Apple's New iPhone App Policy: Unreasonable and Unjustifiable

  • swimbikerun

    Posts: 2835

    Apr 10, 2010 4:12 PM GMT
    http://www.pcworld.com/article/193916/apples_new_iphone_app_policy_unreasonable_and_unjustifiable.html

    "It's so hard to reconcile my love for these beautiful devices on my desk with my hatred for the ugly words in that legal agreement."

    I agree. I understand why Apple made the decision not to allow developers to write programs for the iPhone in anything other than (primarily) Objective-C. They probably have every right though it might be hard to enforce.

    http://blogs.adobe.com/conversations/2010/04/cs5_countdown_is_on.html
    If Apple wants to be the odd man out, the industry might leave them behind as the mobile market develops. Hmmm....
  • swimbikerun

    Posts: 2835

    Apr 10, 2010 4:29 PM GMT
    Apple Dev Program takes stand on nature of consciousness
    http://joeberkovitz.com/blog/2010/04/08/apple-takes-stance-on-consciousness/
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    Apr 10, 2010 5:47 PM GMT
    funny you would post this thread at this time: this morning i woke up and decided i wanted to install flash on my iphone, so that there wouldn't be nonfunctioning boxes on some webpages. i thought i'd just go get a flash app or something, and i was totally unaware of this ongoing issue. in the last few hours i've been edumacated in how venomous apple is being toward adobe, and i really don't understand it. but i'm not a techno-geek, and should probably not speak about that which is mysterious to me.

    but honestly... why does apple feel flash is such a bad deal for the iphone when adobe products work so beautifully on imac's???
  • swimbikerun

    Posts: 2835

    Apr 10, 2010 6:50 PM GMT
    dancerjack saidfunny you would post this thread at this time: this morning i woke up and decided i wanted to install flash on my iphone, so that there wouldn't be nonfunctioning boxes on some webpages. i thought i'd just go get a flash app or something, and i was totally unaware of this ongoing issue. in the last few hours i've been edumacated in how venomous apple is being toward adobe, and i really don't understand it. but i'm not a techno-geek, and should probably not speak about that which is mysterious to me.

    but honestly... why does apple feel flash is such a bad deal for the iphone when adobe products work so beautifully on imac's???


    http://www.pcworld.com/article/188185/apples_ipad_and_the_flash_clash.html
    A lot of people including folks at Apple would have you believe that the sole reason for not allowing Adobe Flash on your iPhone is only due to the performance hit the iPhone might take when visiting a Flash-enabled website. The difference between installing Flash (or Java or Silverlight, etc.) so you can see a webpage and that thing you install being an application are quite blurry. In fact, there are three types of iPhone applications: one that's totally written just for the Phone, one that uses a website that is optimized for the iPhone or a hybrid of the two previous types.
    If Apple lets 3rd party companies install applications that are not written solely for the iPhone (the first type as described above) they lose an inherent advantage of owning the platform (the iPhone).
    To you as a consumer like a customer at a bake sale, who cares how a piece of cake is made, who makes it or how the baker baked it? To Apple it makes all the difference in the world! One reason is: don't take your popular cake recipe (application) that you are selling in my cake store (iTunes) and sell it elsewhere! It makes the iPhone less desirable for people to purchase if you can get the same app on the Android. Apple wants only Apple developers.
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    Apr 10, 2010 7:00 PM GMT
    dancerjack saidfunny you would post this thread at this time: this morning i woke up and decided i wanted to install flash on my iphone, so that there wouldn't be nonfunctioning boxes on some webpages. i thought i'd just go get a flash app or something, and i was totally unaware of this ongoing issue. in the last few hours i've been edumacated in how venomous apple is being toward adobe, and i really don't understand it. but i'm not a techno-geek, and should probably not speak about that which is mysterious to me.

    but honestly... why does apple feel flash is such a bad deal for the iphone when adobe products work so beautifully on imac's???

    At least two reasons..

    1) There's some type of personal issue between Steve Jobs and Adobe.

    2) Flash is a threat to Apple's mobile business. Flash can stream videos, it can be used to create games, be used to create functional applications, and so on. Why buy apps from the itunes store when you can get Flash movies, games, and "apps" for free all over the internet, right?

    Anyways, I don't care too much for Apple these days. As time goes by, it's becoming more evident that they are just as evil as any other corporation. And they've been slapping lawsuits on other mobile phone makers for supposed copyright infringements. Apple's "1984" commercial is just total irony now.
  • DrewT

    Posts: 1327

    Apr 10, 2010 7:12 PM GMT
    Besides Apple's distaste for Flash because it causes crashes in Mac, here is another good reason why from AppleInsider.

    http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/10/04/09/apples_prohibition_of_flash_built_apps_in_iphone_4_0_related_to_multitasking.html
    Basic summary: Apple wants developers to use specific code so that multitasking can be accomplished in the new iPhone OS 4.

    In addition, Apple wants to promote its own codes of HTLM5 which can play videos, and I assume games as well. With the release of the iPad, many companies are now using or developing HTML5 versions of their videos to play friendly with Apple's products. Don't tell me that's not a smart move on Apple's part. Refusing to use Flash, they broaden their own platform and strengthen their overall market share and viability.
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    Apr 10, 2010 7:29 PM GMT
    I will not buy apple products because their "little dictator mentality." They are controlling and anti-competitive. They are as bad as Microsoft ever was.

    If you value intellectual freedom and choice you should consider how apple behaves before supporting them with your money.
  • swimbikerun

    Posts: 2835

    Apr 10, 2010 7:35 PM GMT
    Simply_Drew saidBesides Apple's distaste for Flash because it causes crashes in Mac, here is another good reason why from AppleInsider.

    http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/10/04/09/apples_prohibition_of_flash_built_apps_in_iphone_4_0_related_to_multitasking.html
    Basic summary: Apple wants developers to use specific code so that multitasking can be accomplished in the new iPhone OS 4.

    In addition, Apple wants to promote its own codes of HTLM5 which can play videos, and I assume games as well. With the release of the iPad, many companies are now using or developing HTML5 versions of their videos to play friendly with Apple's products. Don't tell me that's not a smart move on Apple's part. Refusing to use Flash, they broaden their own platform and strengthen their overall market share and viability.
    That's actually a red herring saying that Flash "crashes" in Mac. Whether an app properly uses system resources is really up to the programmer right? I'm a good programmer if my app doesn't crash the operating system, I'm a bad one otherwise.
    It is possible to write an iPhone application using Objective-C that crashes the iPhone and it's possible to write an application using ActionScript that does not crash the iPhone. Regardless of the language an application is developed in I should be aware of what platform I'm programming on.
    The multitasking issue is also a red herring. If I write an application that uses multitasking effectively and can successfully accomplish that goal, then why should Apple care what I tools I used to author such an app?
    Objective-C simply cannot compete on a level playing field. A shocking admission from Apple. Apple is aware that developers use other languages for programming their apps other than Objective-C. The article you reference attempts to make the claim that programmers must program in Objective-C since it and only it can do multitasking. But if Novell or Sun or some other company can successfully replicate multitasking another language, why should Apple care if that is not accomplished in Objective-C?
    The crazy thing here is Apple saying to developers, "put our interests ahead of your own".
    Let's say I spend months and months learning Objective-C, I write a program for the app store using their tools and following all of Apple's rules but it gets denied. I rewrite it to their specifications but it gets denied again and again. Fine, I spend some more time coming up with another program and the whole situation repeats itself. I've tied myself to the App Store and cannot deploy my app anywhere else unless I port it. Not fun.

    Apple's policy is essentially trying to enforce thoughtcrimes.The thought experiment goes like this: Bob makes a great application written in ActionScript for Adobe Flash. He shows his app to Mary. Mary thinks, "Wow! That'd be perfect for the iPhone!" She sits down at her computer and proceeds to write the app in Objective-C using all of Apple's tools and following Apple's rules, submits it to the App Store and gets denied. Why?

    "3.3.1 — Applications may only use Documented APIs in the manner prescribed by Apple and must not use or call any private APIs. Applications must be originally written in Objective-C, C, C++, or JavaScript as executed by the iPhone OS WebKit engine, and only code written in C, C++, and Objective-C may compile and directly link against the Documented APIs (e.g., Applications that link to Documented APIs through an intermediary translation or compatibility layer or tool are prohibited)."

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    Apr 10, 2010 7:46 PM GMT
    swimbikerun saidThat's actually a red herring saying that Flash "crashes" in Mac. Whether an app properly uses system resources is really up to the programmer right? I'm a good programmer if my app doesn't crash the operating system, I'm a bad one otherwise. Regardless of the language an application is developed in I should be aware of what platform I'm programming on.
    The multitasking issue is also a red herring.
    You are right .. the notion that you have to use objective C to do multitasking is horse shit. Objective C lost in the C Language wars long ago. And multitasking is supported by the operating system and harnessed by the language. All the C type languages (Java included) support multitasking one way or another.

    Apple is bad for programmers and bad for creative freedom.
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    Apr 10, 2010 8:10 PM GMT
    swimbikerun said
    If Apple wants to be the odd man out, the industry might leave them behind as the mobile market develops. Hmmm....

    Ummmm.... Apple currently is THE mobile market developer.

    Personally, I find the dichotomy of Apple vs. PC (or perhaps more appropriately nowadays.... Apple vs. everyone else), and the people who support/despise Apple as a very fascinating critique on the idea of a free market.
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    Apr 10, 2010 8:15 PM GMT
    i don't know...i'm kinda with Apple on this one. Flash may be all pretty an everything but I hate it. Whenever I browse the web, the number one thing that causes my browser to crash or slow down is all the Flash programs running on the webpages or some developer didn't code it right and IE can't handle it. i don't want to imagine what that might cause to my iPhone. And then Apple would have to deal with the consumer complaints----not Adobe.

    but that's just my opinion.
  • swimbikerun

    Posts: 2835

    Apr 10, 2010 10:51 PM GMT
    HotToddy said
    swimbikerun said
    If Apple wants to be the odd man out, the industry might leave them behind as the mobile market develops. Hmmm....

    Ummmm.... Apple currently is THE mobile market developer.

    Personally, I find the dichotomy of Apple vs. PC (or perhaps more appropriately nowadays.... Apple vs. everyone else), and the people who support/despise Apple as a very fascinating critique on the idea of a free market.
    For now yes, but things are always in flux.This is not about a hatred of Apple and a love of other companies. And what Apple is doing is decidedly anti-free market. Just think about all the stuff Apple uses for free (just like everyone else). What if Google said "oh you're not using Chrome so no Google searches or Map or anything from us unless you use Chrome." What if Yahoo or Hotmail said, "oh you're not using one of our applications for getting your email? Fine, no email service for you." What if AT&T said, "oh by the way Apple, if you don't have every iPhone user use our new chat application which is going to cost you $$$ every second to use, then no SMS for you." That's free market right? Would you like that?

    HTownRunner saidi don't know...i'm kinda with Apple on this one. Flash may be all pretty an everything but I hate it. Whenever I browse the web, the number one thing that causes my browser to crash or slow down is all the Flash programs running on the webpages or some developer didn't code it right and IE can't handle it. i don't want to imagine what that might cause to my iPhone. And then Apple would have to deal with the consumer complaints----not Adobe.

    but that's just my opinion.
    I'm personally not a huge fan of Adobe Flash either but here's how the conversation goes now:

    Dev: "Ok, here's my app that'd I like to put in the iTune store!"
    App Store: "Great! What did you write it in?"
    Dev: "Wha? What...what does that matter? I wrote it in [insert your favorite language here]"
    App Store: "Oh then fuggetaboutit"
    Dev: "But my application meets all your specifications. It passes all the benchmark tests with your own tools and in fact optimizes some things you've haven't gotten around to fixing yet"
    App Store: "No"
    Dev: "But this app could revolutionize the i[Apple device] and the [device market]"
    App Store: "No"
    Dev: "Geez ok I'll rewrite the damn thing in Objective-C and resubmit it"
    App Store: "No"
    Dev: "But the only reason you rejected it in the first place was because I told you it was written in [insert your favorite language here]! No one from someone who would buy it in the iTunes store to your best Apple software engineers would never really be 100% sure that it wasn't written in Objective-C"
    App Store: "Look, we told you no. You might get the crazy idea of taking your great app and putting it on the [other device]"
    Dev: "But you haven't even looked at it! Isn't it reasonable for you to first look at it instead of rejecting it without having even looked it over?"
    App Store: "We are rejecting your app no matter what the performance is, no matter how successful you might think it will be, no matter what it does, or even if you've decided to rewrite it in Objective-C. Your first mistake was writing that first line of code that was not in Objective-C. You need to 'Think Different' but not that different' Now beat it"
  • Celticmusl

    Posts: 4330

    Apr 10, 2010 11:16 PM GMT
    I love Apple but the feeling is waning. I'm not even going to begin to tell you how much money I've spent on Apple products and iTunes. But lately, through just the last generation of their products and programing they are becoming venomous and hostile to other computer products and programing.

    Through the last iTouch update on the operation system I can no longer use my bluetooth Motorola headset. Well, I can still use them, it's just really difficult and basically functionless for all intents and purposes. Apple got rid of a small part of it's already established program so that many non-apple devices can't work that well with the iPhone or iTouch. Thanks Apple.

    Then, Apple keeps changing it's programming for iTunes so my Palm Pre can't download directly from my iTune Library on my computer. Palm tried to keep up but as you know Apple changes the iTune program about once a month. Thanks Apple.

    I think this proprietary BS is eventually going to give Apple a black eye. To me, their business monopoly tactics are becoming as ugly as MS.
  • swimbikerun

    Posts: 2835

    Apr 11, 2010 1:02 AM GMT
    The crazy thing is, some of the most popular apps, even apps featured in commercials were not written in C, C++, Objective-C or JavaScript using the WebKit.
    Some of you guys think that any rule made up by Apple is just fine so long as they package it nicely.
    What if Apple said, "Only white, straight males need submit applications. No others need apply. After all, most developers are white, straight and male so it makes sense right?"
    Sure, it is their store. They can make just about any rule they want. Even unethical ones? Right?
  • Nodak

    Posts: 72

    Apr 11, 2010 1:42 AM GMT
    Dictatorships are always more efficient than any other form of control; not more desirable just more efficient. Apple has always been very concerned about control if its products.
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    Apr 11, 2010 1:08 PM GMT
    swimbikerun saidThe crazy thing is, some of the most popular apps, even apps featured in commercials were not written in C, C++, Objective-C or JavaScript using the WebKit.
    Some of you guys think that any rule made up by Apple is just fine so long as they package it nicely.
    What if Apple said, "Only white, straight males need submit applications. No others need apply. After all, most developers are white, straight and male so it makes sense right?"
    Sure, it is their store. They can make just about any rule they want. Even unethical ones? Right?


    I am with you in thinking Apple stepped into some douche area but comparing it with bigotry is inane. People choose what programming language they like to use, you do not chose race, gender or sexual orientation.

    And to make a minor correction of what Simply Drew said, I don't think it crashes Mac OS X so much as the plug-in causes Safari to crash and that it is the number one cause of crashes on the system (not the actual system itself.). I agree with you that this is the fault of bad programming, I can see why Apple would not want something that crash prone on the phone and has not in stalled a flash player for mobile safari.
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    Apr 11, 2010 1:24 PM GMT
    swimbikerun said
    HotToddy said
    swimbikerun said
    If Apple wants to be the odd man out, the industry might leave them behind as the mobile market develops. Hmmm....

    Ummmm.... Apple currently is THE mobile market developer.

    Personally, I find the dichotomy of Apple vs. PC (or perhaps more appropriately nowadays.... Apple vs. everyone else), and the people who support/despise Apple as a very fascinating critique on the idea of a free market.
    For now yes, but things are always in flux.This is not about a hatred of Apple and a love of other companies. And what Apple is doing is decidedly anti-free market. Just think about all the stuff Apple uses for free (just like everyone else). What if Google said "oh you're not using Chrome so no Google searches or Map or anything from us unless you use Chrome." What if Yahoo or Hotmail said, "oh you're not using one of our applications for getting your email? Fine, no email service for you." What if AT&T said, "oh by the way Apple, if you don't have every iPhone user use our new chat application which is going to cost you $$$ every second to use, then no SMS for you." That's free market right? Would you like that?

    I know Apple isn't following free-market thinking. I love that you assume I would by default be against that. Personally, I think the whole free market system has devolved into simply a bunch of entities going after maximum profits. Apple, on the other hand, seems to be one of the few companies out there, either through effective and creative spin, or out of genuine concern for their target markets, seem to be creating consumer focused products, as opposed to profit focused products.

    The problem with your examples is that Apple does not say "If you have a Mac, you MUST use iCal, Safari, iTunes, etc as your application defaults. Instead, they integrate their applications with all of their products, offering both perceived and actual benefits from using Apple promoted applications across various Apple hardware devices. I suppose if you wanted to you could use the Facebook browser on your iPhone, Windows Media Player on your iMac, and surf with Google Chrome if you really wanted to.

    Not knowing much about computer programming, I can't really comment of the effectiveness of using C++ or whatever vs Apple mandated development tools. I can just say, from an outsider's perspective, that, well, as heinous as their developer guidelines sound.... the App Store works, and has the most apps of any sort of app sharing/purchasing scheme. That kind of speaks for itself. So in essence, Apple is using very closed market ideals, yet still succeeding in the free market.




  • swimbikerun

    Posts: 2835

    Apr 11, 2010 3:13 PM GMT
    HotToddy said


    I know Apple isn't following free-market thinking. I love that you assume I would by default be against that. Personally, I think the whole free market system has devolved into simply a bunch of entities going after maximum profits. Apple, on the other hand, seems to be one of the few companies out there, either through effective and creative spin, or out of genuine concern for their target markets, seem to be creating consumer focused products, as opposed to profit focused products.


    Yes, this is true. Apple is innovative and focuses quality above a jus about everything else.

    The problem with your examples is that Apple does not say "If you have a Mac, you MUST use iCal, Safari, iTunes, etc as your application defaults. Instead, they integrate their applications with all of their products, offering both perceived and actual benefits from using Apple promoted applications across various Apple hardware devices. I suppose if you wanted to you could use the Facebook browser on your iPhone, Windows Media Player on your iMac, and surf with Google Chrome if you really wanted to.

    This discussion is not about MAC OS X it is about the iPhone OS. You can only use Safari as a browser on the iPhone OS. You miss my point in that Apple has built a walled garden but such a garden still depends on common and free services across the internet.
    My point was that other companies could also start to create walled gardens for their products. A win for Apple's walled garden is a loss for others.

    Not knowing much about computer programming, I can't really comment of the effectiveness of using C++ or whatever vs Apple mandated development tools. I can just say, from an outsider's perspective, that, well, as heinous as their developer guidelines sound.... the App Store works, and has the most apps of any sort of app sharing/purchasing scheme. That kind of speaks for itself. So in essence, Apple is using very closed market ideals, yet still succeeding in the free market.

    This is also true. An article I read said sometimes a walled garden creates a rainforest. A wonderland of opportunity for the company making it.
    If I were Jobs, I'd make this move too. If Job's correct and only C, C++, Objective-C and JavaScript using the WebKit are the only tools that can really provide the best experience then he'd have even more of a reason to ban outside tools.
    Time for me to start learning more Objective-C, lol!

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    Apr 25, 2010 7:01 PM GMT
    their app store, their rules, i'm totally fine with them digging their own public relations hole and having people look for other options in terms of both hardware and software.
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    Apr 25, 2010 7:05 PM GMT
    dancerjack saidbut honestly... why does apple feel flash is such a bad deal for the iphone when adobe products work so beautifully on imac's???

    Because one is a mobile platform, and the other is not.
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    Apr 25, 2010 7:11 PM GMT
    swimbikerun saidThe crazy thing is, some of the most popular apps, even apps featured in commercials were not written in C, C++, Objective-C or JavaScript using the WebKit.
    Some of you guys think that any rule made up by Apple is just fine so long as they package it nicely.
    What if Apple said, "Only white, straight males need submit applications. No others need apply. After all, most developers are white, straight and male so it makes sense right?"
    Sure, it is their store. They can make just about any rule they want. Even unethical ones? Right?

    Bottom line, you're just a Microsoft fanatic, possibly even financially connected with it, who hates anything Apple. Why even post this diatribe here?

    Clearly you have a personal agenda. Your rambling arguments may be dismissed as sour grapes, because Apple is gaining some market share against Microsoft, your personal favorite. OK, we get it, now enough already. It's tough going extinct, isn't it?
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    Apr 25, 2010 7:29 PM GMT
    swimbikerun saidThe crazy thing is, some of the most popular apps, even apps featured in commercials were not written in C, C++, Objective-C or JavaScript using the WebKit.


    Errr.... which ones!? This doesn't seem to be technically possible?!?!
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    Apr 25, 2010 7:37 PM GMT
    I don't think swimbikerun has a clue what he's talking about. Objective-C is unbelievably easy to learn if you've ever used any programming language at all. It's *way* easier than C++ for example... if you already know C or Java then it's trivial.

    If you're a programmer and learning Objective C takes you longer than 2 hours then you should seriously reconsider your career.
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    Apr 29, 2010 10:13 PM GMT
    http://www.apple.com/hotnews/thoughts-on-flash/
  • Anto

    Posts: 2035

    Apr 30, 2010 2:27 AM GMT
    lilTanker saidhttp://www.apple.com/hotnews/thoughts-on-flash/


    Such nonsense and even dishonesty..

    Steve Jobs Is Full Of It