Strict Abortion Measures Enacted in Oklahoma http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/28/us/28abortion.html?src=me&ref=general#

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Apr 28, 2010 11:40 PM GMT
    So unbelievable I had to read it twice. It blows me away this is happening just over 1,000 miles away from Toronto. Now that I have a pretty clear picture of what life must be like for some pregnant women in Oklahoma --pretty fucking grim!-- I was curious what the laws are like in other States. In case you're wondering, abortion is legal across Canada. It is covered by Medicare. And men have NO legal right to stop a woman from getting one. As it should be, in my opinion. I realize this isn't a "gay" issue, per se, but I would really love to hear from you guys. Is it this bad for women in other States?
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    Apr 28, 2010 11:43 PM GMT
    Here's the link to the article:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/28/us/28abortion.html?src=me&ref=general#
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Apr 29, 2010 12:05 AM GMT
    Abortions are legal in the US nationwide, however they will not be covered by the Obamacare bill, unless it is required for the heatlh of the mother. Otherwise, it will be treated as elective surgery.
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    Apr 29, 2010 12:24 AM GMT
    Also, a court decision here in 1991 confirmed that a fetus is not a person until it is born and fully outside the woman's body. Is this true in the U.S.? Or is that up to the individual States?
    Hmm, I guess this is why G*d invented Wikipedia.
    But I'd also love to hear from guys here on RJ speaking about women's issues.
  • TadPohl

    Posts: 259

    Apr 29, 2010 3:40 AM GMT
    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703648304575212463338133380.html?mod=WSJ_business_IndustryNews_DLW

    Do laws and bills passed fall squarely on the actions and responsibilities of government officials or are the people accountable also?
    People tend to let things slide because they see no immediate effect on their lives. They don't care or find it easier/ more convenient to blindly follow a leader... this is how I believe Bush was elected twice and how California elected a action star as their governor.
    Things will change when people have had enough and move. Hopefully before it becomes too late.

    It's important to remember the Holocaust and understand that it could have been prevented if the people acted.


    "THEY CAME FIRST for the Communists,
    and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

    THEN THEY CAME for the Jews,
    and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

    THEN THEY CAME for the trade unionists,
    and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

    THEN THEY CAME for me
    and by that time no one was left to speak up."
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Apr 29, 2010 3:15 PM GMT
    Echo!

    Echo...

    Echo...

    Echo...

    Echo...
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    Apr 29, 2010 3:27 PM GMT
    What intrigues me are the RJ members here who support the Republican Party and the right-wing, which is responsible for this. And they may reply: "I don't specifically support this, don't generalize, don't blame all Republicans for this. All Republicans don't think this way."

    Yet... they blindly support and vote for Republican office holders, who pass these laws and measures. What are we to think?

    "I don't support what Republicans do, against women and gays, I just vote for them." HUH??? I still fail to grasp their logic, and how they can consider themselves exempt from these legislative consequences of the Republicans they vote into office. icon_question.gif
  • coolarmydude

    Posts: 9190

    Apr 29, 2010 3:29 PM GMT
    I have to ask how in the world can the state enforce this mind-numbingly dumb law without violating the doctor/patient confidentiality?

    And of course these are some of the same damned conservatives who complained that government run healthcare would violate that right!!
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Apr 29, 2010 3:45 PM GMT
    Up here we have of a ratio of about 30 abortions to every 100 live births.
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    Apr 29, 2010 4:01 PM GMT
    Red_Vespa saidWhat intrigues me are the RJ members here who support the Republican Party and the right-wing, which is responsible for this. And they may reply: "I don't specifically support this, don't generalize, don't blame all Republicans for this. All Republicans don't think this way."

    Yet... they blindly support and vote for Republican office holders, who pass these laws and measures. What are we to think?

    "I don't support what Republicans do, against women and gays, I just vote for them." HUH??? I still fail to grasp their logic, and how they can consider themselves exempt from these legislative consequences of the Republicans they vote into office. icon_question.gif


    Great post. That is a good question for southbeach and PAjock21. Gay republicans are such hypocrites.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Apr 29, 2010 4:46 PM GMT
    I'm kinda split over the issue of abortion--but I don't think the government has any place telling people what to do over issues like this.

    What strikes me as odd is that the same people who are cheering over this... are the same people who are against "Obamacare" and government healthcare take-over.

    These are the same people who care more about potential life than the people who die without sufficent health care.

    These are the same people who care more about an embryo than they do prisoners and death row inmates.

    These are the same people who are terrifed about sex sooo much that they do not want it being taught in schools.

    My aunt and uncle are conservative Catholic wing-nuts--they have a son who has gotten two girls pregnant. My cousin got both girls pregnant outside of marriage, he has two kids, another baby was born still born (three babies total), he's gotten married twice, dropped out of college, and plays with video games more than his two children. Yet all is well according to my aunt and uncle... because my cousin goes to church each week and is raising his kids as Catholics too. My aunt and uncle are staunchly against abortion and also voted against gay-marriage in my state (Maine) this past November. They are for teacher-led prayer in schools, against sex-ed, and believe that Christ is being taken out of X-mas.They are small-minded hypocrites.

    There are ways to decrease the amount of abortions, but the religious right do not like those 'ways.'
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    Apr 29, 2010 4:54 PM GMT
    danforthboytoy saidSo unbelievable I had to read it twice. It blows me away this is happening just over 1,000 miles away from Toronto. Now that I have a pretty clear picture of what life must be like for some pregnant women in Oklahoma --pretty fucking grim!-- I was curious what the laws are like in other States. In case you're wondering, abortion is legal across Canada. It is covered by Medicare. And men have NO legal right to stop a woman from getting one. As it should be, in my opinion. I realize this isn't a "gay" issue, per se, but I would really love to hear from you guys. Is it this bad for women in other States?


    I agree with you mostly... however, the statement above in red is not as 'black and white' to me. In some cases, yes I would agree with you (e.g. rape, incest, fear of attack from the father), but that baby if half of the father's... it just happens to be within the mother... it's too bad it has to be this way.

    Where's 'Matrix' technology when you need it?
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    Apr 29, 2010 5:10 PM GMT
    http://www.theonion.com/video/new-law-requires-women-to-name-baby-paint-nursery,14393/
  • Delivis

    Posts: 2332

    Apr 29, 2010 5:19 PM GMT
    Sounds like these measures are intended to get the mother to bond with the fetus and humanize it; they want to pump as much guilt as they possibly can into the woman.
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    Apr 29, 2010 5:31 PM GMT
    mnjock2003 saidhttp://www.theonion.com/video/new-law-requires-women-to-name-baby-paint-nursery,14393/


    Sad thing... this isn't that far from what Okla-State would like to happen
  • darryaz

    Posts: 186

    Apr 29, 2010 5:33 PM GMT
    Makes me proud to be from Oklahoma (not).
  • Delivis

    Posts: 2332

    Apr 29, 2010 5:37 PM GMT
    mnjock2003 saidhttp://www.theonion.com/video/new-law-requires-women-to-name-baby-paint-nursery,14393/


    Loved it..icon_smile.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Apr 29, 2010 7:07 PM GMT
    danforthboytoy said
    ... And men have NO legal right to stop a woman from getting one. As it should be, in my opinion...

    conscienti1984 said
    I agree with you mostly... however, the statement above in red is not as 'black and white' to me. In some cases, yes I would agree with you (e.g. rape, incest, fear of attack from the father), but that baby if half of the father's... it just happens to be within the mother... it's too bad it has to be this way.
    Where's 'Matrix' technology when you need it?


    Obviously, I think the woman and father should discuss what to do together. But you really think a man should have the legal right to force a woman to go through with the pregnancy? Nine months? Then childbirth? Then...what? Force her to be a happy, loving mother?
    Yow!
    I don't want to come off like some kind of Wiccan priestess or something, but you know, women in general -around the world- don't really have as much of a say in how our world is governed. It's pretty unbalanced. Menstruation and pregnancy have been used to basically knock them out of the game for way too long. One step to redress this would be to allow all women final say when it comes to procreation. Men would have to learn to present their case then step back and respect the woman's decision.
    I know, that came out sounding a little fairy-tale-ish. The law forbidding men from stopping women up here came into effect the year before I was born, so really, it's been like this my whole life.
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    Apr 29, 2010 7:28 PM GMT
    darryaz saidMakes me proud to be from Oklahoma (not).


    ugh same here.
    Sometimes more often than not, im ashamed to say im from this state.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Apr 29, 2010 7:30 PM GMT
    @ red_vespa:
    What intrigues me are the RJ members here who support the Republican Party and the right-wing, which is responsible for this. And they may reply: "I don't specifically support this, don't generalize, don't blame all Republicans for this. All Republicans don't think this way."

    Yet... they blindly support and vote for Republican office holders, who pass these laws and measures. What are we to think?

    "I don't support what Republicans do, against women and gays, I just vote for them." HUH??? I still fail to grasp their logic, and how they can consider themselves exempt from these legislative consequences of the Republicans they vote into office.


    From what I understand from the two (2) Republicans I've chatted with on RJ, they're aware their Party condemns their lifestyle, but are willing to live with that because they have decided that things like Big Government and whatever else are more important to them.

    I can't condemn them for this. In fact, there is something really selfless about the way they've cast aside their Party's hatred for their sexuality in favour of (in their way of seeing things) the Greater Good. (I really shouldn't be speaking for them, but this is what I understand from our email conversations.)

    What we haven't talked about is when and how and why they decided that the issues surrounding their sexuality took the back seat to these other issues. I mean, that has to take guts.
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    Apr 29, 2010 7:43 PM GMT
    This little nugget stuck out in that Times' article:

    "State Senator Todd Lamb, the majority floor leader, said in an interview after the vote. “Maybe someday these babies will grow up to be police officers and arrest bad people"

    Jesus! He sounds like a fucking six-year old! I picture him holding a big lollipop in one hand and his mommy's hand in the other. LOL
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Apr 29, 2010 7:47 PM GMT
    Come on all you anti-abortion RJ members. Where are you? I recall reading posts from at least three of you in a single thread last night.

    Funny how gay males such as yourselves also happen to identify as *ahem* Republicans. Funny, that.
  • Delivis

    Posts: 2332

    Apr 29, 2010 8:06 PM GMT
    mattinottawaAgain saidThis little nugget stuck out in that Times' article:

    "State Senator Todd Lamb, the majority floor leader, said in an interview after the vote. “Maybe someday these babies will grow up to be police officers and arrest bad people"

    Jesus! He sounds like a fucking six-year old! I picture him holding a big lollipop in one hand and his mommy's hand in the other. LOL


    Yes, this is a variation on what is sometimes called the Mozart (or Beethoven, whatever) argument. It goes something like : the baby born could be the next Mozart (or Einstein, take your pick), so aborting it is wrong on the basis that it may rid us of a potential genius.

    There are of course several things wrong with this argument, not the least of which is the fact that the baby born could be the next Hitler. But more fundamentally one has to ask why anyone making this sort of argument is not having sex right now, and all the time, with everyone they can. Every time you are not trying to procreate is a missed oppertunity for the next Mozart.
  • roadbikeRob

    Posts: 14380

    Apr 29, 2010 9:40 PM GMT
    What do you expect from an impoverished, red republican state like Oklahoma. This latest abortion restriction doesn't surprise me the least. Oklahoma is totally run by the religious right lunatics so what do you expect from the Sooner State.
  • leojock1985

    Posts: 76

    Apr 29, 2010 9:44 PM GMT
    Here's my view on Abortion:

    1) Under all circumstances in no way shape or form should an abortion take place. (I will address all the other circumstances where all you are jumping out of your seats and proclaiming is just in a few)

    2) From the moment of conception there is a new life with it's OWN UNIQUE DNA and therefore should be honored just like any other life.

    3) I AM PRO LIFE AND THINK capital punishment is a crime in itself and am against it. I AM PRO LIFE (funny how republicans as a whole are suppose to be pro-life but think murdering someone on death row is justified... mmm not to mention democrats are against capital punishment but for abortions... MMMM I seee a big disparity amoungst party belief's)

    4) Do you know since abortion was legalized in 1973 there has been over 45 MILLION abortions.. seems like America is having it's own legalized holocaust.

    5) for those who want to trounce my belief's with rape and a mothers health here is where I stand. 1% of abortions a year is due to rape, incest, or risk to mothers health. If you do the numbers that's about 13,000 babies killed each year. In my opinion there should be 2 things done make those people who are indeed in this horrific situation give their baby up for adoption and are paid to do so by the governement. Why do I believe this?? Why should you kill an innocent baby because of unfortunate circumstances?? Make it benefical to the mother to carry the baby and give it up for adoption... AND in doing this there needs to be easier adoption procedures in this country. I feel the procedures are absolutely way to lengthy and costly and should be expidited (sp?)

    6) AND since when do women only get the right to decide the babies future?? it's half the fathers and half the mothers.. the fact some of you say the father has no right to have a say in their babies decision over life.. then u should agree that fathers should pay NOTHING in child support when they abandon their children.. there should be no seperation of legal rights during pregnancy and after pregnancy.. WHERE IS THE CONSISTANCY it drives me crazy..

    7) Those of you who feel abortion is just b/c it's the mother's decision then you should have no arguement when a mother kills her own children post birth.. in both situations the baby CANNOT live on their own and they need their mother/father's money/food/clothing/shelter to survive. It's a very simple concept, yet I cannot understand everyone who throw up their hands and say Amy Fisher was horrible for doing what she did.. umm she did exactly what 45 million americans have done.. kill their baby..

    icon_cool.gif i'm also sick and tired of the Governement rewarding those people who are lazy, irresponsible in life by allowing an easy way out. Yes get an abortion if you can't keep your legs closed or have ur man put a condom on.. or better yet we have a welfare system directed to supporting those who wont' go to school and get an education and who are to lazy to work 9-5 because they'd rather sit at home in their tax-payer assited living house smoking cigs, and drinking booze.

    This country is out of control.. the government has been to big for too long and needs alot of trimming. I'm a fiscally conservative republican who is outraged by the spending OF BOTH BUSH AND OBAMA!!!! Obama should be held just as accountable for quadroupling (sp again sorry haha) the yearly deficit and it all needs to stop!!!

    Also for those who are going to throw how can I be republican and gay... UMM ever hear of the log cabin republicans??? They stand for equal rights for gays and other things..

    I love how sooo many people say stop judging the gays because they are gay.. everyone says i'm not just gay i'm a person.. WELL SAME GOES FOR ME.. Being gay is such a small part of who I am.. I put other things infront of my sexuality and so should other people.. but when gays prounce around the way they do.. (some of them) of course people are going to judge you.. but there is no way shape or form i'm going to let my sexuality be what defines me!!! And those who want equality.. well start holding your representatives responsible for their actions all across the board!!!

    ok I think i'm done for now.. I'm sure a bunch of people are going to jump down my throat and go ahead just make sure you have a big dick hahah JUST KIDDING!! but anyways Those are MY VIEWS I respect others opinions on subject matters but theres way to much inconsistancy in soo many of what republicans and democrats say and do it makes me sick!! I am constant all across the board.. So I hope some of you enjoyed a fresh perspective on this issue and others..

    LOVE YOU ALL icon_smile.gif.. (as Eva Markvoort says I love love love everyone may she rest in peace) I hope everyone knows her story b/c she can teach everyone a thing or two about LOVE and how precious life really is!!!