Does Satan Exist?

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    Jun 03, 2010 12:48 PM GMT
    After being struck with the infirmity of boredom induced insomnia, I spent some of the night watching ABC's nightline debate special on the existence of Satan. They have quite a few interesting panelists, of which the most recognizable is Deepak Chopra. It's a very interesting watch and does bring to light a lot of questions concerning religion, and generally ones life views. I encourage ya'll to watch it, I am quite surprised by the Bishop's viewpoints in it. Nevertheless, below is the first part.
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    Jun 03, 2010 1:56 PM GMT
    Satan was invented to explain why bad things happen to good people and why good things happen to bad people... and why good people sometimes do bad things.

    He's also good for scaring people... and fear is what keeps religious people religious.
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    Jun 03, 2010 2:03 PM GMT
    Yes, and his name is southbeach1500.
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    Jun 03, 2010 2:07 PM GMT
    conscienti1984 saidSatan was invented to explain why bad things happen to good people and why good things happen to bad people... and why good people sometimes do bad things.

    He's also good for scaring people... and fear is what keeps religious people religious.


    Bingo!

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    Jun 03, 2010 2:10 PM GMT
    As well, an invention to absolve culpability, 'the devil made me do it.'

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    Jun 03, 2010 2:12 PM GMT
    Satan (who actually became synonymous with the Christian arch-devil, but who in fact is different from Lucifer and from Beelzebub, Mephistopholes, Ba-al, and the rest) began in the Jewish faith as Shaitan- the angel of accusation. In the ancient Jewish religion, there wasn't a hell, and there weren't demons in the sense that we view them. (instead, all souls went to Sheol after death, which was more like limbo or Hades- pretty neutral.) there were Klipoth, which were like pesky imps and fragments of evil men's souls, but still not full-fledged demons. See, this is interesting:

    the jews believed that there was One God, not many, and that every other spirit (many worshiped as gods by other religions) fell under the One God's domain. there was nothing outside of the body of God- he was Everything. if something good happened to you, it was god's grace, but if something bad happened to you, then it was God's wrath for some impiety you engaged in. GOD WAS AS "EVIL" AS HE WAS "GOOD," and was largely an encapsulation of the force of nature and all things. angels were subdivisions of god's nature- delegations of his infinite offices basically, and a part of him. Shaitan was that limb of god responsible for accusation, connected to punishment. but rather than viewing this as "evil," the ancients recognized that it was a necessary part of existence, and therefor righteous, though never desirable lol.

    THEN, the church evolved, and decided that god was purely "GOOD." but this presented a problem- if you define "GOOD" as that which is pleasurable and desirable to mankind, then how could a perfectly "GOOD" god allow for suffering or cause tragedy? a scape-goat was needed. so the early church took every "negative" angel of the jews, and balled them up into one arch-devil of the embodiment of all "EVIL," that is- everything man doesn't like. this character was biopsied from God and set in opposition to God as its polar opposite. ESSENTIALLY therefor, christianity has not one god, but TWO. its kinda ludicrous to polarize all of existence and set them in opposition to each other, then declare the whole schizo mess a "monotheism"..... and THEN they declare that the "GOOD" side is stronger than the "EVIL", but if there were such an imbalance in nature, the one would quickly cancel out and overcome the other, leaving only the excess of the greater force. so the whole thing is pretty stupid lol.

    and THEN in the middle ages, as christianity grew in power and sought to convert the pagans all around them, they took the old gods of the surrounding religions and bastardized and villanized them through propaganda, balling them all up with their "Devil" concept. hence the horns (the celtic horned god, Pan, etc), and all the rest.


    long story short- there technically is no Devil in the christian conception, but as with so much else that man molds fabricates from what already exists, enough belief in it will empower it for YOU.
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    Jun 03, 2010 2:35 PM GMT
    No. Our problems are either of our own making, or ill-luck.
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    Jun 03, 2010 2:43 PM GMT
    oh and another connected train of thought- whether you view the "devil" as real or a living metaphor (or less than)- the idea of Lucifer (the Light Bringer) was connected to the morning star/evening star because its the first star in the evening and the last star of the dawn- which the ancients named Venus. Goddess of sex, beauty, love. things the church distrusted enormously. Lucifer fell, in the story, partially because he was too proud to bow to man (love and sex often seeks to rule us, rather than being politely complacent to our wishes), but also because he sought to give man more autonomy than god was willing. Lucifer saw enormous potential in man that god was stunting by not letting man partake of the trees of knowledge and of life. so he talked us into pursuing Illumination via the forbidden fruit- making us half-divine; but we never got to eat from the other tree and become immortal because god intervened before we "ate of both trees and became like us" (quoth god- genesis). therefor, Lucifer becomes like the greek Prometheus- light bearer and thief of the forbidden fire of Illumination from heaven for man's benefit. many of the early "war and fall from heaven" stories list off several major generals (like Azazaoth) of the rebel army who taught man art, science, medicines, writing, weapon smithing, and cloth weaving when they crashed to earth. the serpent is a universal symbol from culture to culture of creative, generative, sexual energy- the Kundalini spiral force of Yoga winding its way up from our root to crown, the Serpent of Light in Kabblah climbing up the tree of life from root to crown, the Uraus serpent of ancient egypt poised upon Pharaoh's brow- a symbol of his spiritual power and illumination, the dragons of asia embodying the heavenly forces of nature and highest human potential, the feathered serpents of south america symbolizing the same....

    from this bent, Satan becomes the greatest humanitarian religion's ever fabricated. he's rooting for us to reach our full potential (which is limitless) and become gods, while the creator just wants us to sing his praises and cower our whole lives. it has nothing to do with "good" and "evil" which are such subjective, circumstantial concepts- it has to do with freedom/sovereignty vs servitude/bondage. this view of Satan has him right here with us, struggling, railing against 'the man as we're all naturally driven to do,' -not remote and far off like an kid with a magnifying glass- striving to regain his own seat of grace just as we are, pushing us ever to more- to succeed and exceed, learn, grow, evolve; all of which are unlawful to God. he "gets" our pain and struggles better than anyone else in the pantheons of deities- even Jesus was "perfect" and never really suffered- he never suffered the agony of mortal love, of true insecurity, or anything really human- the physical pain of his death was hardly equivalent to a lifetime of angst and fear of death...... he KNEW he was god, and wouldn't stay dead for long- he had CERTAINTY, not faith, and therefor was never exposed to the human condition in its fullest sense. if you KNEW that you'd wake up again in a few days, perfectly healed and ready for eternal kingship, crucifixion would only be as annoying as a root canal. Satan, from this perspective, is as uncertain about the future as we are, has the same aspirations for the highest, and wishes us the same enlightenment- he want's a cosmic democracy, not a strict kingship. He is the spirit embodying human ambition, and is behind every scientific and technological breakthrough we've ever had.

    its fun to see things from new angles :p
  • HotCoach

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    Jun 03, 2010 3:03 PM GMT
    If god doesn't exist why would "Satan"?
  • BlackBeltGuy

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    Jun 03, 2010 3:19 PM GMT
    no he does not exisit but fairytails do. there is so much fear around a self imagined asshole like that.

    no he doesn't exist, evil energy exists but so does the good energy. nature must be balanced and can be evil and beautiful, its the way it goes.
    when you get a bad thought in your head it never Lucifer or Satan.
    and actually, Lucifer wasn't such a bad angel after all.

    no satan. no lucifer. just bad energy
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    Jun 03, 2010 3:23 PM GMT
    KARATE1974 saidno he does not exisit but fairytails do. there is so much fear around a self imagined asshole like that.

    no he doesn't exist, evil energy exists but so does the good energy. nature must be balanced and can be evil and beautiful, its the way it goes.
    when you get a bad thought in your head it never Lucifer or Satan.
    and actually, Lucifer wasn't such a bad angel after all.

    no satan. no lucifer. just bad energy



    In that case, yes it has addressed me. On this very site. I'm not naming names.

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    Jun 03, 2010 3:25 PM GMT
    KARATE1974 saidno he does not exisit but fairytails do. there is so much fear around a self imagined asshole like that.

    no he doesn't exist, evil energy exists but so does the good energy. nature must be balanced and can be evil and beautiful, its the way it goes.
    when you get a bad thought in your head it never Lucifer or Satan.
    and actually, Lucifer wasn't such a bad angel after all.

    no satan. no lucifer. just bad energy



    well they exist to the extent that they're metaphorical symbols of that "bad energy" though i don't believe there's such a thing as "bad" or "good" energy, any more than i believe in "good" or "evil." is there good or bad electricity? good or bad electromagnetic radiation? gravitational force? matter? the energies that comprise Everything are neutral- its what we do with them that determines if they're destructive, generative, or transitional; "good" and "bad" are just human perspectives and opinions.

    its "good" if you like it and approve, its "bad" if you don't. and the christian Satan symbolizes everything we don't like in ourselves.
  • BlackBeltGuy

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    Jun 03, 2010 3:28 PM GMT
    czarodziej said
    KARATE1974 saidno he does not exisit but fairytails do. there is so much fear around a self imagined asshole like that.

    no he doesn't exist, evil energy exists but so does the good energy. nature must be balanced and can be evil and beautiful, its the way it goes.
    when you get a bad thought in your head it never Lucifer or Satan.
    and actually, Lucifer wasn't such a bad angel after all.

    no satan. no lucifer. just bad energy



    well they exist to the extent that they're metaphorical symbols of that "bad energy" though i don't believe there's such a thing as "bad" or "good" energy, any more than i believe in "good" or "evil." is there good or bad electricity? good or bad electromagnetic radiation? gravitational force? matter? the energies that comprise Everything are neutral- its what we do with them that determines if they're destructive, generative, or transitional; "good" and "bad" are just human perspectives and opinions.

    its "good" if you like it and approve, its "bad" if you don't. and the christian Satan symbolizes everything we don't like in ourselves.


    its not about approval either. its our shadow work. I deal with this type of work every day and actually chopra wins this opening arguement. we have fear based religions, which is so sad.
    again its energy that takes form to a certain person, some might see it as good some might as bad
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    Jun 03, 2010 3:34 PM GMT
    I hope you didn't expect to get any kind of honest, respectful, and serious answer or discussion, with a lot of the clowns I'm seeing commenting lol.

    I'm not saying one shouldn't ask questions about spirituality on here, there is a section for it, and there are many guys on here who do believe in god (whichever that may be). However these topics usually turn ugly, because there are a lot of intolerant, childish and ignorant people on here lol.

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    Jun 03, 2010 3:36 PM GMT
    IHG84 saidI hope you didn't expect to get any kind of honest, respectful, and serious answer or discussion, with a lot of the clowns I'm seeing commenting lol.

    I'm not saying one shouldn't ask questions about spirituality on here, there is a section for it, and there are many guys on here who do believe in god (whichever that may be). However these topics usually turn ugly, because there are a lot of intolerant, childish and ignorant people on here lol.



    i'm being serious...
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    Jun 03, 2010 3:37 PM GMT
    reppaT saidYes, and his name is southbeach1500.


    hahahahaha aww southbeach
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    Jun 03, 2010 3:38 PM GMT
    IHG84 saidI hope you didn't expect to get any kind of honest, respectful, and serious answer or discussion, with a lot of the clowns I'm seeing commenting lol.

    I'm not saying one shouldn't ask questions about spirituality on here, there is a section for it, and there are many guys on here who do believe in god (whichever that may be). However these topics usually turn ugly, because there are a lot of intolerant, childish and ignorant people on here lol.




    Present company excluded, or course.
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    Jun 03, 2010 3:39 PM GMT
    I'm more surprised this kinda of bs makes it to ABC... what the hell?

    Come on... ABC... not Alabama public access.... wtf
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    Jun 03, 2010 3:39 PM GMT
    czarodziej said
    IHG84 saidI hope you didn't expect to get any kind of honest, respectful, and serious answer or discussion, with a lot of the clowns I'm seeing commenting lol.

    I'm not saying one shouldn't ask questions about spirituality on here, there is a section for it, and there are many guys on here who do believe in god (whichever that may be). However these topics usually turn ugly, because there are a lot of intolerant, childish and ignorant people on here lol.



    i'm being serious...


    Oh I didn't doubt you being serious in your question at all, and its not a silly question in the slightest bit. I'm just saying you're probably not going to get a serious, honest, or respectful answer because of some of the clowns on here lol. One person will give you an honest answer, and another will come out saying something ignorant and foolish, and then the shit storm begins lol

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    Jun 03, 2010 3:42 PM GMT
    its not my forum lol- but my responses were serious- no one's even mentioning them lol. tried to give a bit of context for the question
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    Jun 03, 2010 3:48 PM GMT
    Well, czar, I for one read your info on this and enjoyed it very much. Nothing like a little ammo to battle the fundie freaks when they start quoting scripture ad nauseum.

    -Doug
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    Jun 03, 2010 3:49 PM GMT
    czarodziej saidits not my forum lol- but my responses were serious- no one's even mentioning them lol. tried to give a bit of context for the question


    You're not in the wrong at all bro, just basically warning ya of what to expect when people mention anything about anything that has to do with God, or the devil lol.

    As for your answer from someone who does believe in god (I'm a Christian).

    Yes I believe Satan does exist. In my faith the world as its become, and becoming, is supposed to be the answer to Satan's question he gave god, when he challenged him questioning why we (us man), should worship god, and not him (Satan). This is what the whole Adam and Eve story was about too, the test.

    You learn about what Satan is all about, and you look at the world today, and how it seems to become, yea I believe he exist.

  • Abc123456

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    Jun 03, 2010 3:50 PM GMT
    Yeah... and I have a pet dragon and a bag of pixie dust for those slow days at work.

    Good clip.
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    Jun 03, 2010 3:53 PM GMT
    IHG84 said
    czarodziej saidits not my forum lol- but my responses were serious- no one's even mentioning them lol. tried to give a bit of context for the question


    You're not in the wrong at all bro, just basically warning ya of what to expect when people mention anything about anything that has to do with God, or the devil lol.

    As for your answer from someone who does believe in god (I'm a Christian).

    Yes I believe Satan does exist. In my faith the world as its become, and becoming, is supposed to be the answer to Satan's question he gave god, when he challenged him questioning why we (us man), should worship god, and not him (Satan). This is what the whole Adam and Eve story was about too, the test.

    You learn about what Satan is all about, and you look at the world today, and how it seems to become, yea I believe he exist.



    good point- though like i said i don't believe god and the devil are juxtaposed. but if i had to choose between servitude/stasis or sovereignty/development i choose the latter- i think that the countries that are most pious are the ones most poor and violent and uneducated, while the countries that are the most advanced and healthy are those that could be said to side more with Lucifer's ideals and aims. i mean, modern medicine is purely satanic if you're a strict biblical christian- and sure enough, there ARE crazies out there who deny it for their children in favor of pious prayer.
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    Jun 03, 2010 4:00 PM GMT
    IHG84 said
    czarodziej saidits not my forum lol- but my responses were serious- no one's even mentioning them lol. tried to give a bit of context for the question


    You're not in the wrong at all bro, just basically warning ya of what to expect when people mention anything about anything that has to do with God, or the devil lol.

    As for your answer from someone who does believe in god (I'm a Christian).

    Yes I believe Satan does exist. In my faith the world as its become, and becoming, is supposed to be the answer to Satan's question he gave god, when he challenged him questioning why we (us man), should worship god, and not him (Satan). This is what the whole Adam and Eve story was about too, the test.

    You learn about what Satan is all about, and you look at the world today, and how it seems to become, yea I believe he exist.




    You're suggesting the world today is more evil than the world of the past. I don't agree. It was simpler then, maybe, but the same evil that lurks in humans of today was there in the past... it just seems to us that the world is darker now because technology, communication, and population explosions makes life more complicated. That story was a metaphor used to teach people about right and wrong, not to warn them of impending doom.

    Just my opinion.