Something that has kind of bothered me...

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    Jan 28, 2008 6:45 PM GMT
    Alright, I am currently a student at the University of Central Florida. On our campus we have a free speech lawn where anyone or any person can say whatever they want. I have no problem with this since the United States is based on free speech. I do, however, have a problem with this minister who comes to our campus. He brings a megaphone and and wears a sign saying homo is sin and on the back has some bible verse stating how wrong homosexuality is. Again I don't have a problem with that he is free to think what he wants, but I do get offended when he screams at the top of his lungs that all gays and awful people who should be removed from society. The part that really set me off was when he said that there is no point to a gay relationship and we might as well have blow up dolls. I'm sorry but last time I checked a blow up could not care for you, hold you, cry with you, cry to you, love you. It just really bothered me that someone could be this pompus and arrogant. I don't know how many people heard about with happened at Stetson college in Deland but a friend of mine, Will Daly, was verbally assulted, had death to fags carved on his door with a knife, and was eventually jumped and beat up. What people don't realize is that by allowing men like this "minister" to say these things, they inadvertantly cause hate to spread and lead people to perform these awful acts.

    I have decided to get together with some of my friends to protest against this man. I don't know if he is still going to be out there or not but I believe wee will make a statement nonetheless. We are going to go out and show that love concurs hate. We found several quotes to use, many being bible verses simply to combat him. "This is the message you heard
    from the beginning:
    We should love one another."
    --1 John 3:11


    "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another."
    --John 13:34


    "I like your Christ.
    I do not like your Christians.
    They are so unlike your Christ."
    --Gandhi


    "A man cannot love his God, and hate his brother: he cannot expect mercy, who shows none."
    --Alexander Campbell


    "If you hate a person, you hate something in him that is part of yourself. What isn't part of ourselves doesn't disturb us."
    --Hermann Hesse


    "A man who lives, not by what he loves but what he hates, is A SICK MAN."
    --Archibald MacLeish


    "GOD DOES NOT ABHOR LOVE. HE ABHORS HATRED."

    Any thoughts on this topic or suggestions are greatly appreciated. icon_biggrin.gif

    "It begins with jokes (that's so gay), then progresses to written threats, then to verbal threats and finally physical violence." Will Daly
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    Jan 28, 2008 7:20 PM GMT
    I highly commend your initiative.

    I would check with your University to doublecheck - his right to free speach may not be as blanket as you think...

    Inciting others to hatred, violence, or discrimination is frequently a violation of free speach rules at most campuses.

    If the free speach rules are absolutely blanket...

    A good protest would be to set up a stereo (a small mini system should be enough) next to him and just blare him out when he appears... so loud that no one can hear him... maybe a good dance mix... then hand out gay communitty resource literature to anyone who comes over. Fly a rainbow flag or two.

    Don't get into an argument with him directly - you can't change a zealots mind, and you might be accused of trying to limit on his free speech.

    Good Luck.
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    Jan 28, 2008 7:25 PM GMT
    Read the Gospel of John. Jesus had a boyfriend...the beloved disciple. Also read "the man jesus loved" by Theodorew. Jennings, Jr. explains j's boyfriend and j's opposition to traditional marriage
  • MikePhilPerez

    Posts: 4357

    Jan 28, 2008 7:51 PM GMT
    As ITJock says "his right to free speech may not be as blanket as you think...

    Inciting others to hatred, violence, or discrimination is frequently a violation of free speech rules at most campuses"

    To the best of my knowledge, it is here in Ireland. If that guy was spouting that kind of crap on a campuses here in Ireland (free speech or not)he would probably be arrested.

    I would first check and see if he is breaking some law. If he is, report him and get him arrested or at the very least, kicked of campuses.

    If he is not breaking a law, then go ahead with your protest, and good luck with it. All I will say is don't get violent with him, don't break the law. You are a better person than him.

    Mike
  • BlackJock79

    Posts: 437

    Jan 28, 2008 7:58 PM GMT
    I say you wait until a day that he is going to be there, get together with a bunch of your gay friends and go sit on the lawn in front of him and make out without shirts on. Everytime he comes just wear something more revealing and feel up your boyfriend while french kissing him for the entire campus including the minister. That'll teach him! icon_lol.gif
  • BlackJock79

    Posts: 437

    Jan 28, 2008 8:05 PM GMT
    We had one of those areas on my campus. I used to aviod it like the plague. If I HAD to pass through it to go to class, I always made sure to have my headphones on blast and my "angry black man" face on. I usually got through without too many people touching me. LOL! They would put up this DISGUSTING display once a sememster on abortion with bloody dead aborted fetus's. It was the most disgusting thing ever. One thing I learned is that people like that are LOOKING for a response. I never even acknowledged their existence. I noticed that every week they could get someone to debate with them they would come back. Once nobody paid any attention to them at all they stopped coming.
  • HndsmKansan

    Posts: 16311

    Jan 28, 2008 8:22 PM GMT
    Kudos to you for taking a stand! I think you are totally in the right and I'd be the first to support your position. I do think you need to emphasize the need to be "accepting of others" and the "importance of flexibility". Be civil.... DO NOT use any hateful tactics or anything that would be construed as inappropriate. The point I would suggest you encourage is acceptance of all for their views and who they are.. not to turn it into a "them and us" kind of thing.
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    Jan 29, 2008 1:09 AM GMT
    Understand that religion, and false belief systems, are the conduit for much evil, hate, and intolerance.

    Sadly, he's probably gay (minister) or was molested. The false belief system is only his cover for his hate / insecurity.

    As offensive as he is, he has to be allowed to speak his piece in a free society.
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    Jan 29, 2008 1:21 AM GMT
    That's pretty scary... I almost went to Stetson. Glad I decided against it. I totally support what you and your friends are hoping to do. Go for it!
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    Jan 29, 2008 1:31 AM GMT
    "I say you wait until a day that he is going to be there, get together with a bunch of your gay friends and go sit on the lawn in front of him and make out without shirts on."

    Its funny that you say because that was our initial idea haha. But we decided that our words would be more powerful than any other sort of demonstration. I plan on having my boyfriend there beside me holding my hand. The whole thing about whether it is legal or not doesn't really come into to play. The lawn on our campus was put there specifically for free speech and anyone can say anything. You could stand up there as a commie screaming about jews and nothing would happen. This guy is actually paid by some organization to tour around to various schools and do the same thing. Thats why we aren't sure if he is going to be there for this week or not. Even if he isn't we are still planning on setting up a demonstration directly where he was so people will get it. I also got a bunch of HRC stickers and pamphlets to hand out while we are out there. We are not planning on attacking him directly. The point of going out there is to show that love is greater than hatred and to show the world that we are not less than human, which apparently some think. And its great because at our meeting we had people of all sexualities would didn't agree with what this asshole was saying so I'm hoping it sends a powerful statement. I just can't sit back and let this crap happen anymore and I urge anyone else who is suffering from any kind of discrimination to do the same thing and take a stand for what is right!
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    Jan 29, 2008 1:33 AM GMT
    I think oure hanfling it perfectly. Yes he has the right to be stupid and say the homophobic stuff..ou have equal rights to respond as you detailed.
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    Jan 29, 2008 1:40 AM GMT
    That's an awful story and I'd definitely speak with the university about it. The whole right to free speech thing on your campus is interesting. At my university, rights to free speech extend only so far as another person's right to be free from discrimination.

    I'm pleased with the protest that you have decided upon. People with extreme views will never change. You'll only upset yourself and solidify his beliefs if you take him on. It's moderate every day people who really matter in a fight for equality.

    Good luck!
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    Jan 29, 2008 1:48 AM GMT
    Naturally, free speech does not mean that you can yell 'Fire' in a theatre, but Free Speech zones do give some individuals the right to hate and use hate language.

    More often than not, these folks are quite professionally trained and come from the CCF (Christian Cornerstone Fellowship) - they also play their mind games in Ann Arbor and preach hate. It is nearly impossible to get under their skin, though, and the more attention you pay to them, the louder they get. These folks really do want to engage us - they want us to come up and argue - that is why they are there. They do not want to be ignored.

    Although I don't agree with this - there was a time I did see someone get back at them. Someone had decided to mimic him - he found out his exact church and enter the Free Speech zone dressed as a priest from his church. He handed out pamplets or leaflets supporting Gay Marriage and such - basically preached the opposite. That was the only time I ever saw him leave - it really freaked him out. Of course, he did come back.
  • Timbales

    Posts: 13993

    Jan 29, 2008 1:50 AM GMT
    I don't think it's right that he has a bullhorn.
  • MikePhilPerez

    Posts: 4357

    Jan 29, 2008 1:54 AM GMT
    Teejaleo saidThe whole thing about whether it is legal or not doesn't really come into to play. The lawn on our campus was put there specifically for free speech and anyone can say anything. You could stand up there as a commie screaming about jews and nothing would happen.


    It doesn't matter what the lawn was put there for. If there is a law in statute, then that law overrides what the lawn was put there for. The law is the law.

    Anyway, I hope you put a stop to him.

    Mike
  • MSUBioNerd

    Posts: 1813

    Jan 29, 2008 2:18 AM GMT
    "It doesn't matter what the lawn was put there for. If there is a law in statute, then that law overrides what the lawn was put there for. The law is the law."

    Not always. Assuming you go to a private school, they do get some ability to deviate from state and federal laws regarding freedom of speech. Freedom of speech in this country is predicated on the first amendment statement that:

    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

    Legally, all those words matter, including the word Congress. Private entities may make rules restricting freedom of speech within their own domain. Your boss can fire you for calling him a moron, for example. At the same time, private organizations are not always subject to the limits on freedom placed on general society. Sometimes they are, sometimes they aren't; context can matter a lot. Most often, the limits on freedom of speech as enforced by the government aren't whether or not someone is preaching hatred, but whether they are inciting imminent violence. I'm allowed to stand up and proclaim that people with freckles are evil scum; I am not allowed to exhort my listeners to torture anyone they see with freckles.

    As deplorable as this man's message is, he has the right to try to spread it, just as the poster has the right to try to counter it with a message of acceptance. For the freedom to make choices to have any meaning, people must be able to make the wrong choices too.

    Just my $0.02
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    Jan 29, 2008 2:30 AM GMT
    It never ceases to amaze me how preachers teach literal interpretation of scripture but then pick and choose which scriptures they will then literally preach.

    First, Christ never condemned homosexuality. He doesn't even mention it. The majority of Christ's condemnations were expressed toward the religious people of the day and their unspiritual ways (some things never end...)

    I always enjoy using the following against those who pick which scripture to quote and ignore those that don't fit their message:

    Matthew 7:1 "Do not judge so that you will not be judged.

    Romans 2:1 Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. (This was written by the Apostle Paul, the same writer who wrote all of the new testament passages used against gay people... This is probably my favorite one to use against the fundamentalists.)

    John 8:7 So when they [the religious leaders of the day] continued asking him [Jesus] , he lifted up himself, and said unto them, "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."

    (This is the famous story where the religious leaders of the day wanted to stone the woman who had committed adultery...the punishment mandated by Mosaic law in the Old Testament and tried to corner Jesus into a seeming contradiction... compassion vs punishment. Rather than answer them the way they wanted, he pointed out that all of them had violated the Mosaic code in some way... it is virtually impossible to keep).


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    Jan 29, 2008 2:32 AM GMT
    Speaking to christian with language they understand, you need to use Bible.


    Luke 6:37 Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven

    Luke 6:41 Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?

    1 John 4:20 If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen.

    Romans 13:8 he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law.

    1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."

    John 8:7 "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."

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    Jan 29, 2008 3:14 AM GMT
    I think every college campus has one of these freaks. I think you need to avoid him and not add fuel to his fire. I would say if he is not a student, which they usually aren't, you should approach the school administration and complain that he is violating you personal rights to feel safe and welcome on campus. A free speech rule does not give people the rights to bash others. There is probably a hate speech rule at your school,

    I think fighting fire with fire only works some of the time. The same passage that deems homosexuality a sin aso deems planting a feild with two different crops, attending church when menstruating and wearing clothes of two different fabrics. However, religious zealots only use the word of the bible in the ways that forward their thoughts. they are quick to say those other declarations are no longer valid. Opportunistic. non christian crazies.
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    Jan 29, 2008 3:27 AM GMT
    I'd stick quoting religious shit. Personally though, I wouldn't think twice about people like him. He's got issues and they are certainly not for you to deal with. By you "attacking" him back, you're only proving to him that he can make you feel bad about yourself and who you are. Fuck him.
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    Jan 29, 2008 4:57 AM GMT

    Matthew 7:1 "Do not judge so that you will not be judged.

    We actually did add this quote to one of our posters and the majority of our signs use quotes from the bible. I would not have a problem with this guy if I didn't feel that he was practically provoking violence. The way that he screams and the hatred in his eyes just rubs me the wrong way. And I made the point clear to everyone while we were discusses our plans is that all we are doing is going to speaking our minds. We are not even going to be addressing him. We don't even know if he will be there when we go. The main reason I'm comfortable with doing this is because when I walked past him the few times that I did I saw a number of students rolling their eyes, laughing, or just looking upset, some hurt. I honestly feel that if I can get even 1 person to listen to me and hear what I have to say then I've done my job and maybe somehow made this world a better place. May sound dumb but I feel that even the smallest thing can do wonders in one way or another.

    I really appreciate everyones view points and comments. Keep em coming!
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    Feb 02, 2008 12:52 AM GMT
    I want to thank everyone for commenting on this and putting in their opinions. Today me and 3 of my friends stood out on the free speech lawn and spoke the word of love. We talked to anyone and everyone who walked past and let them know that a right and just God is not one of hate but one of love. Most people agreed with us, one girl apologized (for Christians as a whole) for the wrong-doing that has happened to us and that we should keep fighting for what is right. One guy said that God is a wrathful God and one that is spiteful. He also said he was the new prodigal son of God and sent to spread the new word of God. He was the only real wacko that we had. Some guys tried to show us Bible verses that related to the fact we were gay. However, the signs we held quoted various bible verses. It was interesting how some Christians accept the belief that gay's are damned to hell but can ignore the other different verses that preach love.

    Altogether it was a very successful day and we plan on doing it again. Even though "Brother Micah" was not out there we still put our message out there. Hopefully he comes back and we can stand directly across from him and compare the message of hate and the message of love.
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    Feb 02, 2008 1:18 AM GMT
    I am very impressed by you and your friends. Keep up the good fight but please be careful; psychos abound.... If it were me, I would likely be much more militant in my response - off the free speech turf of course; I am military so I guess I am brainwashed. If you do go out and do it again, here is some more scriptural ammunition to use against the false prophet Micah (who is PAID to spread hate) :

    And this first one is ironic <----> Micah 3:11 [NIV] Her leaders judge for a bribe, her priests teach for a price, and her prophets tell fortunes for money. Yet they lean upon the LORD and say, "Is not the LORD among us? No disaster will come upon us."

    And from the New testament:

    Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
    Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
    Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
    Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
    Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
    Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
    Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
    Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
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    Feb 02, 2008 1:32 AM GMT
    Teejaleo said
    "I like your Christ.
    I do not like your Christians.
    They are so unlike your Christ."
    --Gandhi


    I LOVE THAT!
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    Feb 02, 2008 1:51 AM GMT
    Teejaleothey inadvertantly cause hate to spread and lead people to perform these awful acts.

    You're right, except I don't for one second believe its "inadvertently". They know their audience, they know the mentality of their audience, they know their words incite hatred and, ultimately, violence. Many of them simply say its "God's work" and shrug it off. I say this because my father was a Baptist minister "fundie" that hated gay people more than he hated Satan... and I heard way too many discussions between himself and other "fundie" ministers about this topic.

    I applaud your activism and your bravery. It takes guts to do what you're doing. Keep doing what you're doing, remain peaceful, and fight them with their own dogma.

    By the way... try doing a Google on Brother Micah... interesting results.