Honest discussion about the differences between Liberal and Conservative Gays.

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    Jun 02, 2010 5:34 PM GMT
    Anyone up to get some honest discussion going about an issue that divides our community?
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    Jun 02, 2010 5:42 PM GMT
    Intelligent liberals and conservatives or narrow minded ones? icon_wink.gif
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    Jun 02, 2010 5:46 PM GMT
    I thought the issues that divided our community were masculine vs feminine, sexual interests, monogamy vs polygamy, and looks.
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    Jun 02, 2010 5:48 PM GMT
    ... or toe length *nods is a sage n silly fashion*
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    Jun 02, 2010 5:54 PM GMT
    paulflexes saidI thought the issues that divided our community were masculine vs feminine, sexual interests, monogamy vs polygamy, and looks.


    Well you see, all of that I acutally understand!

    Why I don't understand is gay conservatives, I for the life of me CAN NOT figure them out, so I am hoping that there were some here who were willing to discuss a couple of things.

    My need for knowledge and insight is infinite!
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    Jun 02, 2010 6:25 PM GMT
    southbeach1500 said
    DoomsDayAlpaca said
    Well you see, all of that I acutally understand!

    Why I don't understand is gay conservatives, I for the life of me CAN NOT figure them out, so I am hoping that there were some here who were willing to discuss a couple of things.

    My need for knowledge and insight is infinite!

    Gay conservatives aren't different than straight conservatives with regards to what shapes their political views.

    Gay Republicans choose to ignore the fact that the party platform, and a segment of the party, are anti-gay, and instead focus on the issues that will actually be dealt with by any Republican who gets elected (in theory, reducing government spending, reducing government regulations, just to name two).

    However, gay liberals appear to be quite different from their straight counterparts in that their political support is largely based on the fact that the "liberal" party (Democrats) gives the gays lip service every so often and throws them a bone, which translates into just enough of a carrot for the gays to support them. However, as we have just seen over the past 16 months, even with a super-majority in both houses of Congress, and control of the Presidency, the Democrats did nothing on gay marriage.



    That would be all fine and well if Republicans ACTUALLY did any of that, but they don't they do the exact opposite. On top of that Republicans tend to legislate with the bible referencing as fact. And simply calling them "Anti-Gay" does not do justice to all they do to demonize us. Equating us to rapists and pedophiles, attempting to "cure" us, endorsing violence against us, denying us basic human rights.

    Gay Marriage is ONE issue (although a big one) but when you look at all the other issues we face every step forward is STILL A STEP FORWARD.

    You may think you are being noble by "ignoring" how these people feel about, treat, and act about you but in reality you are only making the rope for your own noose.

    Coddling those that hate you will not make them hate you less, the only thing that battles ignorance is education.
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    Jun 02, 2010 6:26 PM GMT
    DoomsDayAlpaca said
    southbeach1500 said
    DoomsDayAlpaca said
    Well you see, all of that I acutally understand!

    Why I don't understand is gay conservatives, I for the life of me CAN NOT figure them out, so I am hoping that there were some here who were willing to discuss a couple of things.

    My need for knowledge and insight is infinite!

    Gay conservatives aren't different than straight conservatives with regards to what shapes their political views.

    Gay Republicans choose to ignore the fact that the party platform, and a segment of the party, are anti-gay, and instead focus on the issues that will actually be dealt with by any Republican who gets elected (in theory, reducing government spending, reducing government regulations, just to name two).

    However, gay liberals appear to be quite different from their straight counterparts in that their political support is largely based on the fact that the "liberal" party (Democrats) gives the gays lip service every so often and throws them a bone, which translates into just enough of a carrot for the gays to support them. However, as we have just seen over the past 16 months, even with a super-majority in both houses of Congress, and control of the Presidency, the Democrats did nothing on gay marriage.



    That would be all fine and well if Republicans ACTUALLY did any of that, but they don't they do the exact opposite. On top of that Republicans tend to legislate with the bible referencing as fact. And simply calling them "Anti-Gay" does not do justice to all they do to demonize us. Equating us to rapists and pedophiles, attempting to "cure" us, endorsing violence against us, denying us basic human rights.

    Gay Marriage is ONE issue (although a big one) but when you look at all the other issues we face every step forward is STILL A STEP FORWARD. Gay marriage and Equality are the goal, and every victory along the way is a step towards that.

    You may think you are being noble by "ignoring" how these people feel about, treat, and act about you but in reality you are only making the rope for your own noose.

    Coddling those that hate you will not make them hate you less, the only thing that battles ignorance is education.
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    Jun 02, 2010 6:29 PM GMT
    southbeach1500 said
    DoomsDayAlpaca said
    Well you see, all of that I acutally understand!

    Why I don't understand is gay conservatives, I for the life of me CAN NOT figure them out, so I am hoping that there were some here who were willing to discuss a couple of things.

    My need for knowledge and insight is infinite!

    Gay conservatives aren't different than straight conservatives with regards to what shapes their political views.

    Gay Republicans choose to ignore the fact that the party platform, and a segment of the party, are anti-gay, and instead focus on the issues that will actually be dealt with by any Republican who gets elected (in theory, reducing government spending, reducing government regulations, just to name two).

    However, gay liberals appear to be quite different from their straight counterparts in that their political support is largely based on the fact that the "liberal" party (Democrats) gives the gays lip service every so often and throws them a bone, which translates into just enough of a carrot for the gays to support them. However, as we have just seen over the past 16 months, even with a super-majority in both houses of Congress, and control of the Presidency, the Democrats did nothing on gay marriage.


    Based on SB's first response, the answer to Dooms' question is "no." Or, at least we don't have the right conservatives on here.

    SB suggests that being gay and conservative is a an understandable combination - despite previous "Conservative" administrations directly attacking our community - because fags would keep more of their money.

    But being gay and liberal (or Democratic Socialist in my case) is based on lip service solely related to gay issues.

    In fact, I (and I would guess most lefties) are liberals or Democratic party members because we believe not just in gay rights - in fact, in my case, marriage is NOT a priority - but also progressive taxation, Keynsian economics, maintenance or expansion of social welfare programs, environmental conservation, gun laws, peace, bringing an end to American military adventurism abroad, clean energy, etc., etc.

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    Jun 02, 2010 6:36 PM GMT
    paulflexes saidI thought the issues that divided our community were masculine vs feminine, sexual interests, monogamy vs polygamy, and looks.


    You're missing a major issue: RACISM. icon_lol.gif
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    Jun 02, 2010 6:52 PM GMT
    Christian73 said
    southbeach1500 said
    DoomsDayAlpaca said
    Well you see, all of that I acutally understand!

    Why I don't understand is gay conservatives, I for the life of me CAN NOT figure them out, so I am hoping that there were some here who were willing to discuss a couple of things.

    My need for knowledge and insight is infinite!

    Gay conservatives aren't different than straight conservatives with regards to what shapes their political views.

    Gay Republicans choose to ignore the fact that the party platform, and a segment of the party, are anti-gay, and instead focus on the issues that will actually be dealt with by any Republican who gets elected (in theory, reducing government spending, reducing government regulations, just to name two).

    However, gay liberals appear to be quite different from their straight counterparts in that their political support is largely based on the fact that the "liberal" party (Democrats) gives the gays lip service every so often and throws them a bone, which translates into just enough of a carrot for the gays to support them. However, as we have just seen over the past 16 months, even with a super-majority in both houses of Congress, and control of the Presidency, the Democrats did nothing on gay marriage.


    Based on SB's first response, the answer to Dooms' question is "no." Or, at least we don't have the right conservatives on here.

    SB suggests that being gay and conservative is a an understandable combination - despite previous "Conservative" administrations directly attacking our community - because fags would keep more of their money.

    But being gay and liberal (or Democratic Socialist in my case) is based on lip service solely related to gay issues.

    In fact, I (and I would guess most lefties) are liberals or Democratic party members because we believe not just in gay rights - in fact, in my case, marriage is NOT a priority - but also progressive taxation, Keynsian economics, maintenance or expansion of social welfare programs, environmental conservation, gun laws, peace, bringing an end to American military adventurism abroad, clean energy, etc., etc.



    Actually you are pretty right. My whole stance in life is "Human First, American Second", Flags and prejudice divide us when our Humanity should be uniting us.

    Also, I am Anti-Corporate America and feel the rich should pay more in taxes.
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    Jun 02, 2010 6:54 PM GMT
    BlkMuscleGent said
    paulflexes saidI thought the issues that divided our community were masculine vs feminine, sexual interests, monogamy vs polygamy, and looks.


    You're missing a major issue: RACISM. icon_lol.gif


    Possibly covered under looks, but I totally agree. I get tired of being contacted by men looking to live out some strange "thug rape fantasy"and the assumption that since I am black and gay I must be one of those super fem queens in fur boots or something...its always some kind of random extreme...icon_neutral.gif
  • HndsmKansan

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    Jun 02, 2010 7:38 PM GMT
    Well to begin with, this discussion is multi faceted and can be pretty deep.

    Being "conservative" doesn't imply being Republican, nor liberal, democratic.
    I'm very conservative fiscally and much more liberal on social issues. Taking whatever position doesn't imply the individual is dumb or smart.. just a difference in opinion.

    What trips the trigger of many social liberals of course is ones views on anything gay related... "liberals" tend to be more open minded, conservatives.. no.. but that isn't necessarily always the case.

    It can be broken down much more... there may be gay men that are remarkably conservative on fiscal issues and would express their own conduct as "conservative", but may "wish" liberal social changes.
    A log cabin republican may wish for "social changes" (maybe not), but politically identify with republicans on tax or other governmental issues.

    I usually just ask.. why do you think the way you do.
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    Jun 02, 2010 7:43 PM GMT
    DoomsDayAlpaca said
    BlkMuscleGent said
    paulflexes saidI thought the issues that divided our community were masculine vs feminine, sexual interests, monogamy vs polygamy, and looks.


    You're missing a major issue: RACISM. icon_lol.gif


    Possibly covered under looks, but I totally agree. I get tired of being contacted by men looking to live out some strange "thug rape fantasy"and the assumption that since I am black and gay I must be one of those super fem queens in fur boots or something...its always some kind of random extreme...icon_neutral.gif


    I just laugh so freaking hard at that. icon_lol.gificon_lol.gif
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    Jun 03, 2010 2:17 PM GMT
    Soulasphyx said
    DoomsDayAlpaca said
    BlkMuscleGent said
    paulflexes saidI thought the issues that divided our community were masculine vs feminine, sexual interests, monogamy vs polygamy, and looks.


    You're missing a major issue: RACISM. icon_lol.gif


    Possibly covered under looks, but I totally agree. I get tired of being contacted by men looking to live out some strange "thug rape fantasy"and the assumption that since I am black and gay I must be one of those super fem queens in fur boots or something...its always some kind of random extreme...icon_neutral.gif


    I just laugh so freaking hard at that. icon_lol.gificon_lol.gif


    I wish I was making that up icon_neutral.gif
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    Jun 03, 2010 2:29 PM GMT
    I think the "liberal" and "conservative" labels are not very useful to apply to gay people. [I'm not really that convinced that they're particularly useful for everyone else, either!] Worse, they are very strongly abused.

    Firstly, the terms are so deeply abused they have lost much of their meaning. What people like southbeach call "liberal" bears little relation to liberalism; he means to say "left-wing" or somesuch [god forbid anyone from using the word "socialist": it is utterly meaningless in the United States]. Many people who claim to be conservative are in fact not: people who want to rid us of government tend more towards the radical. Those who wish to impose their religious morality upon the rest of us are better thought of as authoritarian.

    Gays are by their very nature transgressive. They're inevitably outside the mainstream regardless of how they label themselves, or what they believe. They may have different views on economics, religion, foreign policy, etc. but there's no skirting the fact that they can't but be subversive.

    It is the very attempt to contort a binary choice onto people who manifestly cannot be so divided that I think is responsible for much of the frustration of these discussions.
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    Jun 03, 2010 2:44 PM GMT
    QUOTEHonest discussion about the differences between Liberal and Conservative Gays.


    There are no differences if you're talking about the general population. Both groups have similarly forgotten what it means to have your own ideas and views on topics and instead have been made into good little serfs blindly rallying behind their respective aristocratic houses.
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    Jun 03, 2010 2:47 PM GMT
    BlkMuscleGent said
    paulflexes saidI thought the issues that divided our community were masculine vs feminine, sexual interests, monogamy vs polygamy, and looks.


    You're missing a major issue: RACISM. icon_lol.gif
    Nah, that would be covered under looks. There are multiple skin colors from all races.
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    Jun 03, 2010 3:20 PM GMT
    Here's the differences, and similarities and what causes the problem.

    First off, people get way confused with these words Republican, Conservative, Liberal, Democrat. There are Republicans who are liberal, and don't believe in god, and there are Democrats who are conservative, and do believe in god, so this has always got to be remembered first. Too many people like to make grand generalizations, which does nothing but breed ignorance.

    Ok, there are a lot of gay conservative men out there, who have absolutely no problem with being gay, aren't ashamed don't try to hide it... But they don't make it a big deal, or the biggest thing about them. Why? Because they know there are much bigger more important things going on, and there is more to them than just being gay.

    Sure many of them have had hate thrown their way, sure they may have had experiences in violence. Sure they believe all people should be treated equally, you don't have to be gay, or liberal to want that, and fight for it.

    One thing that should always be remembered, sure everyone (well on here) may be gay or bi or whatever. That's a common thing, however everyone on here comes from different walks of lives, having different experiences, and issues, and values important to them. Being gay or whatever does not mean you have to be a certain way, or believe a certain way. This should always acknowledged and respected. Unfortunately it always isn't, and this is what causes problems.

    Then you have a lot of people out there who cater too much to the extremes. These are the people who always ruin shit. Extreme left, and extreme right who are both the same, and both garbage because they deal in hate. It is only weak minded ignorant people who allow others to push them to one of these sides.

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    Jun 03, 2010 4:22 PM GMT
    Rune said
    QUOTEHonest discussion about the differences between Liberal and Conservative Gays.


    There are no differences if you're talking about the general population. Both groups have similarly forgotten what it means to have your own ideas and views on topics and instead have been made into good little serfs blindly rallying behind their respective aristocratic houses.


    To be fair the only time people have their own thoughts are when it comes to civil rights.

    Historically masses tend to be ignorant and blindly support one group or the other.

    But that's human nature, you fall into a cause that falls in line with your ideals. Some pick a cause based on their own moral compass, some out of fear, and some out of money.
  • CuriousJockAZ

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    Jun 03, 2010 4:29 PM GMT
    I think it only "divides our community" among the closed-minded "my way or the highway" extremes of either liberals or conservatives. Most intelligent open-minded people are willing and/or able to accept the fact that political differences exist...and that's okay.
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    Jun 03, 2010 4:44 PM GMT
    I should try and explain my reasoning a little better.

    I'm a liberal, I am extremely open minded and very empathetic, understanding people is sort of my thing. I'm the guy that's really hard to upset because I tend to understand where people may be coming from.

    What I don't understand is gay conservatives, many that I have talked to seem to demonize gay liberals almost as much as the religious right and that bothers me. I have also heard from these same people that "we should stop rocking the boat" or "why do we need marriage rights" or "If gays whined less no one would have a problem with us". And its as if they genuinely believe these things. On top of that it seems as if EVERYTHING that came out of their mouths was negative like they had never been happy in their lives.

    I don't want to stereotype anyone (god knows I'm the last person that should be stereotyping anyone). But I was hoping some guys on here could explain to me their beliefs and maybe even their reasoning behind such and why such animosity toward liberal gays.

    I can understand why liberal gays have animosity toward conservative gays, I know in my experience and in those of others it feels like they throw all of us under the bus to further themselves personally. Like money and political favor of those that hate us comes first. Simply put, they are often viewed as "Uncle Toms" (I have still yet to find a better term icon_cry.gif although I did see someone on here use the word "House Faggots" which was funny)
  • CuriousJockAZ

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    Jun 03, 2010 4:49 PM GMT
    DoomsDayAlpaca saidI know in my experience and in those of others it feels like they throw all of us under the bus to further themselves personally. Like money and political favor of those that hate us comes first.


    This is a glaring example of generalizing. All Gay Conservatives are not cut from the same cloth any more than all Gay liberals are. This is just common sense, but some just can't seem to grasp that. It's not so black and white when it comes to people's political values.
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    Jun 03, 2010 4:50 PM GMT
    CuriousJockAZ said
    DoomsDayAlpaca saidI know in my experience and in those of others it feels like they throw all of us under the bus to further themselves personally. Like money and political favor of those that hate us comes first.


    This is a glaring example of generalizing. All Gay Conservatives are not cut from the same cloth any more than all Gay liberals are. This is just common sense, but some just can't seem to grasp that. It's not so black and white when it comes to people's political values.


    Read my post above. The Conservtive/Liberal dichotomy is nonsensical when applied to gay people.
  • OptimusMatt

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    Jun 03, 2010 4:50 PM GMT
    TigerTim saidI think the "liberal" and "conservative" labels are not very useful to apply to gay people. [I'm not really that convinced that they're particularly useful for everyone else, either!] Worse, they are very strongly abused.

    Firstly, the terms are so deeply abused they have lost much of their meaning. What people like southbeach call "liberal" bears little relation to liberalism; he means to say "left-wing" or somesuch [god forbid anyone from using the word "socialist": it is utterly meaningless in the United States]. Many people who claim to be conservative are in fact not: people who want to rid us of government tend more towards the radical. Those who wish to impose their religious morality upon the rest of us are better thought of as authoritarian.

    Gays are by their very nature transgressive. They're inevitably outside the mainstream regardless of how they label themselves, or what they believe. They may have different views on economics, religion, foreign policy, etc. but there's no skirting the fact that they can't but be subversive.

    It is the very attempt to contort a binary choice onto people who manifestly cannot be so divided that I think is responsible for much of the frustration of these discussions.


    CuriousJockAZ saidI think it only "divides our community" among the closed-minded "my way or the highway" extremes of either liberals or conservatives. Most intelligent open-minded people are willing and/or able to accept the fact that political differences exist...and that's okay.


    Probably the most insightful posts so far.

    Conservative does not equal republican people. In countries where there's more than just 1 choice the lines get blurred a bit. Canada's Conservative Party is NOT in line with America's Republican Party, and mostly because of the socialist mentality that Canada fosters. Canada's Conservatives are mostly fiscally conservative, socially...well, constrained, to be honest. But not to the same degree as the GOP. Well, imo. These debates always get messy, especially since most people hate Steven Harper, lol.

    I took a poli sci course in first year, and the one thing I remember best was my prof's description of what true conservatism is:

    Think of the country as a boat - a big ship, sailing on the waters. Been doing it for years, no real reason to doubt the established processes of boat operations. Now, your crew each has their own abilities, and their duties are dicated by their abilities. Everyone has a place, everyone plays a part but...the navagator is going to get paid more for doing their job then say, the cook. The navagator is doing a job that's more important, and should be compensated appropriately for it. But that does not negate the need for the cook, nor does that degrade the service he's performing - people need to eat.
    But while you can navagate on an empty stomach, and anyone can boil a potato, you cannot use potatos to chart your course. Eventually, without a navagtor, you'll run out of food and then won't require a cook. Hence, the navagtor's position is more necessary, and he gets more compensation for it.

    The biggest part that seems to have been left out of most neo-conservative movements is that while people SHOULD be compensated appropriately for their jobs, the rich have a duty to provide for those members of society who need assistance. Everyone, at the very least, has a duty to keep the ship afloat, and the affluent are in a position to help so they should.

    Hope that makes sense
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    Jun 03, 2010 4:57 PM GMT
    Speaking strictly as an observer, the difference between American gay liberals and gay conservatives, seems to come down to how wealthy they are. Wealthier guys tend to be conservative / Republican. Whereas Democrats are more focused on the middle class.

    Once people choose a side, they then find ways to justify whatever that political party's stand is on any given issue. People like being consistent, so they're not going to change political sides just to support a few gay issues.