Thirteen year old Yemeni bride dies of genital battering.

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    Apr 09, 2010 2:33 PM GMT
    Yeah, yeah, it's a cultural thing and we should tolerate it, even if this young girl couldn't.


    "Tribal custom also plays a role, including the belief that a young bride can be shaped into an obedient wife, bear more children and be kept away from temptation."
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    Apr 09, 2010 3:05 PM GMT
    Allah be praised!

    icon_rolleyes.gif
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    Apr 09, 2010 3:07 PM GMT
    This is merely one of many reasons that religion should not have the "sacred cow" status free from criticism that it currently enjoys.
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    Apr 09, 2010 3:08 PM GMT
    and the apologists and defenders will be here in 3 2 1 ...
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    Apr 09, 2010 3:35 PM GMT
    You mean comments like these?

    Tritimium> we really have no right to comment on what is a completely different culture to ours.

    JayDT> It's easy for people to say that one countries customs and culture are archaic or masogenistic or whatever, but at the end of the day that's their culture.

    Thaer> Every country has its own culture and tradition which make the country unique

    Until recently, almost all countries had a "culture" to beat up homosexuals.
    Most still do.


    http://www.economist.com/world/middle-east/displaystory.cfm?story_id=15774358
    The sight of hundreds of women cheering a proposed law banning child marriage, as they did on March 22nd in the YEMENi capital, Sana’a, was hardly amazing. No country has escaped the global trend towards greater equality between the sexes, not even one as poor and tradition-bound as Yemen, where half of girls are married off before the age of 18 and many even before the age of 10. Yet the day before that demonstration even more women (pictured right), nearly all wearing full face veils, gathered at the same spot to denounce the law as an imposition of unIslamic, Western values.

    That's the one of the deepest problems, even the victims are socialized to it.
    (Or maybe they just have to be "more Catholic than the Pope" to avoid getting beaten even more?)

    There is a difference between accepting someone who is not like you (diversity) and rejecting evil.
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    Apr 09, 2010 3:43 PM GMT
    Caesarea4 saidYou mean comments like these?

    Tritimium> we really have no right to comment on what is a completely different culture to ours.

    JayDT> It's easy for people to say that one countries customs and culture are archaic or masogenistic or whatever, but at the end of the day that's their culture.

    Thaer> Every country has its own culture and tradition which make the country unique

    Until recently, almost all countries had a "culture" to beat up homosexuals.
    Most still do.

    Those were comments regarding public displays of affection where it's neither the time nor place as ordained by cultural standards, not regarding pedophilia, genital mutilation or hate crime. Why paint people with one thick brush stroke like that?


    Anyway, I was raised by Muslims with Muslims around Muslims. I'm not surprised by this story, and though I've been aware of these practices, I somehow still manage to surprise myself everyday by how much more my hatred towards them grows day by day.
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    Apr 09, 2010 3:49 PM GMT
    tryandbuy> Those were comments regarding public displays of affection, not pedophilia, genital mutilation or hate crime.

    Those comments were stated as principles which were applied to a public display of affection.
    I don't see why they wouldn't apply here, too.
    But I'd understand where pragmatism would enter the picture in this case.
    Still, such pragmatism is a liability to the stated principle.
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    Apr 09, 2010 4:01 PM GMT
    Caesarea4 saidtryandbuy> Those were comments regarding public displays of affection, not pedophilia, genital mutilation or hate crime.

    Those comments were stated as principles which were applied to a public display of affection.
    I don't see why they wouldn't apply here, too.
    But I'd understand where pragmatism would enter the picture in this case.
    Still, such pragmatism is a liability to the stated principle.



    I don't see why they would apply, you said this yourself:

    Caesarea4 saidThere is a difference between accepting someone who is not like you (diversity) and rejecting evil.


    I wouldn't categorize policies against public displays of affection as a form of evil, we were reprimanded in my American public high school for it, heck there was a thread recently about gay men living in San Francisco and elsewhere who did not participate in it. We are polarized here in the US regarding PDA, places outside the US will be as well.

    Pedophilia, genital mutilation and hate crimes are certifiably forms of evil however and should be rejected both from within and from the outside of the Muslim world, which will soon be the biggest religious population on earth. Again I don't know those people you quoted or if they would personally consider their comments applicable to pedophilia, genital mutilation or hate crime, but I'd rather give them the benefit of the doubt icon_redface.gif
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    Apr 09, 2010 4:41 PM GMT
    If religion were like any other organization, things like this would do them in.
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    Apr 09, 2010 4:46 PM GMT
    Very sad story... won't pass any judgement beyond that.
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    Apr 09, 2010 5:47 PM GMT
    tryandbuy> I don't see why they would apply, you said this yourself....

    But that's what I said, not what they said.


    tryandbuy> We are polarized here in the US regarding PDA, places outside the US will be as well.

    But a month in jail for a PDA?
    (Then there's the ST:TNG where Wesley steps on the grass/flowers and is sentenced to death.)


    tryandbuy> I'd rather give them the benefit of the doubt

    That is certainly fair, perhaps the 2nd time around they will better state their opinions, perhaps put limits or otherwise expand on the principles they previously declared.

    Guess I was just trying to catalyze that. (:
  • twostroke

    Posts: 184

    Apr 09, 2010 6:12 PM GMT
    From my point of view it all boils down to lack of education. I bet that most of the victims are of a poor educational environment. Few of the more educated stratus suffer these atrocities.

    I even would say that same applies to many "western" countries. Just think of xenophobia, homophobia, racicism, gender inequality (also un Europe and the US) and the general quick-solution of blaming others.

    We hear less frequently of such acts (genital whatever) in our socienties but we´re not free from it either. And what we take for granted took a long time to achieve AND ALWAYS IN DANGER OF REGRESSING.

    So: promote education and be vigilant that we don´t start walking backwards.

  • twostroke

    Posts: 184

    Apr 09, 2010 6:16 PM GMT
    And what about this example:

    In my environment most baby-girls get their ear lobes pierced so that parents can "decorate" them with ear rings.

    It drives me mad. Where´s the consent here???
  • JayDT

    Posts: 390

    Apr 09, 2010 6:19 PM GMT
    @Caesarea4, you're a f*cking idiot. Of course I do not condone terror, acts of violence, pedophelia, murder, rape, abuse. Respecting the laws of another country to a point where I do not break them and do not show a blantant disregard as a foreigner for another countries laws and customs when in that country, yes. But to support torture, killing, rape, incest, pedophelia, terrorism, mutilation; no I do not support any of that at all.
  • Thaer

    Posts: 82

    Apr 09, 2010 6:26 PM GMT
    tryandbuy> Those were comments regarding public displays of affection, not pedophilia, genital mutilation or hate crime.

    Those comments were stated as principles which were applied to a public display of affection.
    I don't see why they wouldn't apply here, too.
    But I'd understand where pragmatism would enter the picture in this case.
    Still, such pragmatism is a liability to the stated principle

    No these comments were not stated as principles , they were stated in certain case which was on public affection … so it is not applied here.
    In general, in the middle east we consider this as child prostitution as mesyar marriage as prostitution as well … and that poor families put it under the name marriage so that they don’t feel ashamed about it … but basically they are selling their daughters ….. If you want to know. One of the most important rule of an Islamic marriage is Taqafw ( equivalence) ,, which states that they bride and groom have to be from the same age or close to each other. Does everybody follows the rules .. of course not a lot of poor families try to neglect this rule to overcome their poverty … like a lot of poor families try to sell their kids for child prostitution.

    Child abuse.. pedophilia .. child marriage .. it’s all the same thing .. And believe it or not in the middle east we believe that as well …… there nothing about culture or tradition here.
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    Apr 09, 2010 8:06 PM GMT
    It's difficult to have an intelligent discussion with people who not only don't understand the difference between principle and pragmatism (or worse, are hypocrites who apply principles only "in certain case[s]") but will knowingly tell blatant untruths.

    JayDT 1> It's easy for people to say that one countries customs and culture are archaic or masogenistic or whatever, but at the end of the day that's their culture.

    JayDT 2> Respecting the laws of another country to a point where I do not break them and do not show a blantant disregard as a foreigner for another countries laws and customs when in that country, yes

    The first is a statement of principle which emphatically states that "at the end of the day that's their culture." It says nothing about what the poster himself would or wouldn't do.

    The second statement suddenly invents a line ("to a point"), with no well defined formula for determining where it goes. As if 30 days jail time for a public display of affection isn't beyond that point.


    Thaer> One of the most important rule of an Islamic marriage is Taqafw ( equivalence) ,, which states that they bride and groom have to be from the same age or close to each other.

    Oddly enough when I google "Taqafw marriage" I get 0 hits.
    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Taqafw+marriage

    If such a thing even exists, it must post-date Muhammad - who at age 51 married Aisha, a 9 year old girl!


    Thaer attempts to then dismiss this as an exception to the "rule", but we've already see from the article in the Economist (quoted above):

    || poor and tradition-bound as Yemen, where half of girls are married off before the age of 18 and many even before the age of 10.


    Thaer> there nothing about culture or tradition here.

    The Economist:
    || The sight of hundreds of women cheering a proposed law banning child marriage, as they did on March 22nd in the YEMENi capital, Sana’a, was hardly amazing. ...Yet the day before that demonstration even more women, nearly all wearing full face veils, gathered at the same spot to denounce the law as an imposition of unIslamic, Western values.

    As I said:
    That's the one of the deepest problems, even the victims are socialized to it.
    (Or maybe they just have to be "more Catholic than the Pope" to avoid getting beaten even more?)
  • Thaer

    Posts: 82

    Apr 09, 2010 9:16 PM GMT
    1st Taqafw is just a franco-arab language we use it here in the middle east .. sothat people who can’t read Arabic can pronance the Arabic word with English letters .. that’s why you didn’t find anything anyway … the transatution of the rule is stated below ( keep in mind that this is Google translation .. sometiomes the sentence might feel difficult to understand .)

    Efficiency: is equality, similar to say: So and so competent person, ie, similar to him in many of the qualities and intended to marry that the spouses are equal or close together in their levels of religious, scientific, moral, social and age, for they are whenever there is a convergence of characteristics of mental, social and other between the couple's life was closer to their marital success and the good understanding and familiarity to the time and harmony.

    Is efficiency is significant?

    The public believes scholars that efficiency in marriage is mandatory, saying, the married women have the right to object to this marriage if it’s not equal, and they have to raise it to the judiciary to annul this marriage, Competence permission is considerable in custom in Islam, one of the things that can not be overlooked which helps to ensure the success of marriage, stability and happiness of the spouses.

    The breach of convergence between the spouses in terms of religious, social, scientific and other things as breaking the marital life and glory.

    This meaning is practice of people from ancient times to this they were choosing a partner or a partner in life among the many present, the choice the same directory account of the fittest and most appropriate for a married life the correct meaning, but were not saying it can sexual intercourse without a check in the box, but communication sex alone is not everything in the marital life, and there are other purposes of marriage, those goals require the search for a partner, is equivalent to the two parties can cooperate in the establishment of these life goals.

    In assessing the efficiency must take into account the different environments and conditions and times.


    The Arabic definition and the translation is listed below.

    http://translate.google.com/translate_t#






  • Thaer

    Posts: 82

    Apr 09, 2010 9:23 PM GMT
    Thaer attempts to then dismiss this as an exception to the "rule", but we've already see from the article in the Economist (quoted above):

    || poor and tradition-bound as Yemen, where half of girls are married off before the age of 18 and many even before the age of 10.


    I didn’t say that this incidence is exception of the rule . I said that not everybody follows the rule regardless to the religion ,, mostly because they are poor and uneducated …. And about the economist
    The article stated More than a quarter of Yemen's females marry before age 15, actually this still legal in several countries even Canada and Mexico… check the list below ( but I’m not defending anything ) but for you to use a study as an argument it need to have an accurate number because maybe only 10% of the quarter is only below the legal age and may be only 0.5% ( although this doesn’t justify the child marriage, but it just answer the question of how prevalence it is) anyway I say that Yemen is one of the most poorest country in the middle east with a with 40% unemployment as of 2007, and an average 6 kids for a family with 46% of the population being under 15 year.


    marriage age :

    Austria: 18, 16 with court consent (partner must be 18 or older).
    Belgium: 18, 16 with parental consent.
    Bulgaria: 18, 16 with parental consent.
    Croatia: 18, 16 with parental consent.
    Czech republic: 18, 16 with court consent.

    Estonia: 18, 15 with parental or court consent.
    Israel: 18 for males and 17 for females
    Canada: Varies by province, but generally 18 years old, 16 years with parental consent, 14 years with judicial consent.
    Mexico: 18, 16 with parental or legal consent, 14 for pregnant females with legal consent
    Colombia: 18, 14 with parental consent.
    Paraguay: 14 for females and 16 for males”.
    Peru: 18.
    Venezuela: 18, 14 for females and 16 for males with parental consent

    If this thread and comments was about child prostitution or child marriage or whatever you call it .. In general .. It will be okay .. However you are trying to convince us that this problem is only in the Middle East … it’s a problem in every country … check this statistics:

    ((In 2001, Dr. Richard Estes and Dr. Neil Alan Weiner estimated that in the U.S., 162,000 U.S. homeless youth are child prostitutes (CVE) and that 57,800 children in homes (including public housing) are estimated to be victims of CVE. They also estimated that 30% of shelter youth and 70% of homeless youth are victims of CVE in the United States.[23] One third of street-level prostitutes in the U.S. are under 18 years old while fifty percent of off-street prostitutes are less than 18 years old.[23] Off-street prostitution includes massage parlors, strip clubs, and escort services.))
    ((In Ukraine, research has shown that between 30 and 40 percent of prostitutes are between 11 and 18 years.))
    chick the countries with highest child prostitution rate … there is no middle eastern countries by the way…. Are these countreis also part of Tribal custom of Yemen… or it’s just about money … in poor country or rich ones.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_of_children

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    Apr 09, 2010 10:15 PM GMT
    twostroke saidAnd what about this example:

    In my environment most baby-girls get their ear lobes pierced so that parents can "decorate" them with ear rings.

    It drives me mad. Where´s the consent here???


    Where's the consent for circumcision?
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    Apr 10, 2010 4:31 AM GMT
    When I google "Taqafw marriage" I get 0 hits.

    Thaer> Taqafw is just a franco-arab language we use it here in the middle east .. sothat people who can’t read Arabic can pronance the Arabic word with English letters .. that’s why you didn’t find anything anyway

    There are many words which have been translated from Arabic (e.g. Sharia, Shahid) and which Google will find by the millions. Yet even just Googling for "Taqafw" finds only 9 hits, and none of them relevant?

    And you want us to believe that this is "One of the most important rule[s]" of Islam - yet not a single English language web page mentions it?


    If such a thing even exists, it must post-date Muhammad - who at age 51 married Aisha, a 9 year old girl!

    Thaer> ?


    Thaer attempts to then dismiss this as an exception to the "rule"

    Thaer> I said that not everybody follows the rule

    Then it was a straw man argument, because no one claimed that everybody follows the rule.


    Thaer spends the rest of his post attempting to confuse the issue, comparing to marriage laws elsewhere which allow 16 year olds to marry, in some cases even 14 year olds (with court/judicial consent, espcially as an allowance if a girl is already pregnant).

    But let's review what the Economist article said:

    || many even before the age of 10.


    Then Thaer twists things further by comparing them to underage prostitution - a doubly illegal practice. But let's go back to the Economist article:

    || The sight of hundreds of women cheering a proposed law banning child marriage, as they did on March 22nd in the YEMENi capital, Sana’a, was hardly amazing. ...Yet the day before that demonstration even more women, nearly all wearing full face veils, gathered at the same spot to denounce the law as an imposition of unIslamic, Western values.

    Let's assume for a minute that child prostitution were legal in the countries Thaer mentions. Can anyone imaging people protesting against a law to ban that, let alone that there would be more women/mothers against the law than for it?

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    Apr 10, 2010 5:06 AM GMT
    . . . how old were Abraham's concubines? . . .

    . . . and didn't Jerry Lee Lewis marry his 13 year old cousin . . .

    . . . the heteros are an odd lot, and the defenders of the faiths even odder . . .