectual idiocy.

    Any half-wit knows that blind faith and allegiance to a source of authority is just about the worst thing one can do. All the greatest injustices and crimes against humanity have been committed in the name of "allegiance", "following orders," and "servitude".

    You, sir, need to re-think your world view.
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    Apr 04, 2010 8:11 PM GMT
    SDH> Christians in Gaza celebrate Easter.

    Strange, but your few pictures are all inside the church.
    Was no outside celebration allowed?
    Were they allowed to even ring the Church bells?


    SDH> Only 10,000...?

    The usual pattern of lies. First claiming no one was allowed in, then asking why more than 10,000 weren't allowed in.

    Note also that AFP reported MORE than 10,000.
    Perhaps that is all that applied?


    SDH> how come they don't allow Christians enter Jerusalem on Palm Sunday?

    A new lie, so soon?


    SDH> Palestinian Christians make more than 10,000

    And there are more than 1 bilion Christians world-wide.
    Perhaps Israel should be faulted for not allowing all of them?


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    Apr 04, 2010 8:47 PM GMT
    sxydrkhair saidWhy you have to lie Caesarea4? How do know Christians aren't allowed to ring the Church bells? You are there? I know this because I have relatives that explain to me what going on over there.


    Which inevitably means that you are not there either... so how can you single out Caesarea4 for not being there?... meaning your relatives only tell you their side of the story...icon_lol.gificon_lol.gificon_lol.gif Grrrr....!
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    Apr 04, 2010 10:21 PM GMT
    MeOhMy said
    NotThatOld said
    A true Christian pilgrim would have obeyed the Israeli authorities without resistance, as the Bible instructs in Romans chapter 13.


    That was Hitlers favourite passage of the Bible to quote, because it is manipulated to instill docile and mindless servitude towards authority.

    The fact that you quoted it as a reason to "obey" is both disturbing, and an indication of your intellectual idiocy.

    Any half-wit knows that blind faith and allegiance to a source of authority is just about the worst thing one can do. All the greatest injustices and crimes against humanity have been committed in the name of "allegiance", "following orders," and "servitude".

    You, sir, need to re-think your world view.


    Intellectual idiocy? Maybe so, maybe not. But I have used Romans 13 in its proper sense, Christian obedience to federal law. In fact, they are the same laws that govern your own country. Here are some examples:
    Showing proper motoring manners, driving on the right side of the road, staying within the speed limit set, stopping at red lights etc. Not to shoplift, burgle, paying your taxes when due, and so on. Breaching these and other like laws would result in a Court hearing and a penalty for the offence imposed, whether it would be a fine or a jail term. The same applies with border controls. Does one need a visa before entering another country? Then get one, else you won't be let in. If organising a march, does it require permission first? Get the right paperwork done.
    It may be true that corrupt dictators abuse their powers to instill absolute obedience, not because it's lawful, but because mass refusal of submission would result in the dictator failing to control power, and face the risk of being toppled.
    Romans 13 was written to the church in Rome as instructions for Christians to be blameless and without fault to a watching world where killing of believers was a frequent pastime. In other words, obey the federal laws, honour the Emperor, pay your taxes and respect all men, so if you are standing in trial, it is for nothing more than for being a Christian, innocent of any crime.
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    Apr 06, 2010 8:03 PM GMT
    Thanks Caslon for posting this video for me... I couldn't able to post it myself. I was so busy few days ago. Yes SDH, I am very proud of my dad. I was there, but not with him. My dad was afraid if I get beaten or get arrested... lol

    It was a peaceful protest and many were holding the palm leaves and some crosses, then they hold the banners and flags afterward. This is nothing new. Every year on palm Sunday, we have to march down to Jerusalem and arguing with the Israeli soldiers that we have right to worship there.

    Another video of Palestinian Christians protests in 2005. So pretty much Israeli government won't allowed Palestinians enter Jerusalem of their holy sites.
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    Apr 06, 2010 8:05 PM GMT
    InXcelsis said
    sxydrkhair saidWhy you have to lie Caesarea4? How do know Christians aren't allowed to ring the Church bells? You are there? I know this because I have relatives that explain to me what going on over there.


    Which inevitably means that you are not there either... so how can you single out Caesarea4 for not being there?... meaning your relatives only tell you their side of the story...icon_lol.gificon_lol.gificon_lol.gif Grrrr....!


    Nope, SDH was right. You don't know shit. Sorry kiddo.
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    Apr 06, 2010 10:48 PM GMT
    Once again we see how the usual suspects will blatantly LIE in their failed attempts to score political points:

    KT/Beth/LC> Israeli government won't allowed Palestinians enter Jerusalem of their holy sites.

    Except we've already seen from the French Press Agency:

    AFP> [Israel] issued more than 10,000 permits allowing Palestinian Christians to enter
    AFP> Another 500 Christians from the Hamas-ruled Gaza Strip, about a quarter of the territory's tiny non-Muslim minority, were also granted permits to travel to Israel and the West Bank.


    KT/Beth/LC> Every year on palm Sunday, we have to march down to Jerusalem and arguing with the Israeli soldiers that we have right to worship there.

    If your interest was to worship (rather than attempting to make a political propaganda stink), why don't you just apply for a permit like more than 10,500 of your neighbors did?

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    Apr 06, 2010 11:09 PM GMT
    NotThatOld saidAfter watching Caslon's video twice before posting this, I did notice, especially in the beginning, many Palestinian flags that were carried by the procession. It looked to me much more of an attempt to reclaim territory rather than a pilgrimmage.
    I can't say whether to Israeli police carried out the blocking in the proper way or not, but they did warn the pilgrims, if that were what they were, to return to the checkpoint without a fuss. The fact that twelve Palestinians were arrested after returning to the West Bank seem to indicate some disturbance which the video did not show.
    A true Christian pilgrim would have obeyed the Israeli authorities without resistance, as the Bible instructs in Romans chapter 13. If there was something sanctimonious or holy about praying in Jerusalem, then this was lost when they fought the police to push their way in.
    It does not matter to God where one prays. What God looks at is the heart,and one who wishes to please God would have returned to the West Bank cheerfully.

    Lol,
    Funny.... will a true Christian obey the Israeli authorities if they ask of him to denounce Christianity, abandon the holy Christian pilgrimage, and to take out all the references of Jerusalem from the bible?
    The history of Jerusalem and Christianity are intertwined. Israel come to terms with history.
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    Apr 07, 2010 12:32 AM GMT
    The charade continues:

    SDH> Only 10,000...?

    The usual pattern of lies. First claiming no one was allowed in, then asking why more than 10,000 weren't allowed in.

    Note also that AFP reported MORE than 10,000.
    Perhaps that is all that applied?


    SDH> 10,000 is not even enough and two weeks is not good enough

    Do you have evidence that more than 10,000 applied?

    Why isn't 2 weeks good enough to enter for religious reasons to pray during 1 holy week?


    SDH> 5,000 Palestinian Christians in the Gaza Strip

    AFP just put that number at 2,000.
    Has more than half the Christian population of Gaza fled since the violent Hamas coup?
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    Apr 07, 2010 12:37 AM GMT
    sxydrkhair saidIan should be proud of his dad. My relatives in Ramallah can't travel to Jerusalem. Many Christians are very upset because they can't go to Jerusalem.



    she did not just say occupation. Hello, Its Israel not Palestine.. like it or not, that's the reality and it's here to stay! with that said, I really feel for the Christians. Religious practices should be upheld with the utmost respect... Come on! Didn't the Persian empire teach some of my fellow Jews anything?
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    Apr 07, 2010 5:33 AM GMT
    SDH, Israel is only a "Jewish Democracy." It owns both the West Bank and Gaza, which if it owns those territories, and it does not give Palestinians citizenship then it is a theocracy. It does have few Israeli Arabs on the Knesset, but there is something like 9 out of 100 which is less than 5% of the positions in the government.

    People in the West Bank pay taxes to Israel, the Israeli government runs the life of the people there, and if the Palestinians want to do anything there, they have to get permission from the Israeli government.

    Due to the blockade around Gaza, the International Law states that now Israel is responsible for whatever happens to the Gazans.