For all of those who own a Mac.

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Apr 24, 2010 8:58 AM GMT
    I dont know if youre aware of the Apple vs Adobe topic that has been growing stronger since the release of the iPad with no flash support and the recent changes to the legal agreement in the AppStore forcing developers to use only those tools and languages specified by Apple.

    Before it was possible to develop apps for the iPhone using flash and with the right tools these apps were able to find their way to the AppStore. Adobe took a step forward announcing a new utility to develop apps for the iphone included in their new Flash to be released as part of the so popular Adobe Creative Suite. However Apple just recently blocked any possibility to do so by making changes to their legal agreement in their AppStore forbidding the development of applications using third party tools(including Adobe's new utility). Now Adobe has had enough and they have made official their move to the Android platform and they have absolutely giving up to the iPhone, iPad and the AppStore.

    Now, it seems like Apple is pushing Adobe more than they should, considering that most Mac users own a Mac for the mere purpose of design using all the nice tools available from Adobe's Creative Suite for Macs. What would happen if Adobe sues Apple(which seems it might happen anytime) and all together stops making their software compatible for Macs? Is it possible for OSX to survive without an Adobe Creative Suite, will designers migrate to windows?
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    Apr 24, 2010 12:47 PM GMT
    I think the day of the Mac user being largely creative users is in the past. Apple has been growing market share for a couples years straight and it isn't to an expanding designer market.

    If Adobe were to quit making apps for the Mac, it would likely cause Apple some difficulty but the real damage would be to itself as the Mac versions of many of their products make up a very health mix of their products. The sales loss would be massive. This is why Adobe won't do it. It would also open up the market for more competition as there would be an entire platform with a need that was not met.

    I think the writing is on the wall for Flash (at least in the mobile space). Adobe blew it and is now betting the farm on Android.
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    Apr 24, 2010 1:07 PM GMT
    Apple also claims the functionality that Flash utilizes will be mostly replaced with HTML5 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTML5, so why bother trying to manage regulating Flash, which everyone admits is quite bloated. Adobe has some real strategic decisions to make, given the exorbitant price points of their software, much of which they are relying on Flash to support.
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    Apr 24, 2010 1:35 PM GMT
    Well, I'm not sure Apple's tactics are half as bad as Microsoft's some years ago, when MS targeted Netscape Navigator for destruction, in favor of their own IE product. And MS won that war.

    Apple has a case that Flash is not a good choice for mobile computing, being bloated as 1969er states, the newer HTML5 standard being superior in that environment.

    As for the other issues raised, I prefer the tighter integration of Apple products, whether on the computer or in the mobile space. Of course, I'm not a developer, just an end user, but with Mac OS X 10.5 and above having UNIX 03 certification on Intel processors, one would imagine Apple will not find itself up the proverbial creek without a paddle if Adobe pulls support for its Mac products. Rather, I suspect it's Adobe whose bargaining position is the weaker.
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    Apr 24, 2010 1:50 PM GMT
    A dozen years ago Adobe Flash was a very exciting product. I couldn't wait to advocate it, use it, and suggest it to my clients. Today Flash is a defect ridden, bloated, buggy dinosaur.

    It is perfectly correct to say that HTML 5, CSS, and H.264 are open standards that are available to anyone to use.

    Furthermore these open standards support unfettered access to content consonant with usability features for the differently-abled that I consider to be extremely important.

    Steve Jobs is certainly a tyrant. However, he has persistently taken stands against legacy technology that threatened the progress of this industry as a whole.

    Leaving Flash out of the mix is a step in the right direction, and I applaud Apple for doing it. Let Flash go the way of the floppy disk, the Power PC, and the Firewire 400 port.
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    Apr 24, 2010 2:08 PM GMT
    MonkeyPuck saidI think the day of the Mac user being largely creative users is in the past. Apple has been growing market share for a couples years straight and it isn't to an expanding designer market.

    If Adobe were to quit making apps for the Mac, it would likely cause Apple some difficulty but the real damage would be to itself as the Mac versions of many of their products make up a very health mix of their products. The sales loss would be massive. This is why Adobe won't do it. It would also open up the market for more competition as there would be an entire platform with a need that was not met.

    I think the writing is on the wall for Flash (at least in the mobile space). Adobe blew it and is now betting the farm on Android.


    note: notice im not talking about flash support for the web but for the creation of applications for Apple's AppStore which is exclusively now using Objective C as programming language.

    So back on track

    Careful there, practically all companies dedicated to software development use PC for that purpose with the only exception of their graphic design department where employees are provided with Macs. Im talking about companies because these are the only ones who actually pay for every piece of software they use.

    Yes, Adobe would lose money BUT why even try to continue dealing with Apple if they just proved they can turn their back whenever they want without even a good reason(Adobe explained how well flash apps would perform on the iPhone) I mean Adobe even put all this investment and effort to build this tool and now its just gone by a mere chance on the legal agreement...Apple is giving them a hard time so they could instead focus on a safer platform, losing money at first during the transition but there's not only Windows(by far owning the market) but also Android which opens a totally new opportunity for Adobe to grow their market. In the long run Apple might have more to lose here.

    Finally, I dont think many companies would find Macs as a good opportunity to sell their software(market share is just way too small) so that hole left by Adobe might take a while to be filled up and even when it does you have to remember that most Designers will not want to learn a totally new tool when they are already familiar with Adobe software and they can still use the creative suite on their macs by simply switching to their Windows virtual install.

    I think theres a lot to think about and the worst part is that consumers are the ones in the middle of the battle field.
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    Apr 24, 2010 2:38 PM GMT
    The fact is, the iPhone/iPad platform is a very important platform, due to the volume of apps being sold.

    Apps created using Flash are probably going to be compromised, and would not run as smoothly as something developed specifically for the iPhone/iPad on the dedicated platform.

    I think that Steve Jobs has made a stand to want high-quality apps. He is known not to suffer any fools, and is unlikely to tolerate sub-standard, buggy apps, which could tarnish the reputation of the iPhone/iPad platform.

    As to whether this will end up with Adobe pulling their entire product line from the Mac platform, I really doubt so. They would lose too much of their cash flow! And believe you me, there would be many others who would relish the opportunity at another chance at this market!
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    Apr 24, 2010 2:49 PM GMT
    BTW, maybe I should mention an odd thing I've been seeing for the last 3 or 4 weeks. I keep getting error messages that say my Flash Player has crashed on my Mac. That's never happened before, not once.

    And if I'm logged into RJ, I also get signed out, and have to log back in with my password. Never had that happen before, either.

    Yet Flash seems to correct itself, and after the crash message, it appears to go right on operating normally. Coincidence, or something going on in light of this cat-fight between Apple & Adobe? I get automatic updates of all my software, so I don't know if Flash or the Mac OS have been changed, to cause this chronic problem. But why NOW? Anyone else having this happen on their Mac?
  • somedaytoo

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    Apr 24, 2010 3:03 PM GMT
    Don't bother with apple products. Microsofts current inovations will put apple back in it's place, at the bottom. The upcomming Windows Phone 7 will do much more than the iPhone ever will, and yes, it will include flash.
  • Celticmusl

    Posts: 4330

    Apr 24, 2010 3:12 PM GMT
    Red_Vespa saidBTW, maybe I should mention an odd thing I've been seeing for the last 3 or 4 weeks. I keep getting error messages that say my Flash Player has crashed on my Mac. That's never happened before, not once.

    And if I'm logged into RJ, I also get signed out, and have to log back in with my password. Never had that happen before, either.

    Yet Flash seems to correct itself, and after the crash message, it appears to go right on operating normally. Coincidence, or something going on in light of this cat-fight between Apple & Adobe? I get automatic updates of all my software, so I don't know if Flash or the Mac OS have been changed, to cause this chronic problem. But why NOW? Anyone else having this happen on their Mac?



    Flash is not crashing, but recently I get signed out of RJ just like you. I do have a Mac.
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    Apr 24, 2010 3:16 PM GMT
    somedaytoo saidDon't bother with apple products. Microsofts current inovations will put apple back in it's place, at the bottom. The upcomming Windows Phone 7 will do much more than the iPhone ever will, and yes, it will include flash.


    Because ...you can only churn out shit products for so long until through shear dumb luck your billion dollar R&D has to hit on something good?
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    Apr 24, 2010 3:18 PM GMT
    somedaytoo saidDon't bother with apple products. Microsofts current inovations will put apple back in it's place, at the bottom. The upcomming Windows Phone 7 will do much more than the iPhone ever will, and yes, it will include flash.

    If the Windows Phone 7 includes Flash only it will be betting on obsolete technology. And what is this "Microsofts current inovations will put apple back in it's place, at the bottom"? Sounds like you take an immature "my team versus your team" approach, rather than logical and fact-based.

    Microsoft was still using text-based MS-DOS when the Mac was GUI. There's hardly been a Windows "innovation" that wasn't seen in the Mac OS first, despite Bill Gates propaganda. What Microsoft DOES have is a larger installed user base, thanks to MS going after the business market through IBM (but later sucking the life blood out of Big Blue), while Apple focused on the smaller educational and home markets.

    The so-called MS innovations are derivative, seldom completely original, just like Windows is derivative from the Mac. MS did not create the iPod, a landmark way to listen to music, nor the iTunes store, the biggest on Earth, and certainly not the iPhone, which revolutionized smart phones. The best you can say is that Phone 7 might try to out-iPhone the iPhone. You really call that "innovation" or copying? icon_rolleyes.gif
  • Celticmusl

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    Apr 24, 2010 3:23 PM GMT
    MsclDrew said
    somedaytoo saidDon't bother with apple products. Microsofts current inovations will put apple back in it's place, at the bottom. The upcomming Windows Phone 7 will do much more than the iPhone ever will, and yes, it will include flash.


    Because ...you can only churn out shit products for so long until through shear dumb luck your billion dollar R&D has to hit on something good?


    Without Apple's innovation over the last......hmmm.......30 years....microsoft would still be having us use floppy disks. Srsly, I can't think of any innovation microsoft has come up with, other than being ruthless and underhanded in keeping their monopoly afloat.

    Apple, on the other hand, has recently learned how to be a corrupt monopoly from the teachings of microsoft. I really don't like the path that Apple is following at this point. They are definitely leaning towards the dark side of the force.
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    Apr 24, 2010 3:42 PM GMT
    charlitos said

    note: notice im not talking about flash support for the web but for the creation of applications for Apple's AppStore which is exclusively now using Objective C as programming language.


    I got that, but I just don't think the two completely detached from each other. Flash is the development platform, the web, or runtime apps are the delivery. Apple's changes now completely shut Adobe's Flash out. Previously if you developed a web app in flash you could at least make it a stand alone app as well and get it on the iPhone. That door is now closed. I think if Adobe had been on the ball with mobile flash years ago, they might have stood a change, but then again, maybe not. Also, the AppStore is not exclusive to Objective-C. Here is what the agreement says:

    "Applications must be originally written in Objective-C, C, C++, or JavaScript as executed by the iPhone OS WebKit engine, and only code written in C, C++, and Objective-C may compile and directly link against the Documented APIs"

    So, developers have three programing languages and one scripting language. None of this does any good for Flash developers.

    charlitos said
    So back on track

    Careful there, practically all companies dedicated to software development use PC for that purpose with the only exception of their graphic design department where employees are provided with Macs. Im talking about companies because these are the only ones who actually pay for every piece of software they use.


    No argument here, but I am not sure what you are getting at with this. Is it that companies buying software would just switch to an all windows environment?

    charlitos said
    Yes, Adobe would lose money BUT why even try to continue dealing with Apple if they just proved they can turn their back whenever they want without even a good reason(Adobe explained how well flash apps would perform on the iPhone) I mean Adobe even put all this investment and effort to build this tool and now its just gone by a mere chance on the legal agreement...Apple is giving them a hard time so they could instead focus on a safer platform, losing money at first during the transition but there's not only Windows(by far owning the market) but also Android which opens a totally new opportunity for Adobe to grow their market. In the long run Apple might have more to lose here.

    Finally, I dont think many companies would find Macs as a good opportunity to sell their software(market share is just way too small) so that hole left by Adobe might take a while to be filled up and even when it does you have to remember that most Designers will not want to learn a totally new tool when they are already familiar with Adobe software and they can still use the creative suite on their macs by simply switching to their Windows virtual install.


    I think Apple not giving a good reason is debatable. Allowing development on other platforms turns over the quality and the features that applications support to a third party. When Apple release's new API's or makes changes to API's developers using a 3rd party development are stuck. So, if you are developing in Flash, you have to wait for Adobe to update its software to take advantage of changes until then you are just stuck (There is an irony that people are complaining about Apple's walled garden when in reality Adobe offers nothing but the same. Flash apps will ultimately only support what Adobe will allow you to have.). In addition, 3rd party development tools really just produce lowest common denominator apps. The idea is that you develop in something like Flash and then you have an app that runs on multiple platforms. It is the least amount of work to get an app onto the largest number of platforms but the net result is the consumer doesn't get apps that take advantage of any of the benefits of their chosen platform.

    Adobe and Apple also have a long history of working together and as such have had their share of pissing matches and this is one more in that history. Adobe drug its heels getting its apps to Mac OS X and ten years in, they still haven't gotten them to be Cocoa apps and actually take advantage of a lot of Mac OS X's features. There was the argument about giving flash direct hardware support for video encoding/decoding and Apple just allowed that. The reality is people are focusing on the one issue and missing the larger picture. Adobe's cash cow isn't flash, it is Photoshop. Cutting off massive revenue streams from Photoshop, InDesign and After Effects over one Flash on the iPhone would be insane. I also have little doubt that Apple would happily step and are replace them if need be. Without a doubt this would hurt both companies, but in the long run I think Apple would survive. Apple is entrenched in other markets that don't involve Adobe (music creation, video editing) and Apple sells a ton of computers to consumers who's only installed Adobe product is the Flash player. So, while some damage to Apple would happen, it by no means would take out the Mac Platform.

    charlitos said
    I think theres a lot to think about and the worst part is that consumers are the ones in the middle of the battle field.


    Right now, I don't think consumers are being impacted, but if Adobe were to pull some scorched earth policy in response (I would put money on they don't do anything past a lawsuit and I think that is just posturing at the moment) then yes consumers might feel some pain. I don't know if you are Mac user or not but for a lot of us, Adobe just isn't that big of a deal. I don't personally own an Adobe product. I long ago gave up on the company getting their apps to be completely native and for what I really used Photoshop for (I am in no way a power user) there are plenty of great Mac OS X Apps to choose from. The Flash player on the Mac is such an abomination I have installed a Flash blocker. When it comes to iPhone and iPad, I have felt no impact to the current state of consternation between the two companies. It doesn't mean it won't happen, but I does make me think that the whole thing is overblown as an issue.

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    Apr 24, 2010 3:42 PM GMT
    Celticmusl said
    MsclDrew said
    somedaytoo saidDon't bother with apple products. Microsofts current inovations will put apple back in it's place, at the bottom. The upcomming Windows Phone 7 will do much more than the iPhone ever will, and yes, it will include flash.


    Because ...you can only churn out shit products for so long until through shear dumb luck your billion dollar R&D has to hit on something good?


    Without Apple's innovation over the last......hmmm.......30 years....microsoft would still be having us use floppy disks. Srsly, I can't think of any innovation microsoft has come up with, other than being ruthless and underhanded in keeping their monopoly afloat.

    Apple, on the other hand, has recently learned how to be a corrupt monopoly from the teachings of microsoft. I really don't like the path that Apple is following at this point. They are definitely leaning towards the dark side of the force.


    Don't forget xerox.... what microsoft didn't steal from apple they stole from them icon_rolleyes.gif
  • CuriousJockAZ

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    Apr 24, 2010 3:45 PM GMT
    Apple will eventually take over the world -- cool!!! icon_lol.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Apr 24, 2010 3:47 PM GMT
    somedaytoo saidDon't bother with apple products. Microsofts current inovations will put apple back in it's place, at the bottom. The upcomming Windows Phone 7 will do much more than the iPhone ever will, and yes, it will include flash.


    buahahahahahaha.... take another puff
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    Apr 24, 2010 3:49 PM GMT
    Re: Apple vs. Microsoft -

    This argument is tired and I am not sure why people insist on having it year over year, decade over decade.

    The reality is that the both can be successful. The idea that in order for one to win the other has to fail is incorrect. They can both have successful products in the same market. They have both been in the OS market for over 20 years now and both have had theirs success and their lessor moments and both are currently doing well. It is time to let go of the ideological pissing match and just be secure in your personal choice.
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    Apr 24, 2010 4:00 PM GMT
    Apple has a great M&A specialist on board right now to help with corporate acquisitions.

    http://digitaldaily.allthingsd.com/20100115/apples-hired-and-ma-specialist-what’s-adobes-market-cap-again/ (URL won't link... sorry)

    As the article intimates (and as dozens of other opinions on the net do as well), Apple should buy Adobe. Apple can then phase out the Windoze versions of its products over several years and drive people to Apple hardware (that is, after all, how Apple makes money). In an unfettered corporate market, this could happen. Adobe would only cost about 1/2 of Apple's cash hoard. Then Apple could be done arguing about Adobe this & that and get on with taking over the world.

    BTW, Apple is now valued as the 3rd largest company (by market cap) in the U.S. and will soon overtake Microsoft at number 2. I predict Apple's revenues will also surpass Microsoft's in the next several years. Only ExxonMobil is larger by market cap.
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    Apr 24, 2010 4:04 PM GMT
    MonkeyPuck saidRe: Apple vs. Microsoft -

    This argument is tired and I am not sure why people insist on having it year over year, decade over decade.

    The reality is that the both can be successful.


    far from tired, it's one of the defining competitions in capitalism. studied in marketing and strategy classes in past decades and for decades to come.

    you're right though, they both CAN AND WILL be successful, but Microsoft will become a company whose products people have to have and Apple a company whose products people want to have. already there actually.
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    Apr 24, 2010 4:16 PM GMT
    rightasrain said
    MonkeyPuck saidRe: Apple vs. Microsoft -

    This argument is tired and I am not sure why people insist on having it year over year, decade over decade.

    The reality is that the both can be successful.


    far from tired, it's one of the defining competitions in capitalism. studied in marketing and strategy classes in past decades and for decades to come.

    you're right though, they both CAN AND WILL be successful, but Microsoft will become a company whose products people have to have and Apple a company whose products people want to have. already there actually.


    the arguement above is not an academic discussion on marketing and strategy it is more like "my dad can beat up your dad" and it is has gone on for decades with no ones dad winning. It is tired. You are correct about a legitimate discussion of the approaches of two different companies but what mostly transpired is over the top posturing about who's toys are better.
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    Apr 24, 2010 4:18 PM GMT
    Adobe has to find a way to deal with it.

    I manage a creative department that uses Macs with Adobe CS half for print but half developing interactive graphics for the web using Flash. It took years of training and thousands of dollars to get my staff perfected on Flash. Now anything that we develop for the web using Flash can't be viewed on Apple's mobile devices. Same with video that our photography staff creates, which is encoded as a Flash player. All being turned on its heals.

    It's not acceptable to us to continue developing Flash-based products if they can't be viewed on mobile devices. So we have already started the process of ditching our use of Flash. We still use the rest of the Adobe suite intensively, InDesign, Photoshop, Illustrator. But I think it won't be long before Flash is a thing of the past for our department. Speaking with many other managers in my industry around the country, the same is happening.

    And so the bottom line is that Apple will win the Flash fight. Adobe is going to have no choice if they want a sustainable web product, they will have to develop something that works on Apple mobile devices. There IS an opportunity here: Creative people hate programming code and Adobe should be looking for a design interface that translates into code that can work on all mobile devices as well as web browsers. Apps are a huge part of it, but don't forget all the Flash-based websites that you can't see on an iPad or iPhone.

    Meanwhile, off to learning JavaScript, HTML5, CSS, and H.264
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    Apr 24, 2010 4:22 PM GMT
    charlitos saidWhat would happen if Adobe sues Apple(which seems it might happen anytime) and all together stops making their software compatible for Macs? Is it possible for OSX to survive without an Adobe Creative Suite, will designers migrate to windows?


    not only would it be possible for OS X (i assume you mean Apple in the bigger picture?), if you know anything about Apple you know they likely have a Photoshop competitor waiting in the wings. there is editorial speculation on the internet that Apple WANTS Adobe to stop CS development. Adobe and Apple already have overlapping products. Apple may be ready to get on with the fight.

    Apple also likely has a more full-featured iWork suite waiting should Microsoft ever pull Office for Mac.
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    Apr 24, 2010 4:24 PM GMT
    rightasrain said
    charlitos saidWhat would happen if Adobe sues Apple(which seems it might happen anytime) and all together stops making their software compatible for Macs? Is it possible for OSX to survive without an Adobe Creative Suite, will designers migrate to windows?


    not only would it be possible for OS X (i assume you mean Apple in the bigger picture?), if you know anything about Apple you know they likely have a Photoshop competitor waiting in the wings. there is editorial speculation on the internet that Apple WANTS Adobe to stop CS development. Adobe and Apple already have overlapping products. Apple may be ready to get on with the fight.

    Apple also likely has a more full-featured iWork suite waiting should Microsoft ever pull Office for Mac.


    InDesign and Illustrator are major Adobe products with no Apple equal, and nothing comes close to the power of Photoshop.

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    Apr 24, 2010 4:29 PM GMT
    MonkeyPuck said
    rightasrain said
    MonkeyPuck saidRe: Apple vs. Microsoft -

    This argument is tired and I am not sure why people insist on having it year over year, decade over decade.

    The reality is that the both can be successful.


    far from tired, it's one of the defining competitions in capitalism. studied in marketing and strategy classes in past decades and for decades to come.

    you're right though, they both CAN AND WILL be successful, but Microsoft will become a company whose products people have to have and Apple a company whose products people want to have. already there actually.


    the arguement above is not an academic discussion on marketing and strategy it is more like "my dad can beat up your dad" and it is has gone on for decades with no ones dad winning. It is tired. You are correct about a legitimate discussion of the approaches of two different companies but what mostly transpired is over the top posturing about who's toys are better.


    well apparently it's tired to you monkeypuck, but not to everyone. and 'who's [sic] toys are better' is the defining outcome of capitalism.... totally relevant and interesting.