Free Gaza from what truly afflicts it: Hamas

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    Jun 03, 2010 4:56 PM GMT
    Take a few minutes to view these two 2-minute videos:




    Note that while it is true that Hamas received a majority of the vote in the last PARLIAMENTARY elections, unable to form a coalition government and despite the Mecca Agreement reached with the Palestinian Authority, Hamas seized power (the exectuve and judicial branches) in a violent coup. No further elections are planned (a March 2010 PCPSR poll indicates that only 28% would vote for Hamas in legislative elections) and restrictions on personal freedoms, which were already pretty bad under the PA, became even worse.

    So please, no one regurgitate the spam propaganda about Hamas being "democratically elected". Only 28% (different question in that March poll, same percentage) believe that the Hamas government is legitimate.

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    Jun 04, 2010 2:50 AM GMT
    http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177441
    4 Kassam rockets hit Israel
    Four Kassam rockets were launched into Israel Thursday night. The rockets set off warning sirens in Sderot and Ashkelon, and exploded in open areas.
    ...On Tuesday three Islamic Jihad operatives were killed in an IAF airstrike in northern Gaza after firing two rockets into southern Israel. The rockets caused no injuries.
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    Jun 04, 2010 6:45 AM GMT
    I think we should invade Gaza, Lebanon, and Syria, round up ALL the Hamas and other related terrorists, throw them into prison, and then give the rest of the Palestinians equal rights and ability to move freely from Gaza to the West Bank without any harassment.
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    Jun 04, 2010 2:22 PM GMT
    http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=177444
    Hamas raids, closes NGO offices
    By Khaled Abu Toameh

    Outrage in Gaza after group confiscates files, equipment.

    Hamas’s security forces on Monday and Tuesday raided the offices of several non-governmental organizations in the Gaza Strip and confiscated equipment and furniture, drawing sharp condemnations from human rights groups.

    The sources said the raids were carried out by agents belonging to Hamas’s Internal Security apparatus without court permission.

    Hamas spokesmen in the Gaza Strip on Thursday refused to comment on the raids.

    After conducting a thorough search of the offices of the organizations, the Hamas security agents confiscated files, documents, computers, fax machines and other equipment.

    The agents also informed the managers and workers of the organizations of the Hamas government’s decision to close them down indefinitely.

    The Gaza-based Al-Mezan Center for Human Rights expressed outrage over the raids and called on the Hamas government to open an investigation.

    "Al-Mezan condemns these assaults against NGOs and views them with much concern,” the center said. “Al-Mezan calls on the Gaza government to initiate an investigation into these acts, ensure full respect of the law, and protect the right of NGOs to work freely.”

    According to affidavits given to Al-Mezan by workers at the NGOs, on Monday morning Hamas security agents stormed the NGOs offices in the southern Gaza Strip town of Rafah.

    The NGOs raid on Monday were: Sharik Youth Institution, Bonat Al-Mustaqbal (Future Builders) Society, the South Society for Women’s Health, and the Women and Children Society.

    The security agents searched the offices and made a list of the equipment and other belongings.

    Later in the day, Hamas policemen returned to the offices of the same NGOs and called the directors by telephone. They confiscated most of the equipment and other items, including computers, faxes, cameras, documents and reports, in addition to the keys to their doors. The security agents informed the directors that their organizations were closed. They did not provide any reasons behind this decision.

    The following day [Tuesday], Hamas security men stormed the offices of another two NGOs, the Palestinian Mini Parliament and the National Reconciliation Committee. They confiscated the keys to their doors and ordered them closed.

    "Al-Mezan views these assaults on NGOs and the way they were carried out without any respect for the law with great concern,” the center said in a statement. “Al-Mezan condemns them and questions their timing, which comes amid the outcry against the Israeli crime against the Freedom Flotilla.”

    It said such assaults on NGOs “violate constitutional rights under Article 26 of the amended Palestinian Basic Law, which provides Palestinians the right to participate in public life, particularly by forming syndicates, unions, institutions, clubs and popular institutions.”

    The UN’s special coordinator for the Middle East peace process, Robert Serry, expressed deep concern over the raids and closure of the NGO offices.

    “This targeting of NGOs, including UN partner organizations, is unacceptable, violating accepted norms of a free society and harming the Palestinian people,” he said. “The de facto [Hamas] authorities must cease such repressive steps and allow the re-opening of these civil society institutions without delay.”

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    Jun 05, 2010 1:49 PM GMT
    http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=177512

    'Turkey has embraced Iran, Hamas'

    A top Israel envoy criticized Turkey’s outreach to terror groups Friday, hours after Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan was quoted as saying Hamas is not a terrorist organization.

    “Turkey has embraced the leaders of Iran and Hamas, all of whom called for Israel’s destruction,” declared Israeli ambassador to the US Michael Oren.

    “Our policy has not changed but Turkey’s policy has changed, very much, over the last few years,” he said. “Under a different government with an Islamic orientation, Turkey has turned away from the West.”

    ...Erdogan said Hamas, the legitimate winner of the Palestinian elections, was fighting for its land. "You are always talking about democracy. You’ll never let Hamas rule. What kind of democracy is this?” he was quoted as saying by Turkish daily Hurriyet, apparently addressing the Israeli leadership.

    ----

    Obviously the Turkish PM isn't ignorant of the violent Hamas coup or that they reject further elections. He isn't really talking to the Israeli leadership but to his own people with the usual "never mind what problems we have at home, I'm beating up Israel - so vote for me" approach. He is just hating and lying for his own cause.
  • roadbikeRob

    Posts: 14389

    Jun 05, 2010 4:52 PM GMT
    Would you Israelis be more than willing to grant the people of Gaza, Lebanon, and Syria equal rights as Israeli citizens or are you advocating occupation and fierce oppression of the Arabic peoples of these regions just to show your so-called moral superiority.
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    Jun 05, 2010 7:33 PM GMT
    roadbikerob> Would you Israelis be more than willing to grant the people of Gaza, Lebanon, and Syria equal rights as Israeli citizens

    Why should the people you mention be Israeli citizens?
    It's like asking if Mexicans (in Mexico) should be equal US citizens.

    Do you think Hamas is good for Gaza and its people?
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    Jun 06, 2010 4:22 AM GMT
    Continued from the flotilla topic:

    tokugawa> C4 leaves out that President Abbas' term as president has also expired, and Abbas refuses to hold further elections.

    Never mind that Abbas can't hold elections in Gaza without the cooperation of Hamas (which rejects elections - they know they'll lose), but Abbas extended his term in accordance with the Palestinian Basic Law.

    Still, there is no comparison. Abbas is the democratically elected president, and as such it is within his power to fire the Prime Minister - as he did.


    tokugawa> C4 leaves out that that Abbas' government planned the violent overthrow of the Gaza government

    A conspiracy theory with no evidence to support it.

    The lack of military preparedness of Fatah troops when they were attacked makes this theory pretty batty - a point tokugawa inadvertantly admits when he later says: "Abbas' forces did not put up much of a fight in Gaza".

    The fact that it was within Abbas' powers to fire the P.M. precludes the need for a "violent overthrow" (unless Hamas was going to violently oppose that).


    tokugawa> President Abbas' rule of the West Bank is a totalitarian dictatorship.

    Yup, you are correct - but conditions there are nowhere near as bad as in Gaza under Hamas (a point made by the Palestinian Arabs themselves).


    tokugawa> Hamas early growth was supported by Israel to be a non-secular Islamic opposition to the secular PLO. The Hamas election victory could not have happened without Israel's previous support.

    Total nonsense. Israel supported Islamic charities who were not involved in violence, who ran orphanages and schools (something the PLO terrorists didn't bother with). This was more than 20 years prior to the election and had nothing whatsoever to do with it.


    Hamas did not win the Presidential election (the executive branch), it won a majority of parliamentary seats (the legislative branch). There was no need for a "planned coup" given that Hamas was unable to put together a coalition. After the Mecca Agreement, Hamas illegally seized power (all branches of government) in a violent coup. While tokugawa vapidly pays lip service to "democratically elected government", he neglects to point out that Hamas refuses to hold further elections, routed the opposition (dropping people off roof-tops) and runs a totalitarian dictatorship that lacks an independent judiciary or free press.

    tokugawa> There is no need to put together a legislative coalition

    You neglect that the directly elected Presidency was held by Fatah, not Hamas.

    And that Hamas had been unable to form a government/cabinet.

    You neglect that Hamas began the violence which led to the Mecca Agreement, forming a national unity government. (Granting Hamas 9 of 19 seats.)

    You neglect that Hamas then siezed power in a violent and bloody coup.

    You neglect that Hamas has further curtailed the judiciary and press.

    You neglect that Hamas has rejected calls for further elections.

    Yet you want to pretend that these murderous terrorists are the "democratically elected" government?

    You neglect that only 28% of the Palestinian Arabs support Hamas.
    (Making you an extremist like them.)

    Do you believe that Hamas is good for the people of Gaza?
  • tokugawa

    Posts: 945

    Jun 18, 2010 10:36 PM GMT
    Caesarea4 saidtokugawa> C4 leaves out that that Abbas' government planned the violent overthrow of the Gaza government

    A conspiracy theory with no evidence to support it.


    Wrong again, as usual!

    "After failing to anticipate Hamas’s victory over Fatah in the 2006 Palestinian election, the White House cooked up yet another scandalously covert and self-defeating Middle East debacle: part Iran-contra, part Bay of Pigs. With confidential documents, corroborated by outraged former and current U.S. officials, the author reveals how President Bush, Condoleezza Rice, and Deputy National-Security Adviser Elliott Abrams backed an armed force under Fatah strongman Muhammad Dahlan, touching off a bloody civil war in Gaza and leaving Hamas stronger than ever."

    http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/04/gaza200804/
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    Jun 19, 2010 1:33 AM GMT
    As usual, tokugawa has no answers to 95% of what is said.
    Let's see how he did on the ONE point he could respond to:

    tokugawa> C4 leaves out that that Abbas' government planned the violent overthrow of the Gaza government

    C4> A conspiracy theory with no evidence to support it.

    tokugawa> [quotes conspiracy theory... but no evidence. And can't address the rest of what I already said which he simply omitted]

    T1. The lack of military preparedness of Fatah troops when they were attacked makes this theory pretty batty - a point tokugawa inadvertantly admits when he later says: "Abbas' forces did not put up much of a fight in Gaza".

    T2. The fact that it was within Abbas' powers to fire the P.M. precludes the need for a "violent overthrow" (unless Hamas was going to violently oppose that).



    So let's see what tokugwa couldn't contest:

    tokugawa> C4 leaves out that President Abbas' term as president has also expired, and Abbas refuses to hold further elections.

    T3. Never mind that Abbas can't hold elections in Gaza without the cooperation of Hamas (which rejects elections - they know they'll lose), but Abbas extended his term in accordance with the Palestinian Basic Law.

    T4. Still, there is no comparison. Abbas is the democratically elected president, and as such it is within his power to fire the Prime Minister - as he did.


    tokugawa> [silence]



    tokugawa> President Abbas' rule of the West Bank is a totalitarian dictatorship.

    Yup, you are correct - but:

    T5. Conditions there are nowhere near as bad as in Gaza under Hamas (a point made by the Palestinian Arabs themselves).

    tokugawa> [doesn't care because he can't use that against Israel]


    tokugawa> Hamas early growth was supported by Israel to be a non-secular Islamic opposition to the secular PLO. The Hamas election victory could not have happened without Israel's previous support.

    Total nonsense.

    T6. Israel supported Islamic charities who were not involved in violence, who ran orphanages and schools (something the PLO terrorists didn't bother with). This was more than 20 years prior to the election and had nothing whatsoever to do with it.

    tokugawa> [rats, his lies were foiled again!]


    T7. Hamas did not win the Presidential election (the executive branch), it won a majority of parliamentary seats (the legislative branch). There was no need for a "planned coup" given that Hamas was unable to put together a coalition. After the Mecca Agreement, Hamas illegally seized power (all branches of government) in a violent coup. While tokugawa vapidly pays lip service to "democratically elected government", he neglects to point out that Hamas refuses to hold further elections, routed the opposition (dropping people off roof-tops) and runs a totalitarian dictatorship that lacks an independent judiciary or free press.

    tokugawa> There is no need to put together a legislative coalition

    T8. You neglect that the directly elected Presidency was held by Fatah, not Hamas.

    T9. And that Hamas had been unable to form a government/cabinet.

    T10. You neglect that Hamas began the violence which led to the Mecca Agreement, forming a national unity government. (Granting Hamas 9 of 19 seats.)

    T11. You neglect that Hamas then siezed power in a violent and bloody coup.

    T12. You neglect that Hamas has further curtailed the judiciary and press.

    T13. You neglect that Hamas has rejected calls for further elections.

    T14. Yet you want to pretend that these murderous terrorists are the "democratically elected" government?

    T15. You neglect that only 28% of the Palestinian Arabs support Hamas.
    (Making you an extremist like them.)


    tokugawa> [cat got his typewriter?]


    T16. Four Kassam rockets were launched into Israel Thursday night. ...On Tuesday three Islamic Jihad operatives were killed in an IAF airstrike in northern Gaza after firing two rockets into southern Israel

    tokugawa> [no comment]


    T17. Hamas raids, closes NGO offices

    tokugawa> [doesn't seem to care]


    T18. Do you believe that Hamas is good for the people of Gaza?

    tokugawa> [won't answer]


    What is wrong with tokugwa?
    What, other than hate of Israel uber alles, could possibly explain his position?

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    Jun 19, 2010 5:12 AM GMT
    Perhaps if Israel would stop electing crazed right wingers, they might be able to broker some sort of peace deal. As the descendant of an occupied people, I am probably more sympathetic to the plight of Palestinians.
  • tokugawa

    Posts: 945

    Jun 19, 2010 5:17 AM GMT
    Caesarea4 said … tokugawa> C4 leaves out that that Abbas' government planned the violent overthrow of the Gaza government

    C4> A conspiracy theory with no evidence to support it.

    tokugawa> [quotes conspiracy theory... but no evidence.


    Another use by C4 of the “deny the obvious” technique. I did provide evidence, C4 deleted it and pretends that there is “no evidence.”

    The evidence:

    http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/04/gaza200804

    The Gaza Bombshell by David Rose
    Vanity Fair, April 2008

    "After failing to anticipate Hamas’s victory over Fatah in the 2006 Palestinian election, the White House cooked up yet another scandalously covert and self-defeating Middle East debacle: part Iran-contra, part Bay of Pigs. With confidential documents, corroborated by outraged former and current U.S. officials, the author reveals how President Bush, Condoleezza Rice, and Deputy National-Security Adviser Elliott Abrams backed an armed force under Fatah strongman Muhammad Dahlan, touching off a bloody civil war in Gaza and leaving Hamas stronger than ever."


    You may dispute my source and its evidence, but you are 100% wrong to state there is no evidence. Is your contention that there is no publication called "Vanity Fair," and I just made up the above quote? Did I make up the Vanity Fair website, too?

    This is just another example of your denial of the obvious, like your lie that Benny Morris' never used the words "rapes" and "mutilations" in his book "The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949" when referring to the capture of Deir Yassin by Zionist terrorists.

    Your failure to acknowledge your errors lowers your credibility even more than your insults and name calling. I freely admit that I am not perfect, and that I sometimes make errors. I will admit my errors, something that you apparently never do.
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    Jun 19, 2010 3:08 PM GMT
    tokugawa> your lie that Benny Morris' never used the words "rapes" and "mutilations"

    LOL. A new diversion? As you've been corrected at least 10 times, I said he didn't "document" any rapes.
    Why do you persist with your error rather than admit it?
    (And why do you dredge it up in topic after topic when you were pwned in the original discussion?
    What does it tell us about you that you have to misrepresent what I said to "prove" that I lied?)


    tokugawa> I freely admit that I am not perfect, and that I sometimes make errors

    Above we saw that isn't true. You pretend that you're off by a penny when in reality you're in the wrong ball-park.


    But let's get back to what we are discussing, eh?

    tokugawa> You may dispute my source and its evidence

    That there is only one source for the "evidence" is itself curious. It's like people who say: "read this ONE book" and you'll find out the truth. In this case, it's not even a book, it's... Vanity Fair (which has beautiful people on the cover but isn't exactly known for its in-depth reporting).

    Let's take a look at the "evidence" in its entirety, as you just presented it:

    || confidential documents, corroborated by outraged former and current U.S. officials, the author reveals....

    I think this can safely be summarized as: "conspiracy theory".
    There is no real evidence presented.

    Now let's look at the counter-evidence - which you yourself posted:

    T1. The lack of military preparedness of Fatah troops when they were attacked makes this theory pretty batty - a point tokugawa inadvertantly admits when he later says: "Abbas' forces did not put up much of a fight in Gaza".

    T2. The fact that it was within Abbas' constitutional powers to fire the P.M. precludes the need for a "violent overthrow" (unless Hamas was going to violently oppose that).


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    Jun 19, 2010 3:09 PM GMT
    Christian73> As the descendant of an occupied people, I am probably more sympathetic to the plight of Palestinians.

    Thanks for sharing your prejudice. While you are too young to remember the world before 1967, I can't help but wonder why there was no such sympathy (from your parent(s), who also descended from an occupied people?) for the "Palestinians" between 1948-1967 (when no one, including the Palestinian Arabs, considered Egypt and Jordan to be "occupying" Gaza, Judea, Samaria and eastern Jerusalem. Had not ALL the Jews living here been killed (or fled), I suppose they would have been occupied and now your sympathies would be with the "settlers"?

    It's also a bit strange given that the Arab empires were themselves invaders who conquered the region, occupied and colonized it.
    (They ruled from afar, from Mecca, Damascus, Baghdad and Cairo; there was never an Arab capital in Jerusalem.)

    Getting back to this topic, surely you don't mean that your sympathies are with Hamas, right?


    Christian73> Perhaps if Israel would stop electing crazed right wingers, they might be able to broker some sort of peace deal.

    It was Arafat who claimed there is no difference between (Labor/Left) Barak and (Right-come-center) Sharon after he torched the olive branch at Davos in 2001.

    Currently (right-of-center, not "crazed right winger") Netanyahu is open to direct negotiations, but Abbas insists only on slow, cumbersome, indirect "proximity talks".

    You also seem to ignore decades of the official Arab policy being the 3 NOs issued by the Arab League in 1949: NO negotiations, NO recognition, NO peace with Israel. This first started changing in the mid-to-late 1970s (Sadat and Carter's Camp David leading to peace between Israel and Egypt) and then in the early 1990s (when Arafat, politically weak because he alienated his Gulf supporters by siding with Saddam vs. Kuwait, feigned peace). When Jordan stepped-forward and wanted to finally make a formal peace (under the table, relations had been cordial for decades but King Hussein couldn't make it official fearing the reaction of the Arab world), Israel was right there with him.

    Consider that in the mid-to-late 1970s the government was led by Menachem Begin, perhaps Israel's most right-wing Prime Minister ever. Yet the day Sadat called and said he was willing to give peace a chance, he found a willing, able, and ready peace partner in Jerusalem.

    During the 1991 Madrid peace conference (which laid the groundwork for the better known Oslo Accords of 1993), Israel's prime minister was the right-wing Yitzhak Shamir. Leftist Yitzhak Rabin was elected in 1992.

    So what we see is basically the opposite of what you posit. When Israel is attacked, they elect right wingers (e.g. Sharon in 2001). When there is an opening for peace from the Arab side, even those right-wingers take it... and then Israelis elect left wingers (until some Arabs derail the peace process and hostilities resume).
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    Jun 19, 2010 5:07 PM GMT
    Christian73 saidPerhaps if Israel would stop electing crazed right wingers, they might be able to broker some sort of peace deal. As the descendant of an occupied people, I am probably more sympathetic to the plight of Palestinians.

    Um, "Palestine" is literally run by terrorists and you're bothered by Israel's "crazed right wingers"? icon_confused.gif They could and should be more aggressive than they are right now. It's a shame people just let the biased media make their minds up for them and forget Israel is not dealing with level headed people. I mean, you do realize Arabs who are extreme enough to be/support terrorists would probably want YOU dead for being on a website like this too, do you?
  • tokugawa

    Posts: 945

    Jun 19, 2010 8:09 PM GMT
    Caesarea4 saidtokugawa> your lie that Benny Morris' never used the words "rapes" and "mutilations"
    LOL. A new diversion? As you've been corrected at least 10 times, I said he didn't "document" any rapes.

    You lied when you accused me of lying when I wrote that Benny Morris wrote that rapes and mutilations occurred at Deir Yassin. I then provided the source for my assertion, which was Morris' book "The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949."

    When confronted with your lie, you then attempted to move the goalposts by saying that Morris didn't document any rapes, which does nothing to change your original lie; Morris DID write that rapes and mutilations occurred at Deir Yassin. You still refuse to acknowledge this.

    When confronted with moving the goalposts, you stonewalled, and refused to acknowledge your original error. And as you point out, you have repeated your lies at least 10 times.

    I guess you just can't handle the truth
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    Jun 19, 2010 9:08 PM GMT
    tokugawa> I guess you just can't handle the truth

    ROTFL. You and your ilk are the only ones who believe your lies are "the truth".

    I'm not sure why this is about the 5th topic into which you have leached the above set of lies regarding what I said and what Morris said. Suffice it to say that I quote Morris in full paragraphs while you cut and paste half-sentences (while omitting the next sentence) to completely misrepresent what Morris wrote.

    So let's get back to this topic now, eh?


    tokugawa> You may dispute my source and its evidence

    That there is only one source for the "evidence" is itself curious. It's like people who say: "read this ONE book" and you'll find out the truth. In this case, it's not even a book, it's... Vanity Fair (which has beautiful people on the cover but isn't exactly known for its in-depth reporting).

    Let's take a look at the "evidence" in its entirety, as you just presented it:

    || confidential documents, corroborated by outraged former and current U.S. officials, the author reveals....

    I think this can safely be summarized as: "conspiracy theory".
    There is no real evidence presented.

    Now let's look at the counter-evidence - which you yourself posted:

    T1. The lack of military preparedness of Fatah troops when they were attacked makes this theory pretty batty - a point tokugawa inadvertantly admits when he later says: "Abbas' forces did not put up much of a fight in Gaza".

    T2. The fact that it was within Abbas' constitutional powers to fire the P.M. precludes the need for a "violent overthrow" (unless Hamas was going to violently oppose that).


  • tokugawa

    Posts: 945

    Jun 20, 2010 7:56 PM GMT
    Caesarea4 saidtokugawa> I guess you just can't handle the truth …
    tokugawa> You may dispute my source and its evidence

    That there is only one source for the "evidence" is itself curious. It's like people who say: "read this ONE book" and you'll find out the truth. In this case, it's not even a book, it's... Vanity Fair (which has beautiful people on the cover but isn't exactly known for its in-depth reporting).


    So we see the dishonest technique of “moving the goalposts” again.

    First you said:

    A conspiracy theory with no evidence to support it.

    I replied with a source which contained evidence:

    "After failing to anticipate Hamas’s victory over Fatah in the 2006 Palestinian election, the White House cooked up yet another scandalously covert and self-defeating Middle East debacle: part Iran-contra, part Bay of Pigs. With confidential documents, corroborated by outraged former and current U.S. officials, the author reveals how President Bush, Condoleezza Rice, and Deputy National-Security Adviser Elliott Abrams backed an armed force under Fatah strongman Muhammad Dahlan, touching off a bloody civil war in Gaza and leaving Hamas stronger than ever."

    http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/04/gaza200804/

    So your statement that there IS NO evidence is just plain FALSE.

    Do you admit your error? Of course not, C4 is never wrong, at least according to C4. So you repeated your dishonest “move the goalposts” technique (like you did with the Benny Morris quote,) and complain about the fact there is only one source. Let’s repeat your original assertion:

    A conspiracy theory with no evidence to support it.

    Actually, there is plenty of evidence, but I guess you are too lazy to do an internet search.

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    Jun 21, 2010 5:20 AM GMT
    A conspiracy theory with no evidence to support it.

    tokugawa> I replied with a source which contained evidence

    Perhaps you don't understand what "evidence" means?
    Someone else making an ALLEGATION is not "evidence" let alone "proof".

    Someone else pointing to someone else pointing to someone else saying they've seen "evidence" (but can't reproduce it) is a conspiracy theory.


    The only dishonest person here is you, ignoring amongst other things your own refutation of the above conspiracy theory:

    T0. That there is only one source for the "evidence" is itself curious. It's like people who say: "read this ONE book" and you'll find out the truth. In this case, it's not even a book, it's... Vanity Fair (which has beautiful people on the cover but isn't exactly known for its in-depth reporting).

    Let's take a look at the "evidence" in its entirety, as you just presented it:

    || confidential documents, corroborated by outraged former and current U.S. officials, the author reveals....

    I think this can safely be summarized as: "conspiracy theory".
    There is no real evidence presented.


    Now let's look at the counter-evidence - which you yourself posted:

    T1. The lack of military preparedness of Fatah troops when they were attacked makes this theory pretty batty - a point tokugawa inadvertantly admits when he later says: "Abbas' forces did not put up much of a fight in Gaza".

    T2. The fact that it was within Abbas' constitutional powers to fire the P.M. precludes the need for a "violent overthrow" (unless Hamas was going to illegally and violently oppose that).



    The saddest thing is that I don't think tokugawa even understands that in order to support what he is saying he not only has to provide real evidence, but he has to also address T1 and T2.

  • tokugawa

    Posts: 945

    Jun 21, 2010 12:12 PM GMT
    Caesarea4 saidA conspiracy theory with no evidence to support it.


    MORE EVIDENCE:

    Abbas advisor says Hamas fighting collaborators

    Hani al-Hassan, senior presidential advisor says Gaza war was between Hamas and Fatah collaborators who aided Israel, US. Gunshots fired at al-Hassan's home following statements, Abbas dismisses him from his role

    Ali Waked Published: 06.28.07, 01:41 / Israel News
    http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3418486,00.html

    The Gaza events were not a war between Fatah and Hamas; but between Hamas and Fatah collaborators who served the Americans and the Israelis, said a senior Fatah advisor on Wednesday.

    Hani al-Hassan, the Palestinian president's senior political advisor and member of Fatah's central committee said in a TV interview that what was happening in the Gaza Strip was the defeat of to plans of American Major General Keith Dayton and his Fatah followers.

    Al-Hassan's words severely discredit Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas and other Arab leaders' claims that the Gaza takeover was a coup against Palestinian democracy.

    By making such statements the presidential advisor supports Hamas' claims that the war was between a small group of Fatah men who served Israel and the United States.

    Following the interview, which put a dent in Fatah's PR efforts, Fatah gunmen fired at al-Hassan's home. No one was injured, as al-Hassan was abroad for the interview.

    Senior Fatah bodies demanded al-Hassan be dismissed from all his duties, but Abbas settled for firing him only from his post as senior political advisor.

    Azzam al-Ahmad, head of the Fatah parliamentary bloc stressed that al-Hassan's words did not represent even the most junior Fatah member, and only represented his own position.

    http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3418486,00.html
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    Jun 21, 2010 12:27 PM GMT
    tokugawa> more evidence

    You can't have "more" of something you haven't presented yet.
    If you actually critically think about it, your new "evidence" actually contradicts your previous "evidence":

    > claims that the war was between a small group of Fatah men who served Israel and the United States.

    OK, let's assume that this small group of Fatah men were the ones thrown off roof-tops.
    Why then is there still such hostility between Hamas and Fatah (not just a "small group" within it)?


    As predicted, the saddest thing is that I don't think tokugawa even understands that in order to support what he is saying he has to also address T1 and T2.

    T1. The lack of military preparedness of Fatah troops when they were attacked makes this theory pretty batty - a point tokugawa inadvertantly admits when he later says: "Abbas' forces did not put up much of a fight in Gaza".

    T2. The fact that it was within Abbas' constitutional powers to fire the P.M. precludes the need for a "violent overthrow" (unless Hamas was going to illegally and violently oppose that).



  • tokugawa

    Posts: 945

    Jun 21, 2010 4:00 PM GMT
    Caesarea4 saidtokugawa> more evidence …


    Not just one document, but four pieces of ‘smoking gun’ evidence are presented here:

    http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/04/gaza_documents200804


    The Proof Is in the Paper Trail

    While reporting “The Gaza Bombshell,” David Rose acquired an extraordinary trove of documents showing how the U.S. pressured its Palestinian allies to take on Hamas—a strategy that proved disastrous when Hamas staged what appears to have been a pre-emptive coup in Gaza last June. Here are some of the key records he discovered.

    WEB EXCLUSIVE March 5, 2008 Web special: Michael Hogan interviews David Rose.


    1. These “talking points”

    http://www.vanityfair.com/images/politics/2008/04/gaza_Walles0804.pdf

    were left behind in Ramallah by a State Department envoy. Palestinian and American officials say they formed the basis for State Department official Jake Walles’s discussions with Palestinian president and Fatah party leader Mahmoud Abbas in late October or early November 2006. According to the memo, Walles urged Abbas to dissolve the Hamas-led government if Hamas refused to recognize Israel’s right to exist, promising that the U.S. and its Arab allies would strengthen Fatah’s military forces to deal with the likely backlash from Hamas.

    2. “Plan B”

    http://www.vanityfair.com/images/politics/2008/04/gaza_PlanB0804.pdf

    refers to a State Department strategy that was devised after Abbas made a deal in January 2007 to form a unity government with Fatah and Hamas—much to America’s dismay. This early, two-page draft, which has been authenticated by senior State Department officials who knew of its content at the time and by Palestinians who saw it in Abbas’s office, outlines possible scenarios for Abbas to expel Hamas from power and to boost his security forces to deal with the inevitable violent fallout.

    3. Plan B evolved into this “action plan for the Palestinian Presidency”

    http://www.vanityfair.com/images/politics/2008/04/gaza_framework0804.pdf

    a blueprint for a full-blown coup against Abbas’s own unity government. This was one of several drafts presented by a joint American-Jordanian team. Officials who were knowledgeable at the time say it originated with the State Department. Its security appendix reveals details of the secret talks between Palestinian strongman Muhammad Dahlan and Lieutenant General Keith Dayton.

    4. The final draft of the action plan

    http://www.vanityfair.com/images/politics/2008/04/gaza_actionplan0804.pdf

    adopted large sections of the previous documents wholesale, but presented the plan as if it had been conceived from the beginning by Abbas and his staff. This draft has also been authenticated by officials knowledgeable at the time. Note especially the third section, on security.

    http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/04/gaza_documents200804
  • tokugawa

    Posts: 945

    Jun 21, 2010 4:32 PM GMT
    Caesarea4 said … Why then is there still such hostility between Hamas and Fatah (not just a "small group" within it)?


    Fatah is now a Quisling regime dependant on financial and political support of the United States for its continued existence. In other words, if the U.S. tells Abbas to jump, Abbas replies, “how high?” Because Abbas is so closely identified with the U.S., he has lost the support of the Palestinian people, both in Gaza and the West Bank. Abbas’ weakness is spelled out in the following article:

    Canceled West Bank vote affirms Fatah decline

    Abbas' Fatah Party in disarray, afraid of election even with main rival, Hamas, out of picture

    MOHAMMED DARAGHMEH
    AP News

    Jun 19, 2010 07:30 EDT

    The Palestinian party expected to help deliver a Mideast peace deal is in such disarray these days, it's afraid to compete in an election even with its main rival out of the picture.

    Next month's municipal balloting in the West Bank should have handed an easy victory to the Western-backed Fatah movement since its bitter competitor, the Islamic militant Hamas, decided to sit out the race. However, with strong signs that independents were poised to win in key towns, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, Fatah's leader, called off the election at the last minute.

    more at:

    http://wire.antiwar.com/2010/06/19/canceled-west-bank-vote-affirms-fatah-decline-5

  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 22, 2010 12:05 AM GMT
    tokugawa> "According to the memo, Walles urged Abbas to dissolve the Hamas-led government if Hamas refused to recognize Israel’s right to exist, promising that the U.S. and its Arab allies would strengthen Fatah’s military forces to deal with the likely backlash from Hamas."

    And? As noted in T2, the President has the constitutional authority to fire the PM. As noted in T1, there was no strengthening of Fatah's military. Your "smoking gun" is Fatah discussing a pre-emptive strengthening of PA forces to combat the illegal Hamas terrorist militia (armed by the thugs in Teheran and Damascus).

    Your apologistic twisting is useless in the face of the facts you yourself presented.



    tokugawa> Fatah is now a Quisling regime dependant on financial and political support of the United States for its continued existence. In other words, if the U.S. tells Abbas to jump, Abbas replies, “how high?” Because Abbas is so closely identified with the U.S., he has lost the support of the Palestinian people

    Oh, is "Quisling" the new soundbite/slogan flavor of the month?

    Strange then that the US doesn't just dicate a solution to Abbas and get this over with, eh?
    Heck, the US can't even get Abbas to enter into direct negotiations.

    Tell me, did Quisling have the support of a majority of his people?
    Abbas' satisfaction rate (PCPSR*, June, 2010) is 49%.
    A plurality also believe the Fayyad/Fatah government is legitimate.

    * PCPSR is tokugawa's source's source. It is run by, as they put it, "Palestinian pollster Khalil Shikaki".


    tokugawa> Abbas’ weakness is spelled out in the following article

    While tokugawa doesn't make it clear, the article is speaking only about municipal/local elections, not PA national elections.
    Let's take a closer look at the poll:

    || A majority of 62% gives a positive evaluation to the performance of their local councils during the past five years while only 35% give it a negative evaluation. If local elections do take place, as was planned before the cancellation of the elections by the Fayyad government, 56% say they would participate in those elections even if boycotted by Hamas while 41% say they will not participate. Moreover, a majority of 51% believe that these elections, if they were to take place as scheduled, would be fair and free while 37% say they would not be fair or free. A larger percentage (48%) believes that if local elections are to take place on time, Fateh would win while 12% believe leftists and independents would win, Finally, a majority of 51% believe that if election do take place with Hamas boycotting it, it will lead to the consolidation of the internal split while only 17% say it would make reconciliation easier and 27% say it would have no impact on reconciliation or split.

    Also from this poll:

    || If new presidential elections are held today, Abbas would receive the vote of 54% and Haniyeh 39%

    || If the presidential elections were between [Fatah's] Marwan Barghouti and Ismail Haniyeh, the former would receive 65% and the latter would receive 30%

    Even the former is a huge victory (15%) which in the US would be considered a "landslide".
    What were you saying about Fatah/Abbas' "weakness"?!


    || If new legislative elections are held today with the participation of all factions, 71% say they would participate in such elections. Of those who would participate, 45% say they would vote for Fateh and 26% say they would vote for Hamas, 12% would vote for all other third parties combined, and 18% are undecided. Vote for Fateh in the Gaza Strip reaches 49% and in the West Bank 42%. Vote for Hamas in the Gaza Strip reaches 32% and in the West Bank 22%.

    So even if the entire 18% of undecided voted for Hamas, they would still lose by a slim 45-44% margin (which is obviously too close to call, but then again, odds are that nearly half would vote for Fatah, 1/4 for Hamas and the rest for independents - or maybe they just wouldn't vote). So what is left for debate isn't if Fatah would win the legislative election, but if it would win the majority of seats (which appears likely).


    || Hamas’s problem with the public remains unchanged as many believe it brings about siege and contribute to the split between the West Bank and the Gaza Strip while the public tends to believe that Fateh contributes to the lifting of the siege and the ending of the spilt.

    Wow. If the Palestinian Arabs can admit this, why can't our resident Palestinian Arab apologists/propagandists?


    Let's see what else tokugawa omits from his own source:

    || [Abbas'] standoff with Hamas — following the militants' violent takeover of Gaza in 2007 — has made it impossible to hold general elections.

    Oh, I suppose that explains why tokugawa has stopped (I hope) referring to Hamas as the "democractically elected" government.
    They illegally seized power in a "violent takeover" also known as a violent coup.
    (Why can't he admit that HUMONGOUS mistake?)

    Oh, wait. Tokugawa actually has admitted that Hamas seized power in a violent coup, he's now just being an apologist for the terrorist group and attempting to explain, rationalize and justify the bloody coup as "pre-emptive".

    Indeed, if he knew this all along... why did he initially pretend "democractically elected"?!


    This is the same pattern of lies we frequently see from sxydrkhair, e.g.
    S> Israel started the violence in 1947-48
    C4> documentation of Arabs starting the violence
    S'> The Arabs started the violence in 1947-48 because [new lies].

    Here we have:
    T> Hamas is the democratically elected government
    C4> documentation of Hamas' voilent coup
    T'> Hamas seized power in a violent coup because [new lies].


    Isn't it odd how tokugawa is jumping between contradicting premises? First it was the "democractically elected Hamas", and now he's stuck arguing that the Fatah government is as illegitimate as the Hamas government? And now he's trying to blame it all on Israel or the US... as if Hamas and Fatah's rivalry and policies have nothing to do with it?!

    Once again we see that the truth doesn't matter to tokugawa. He'll twist anything and everything to suit his preconceived notions which he attempts to masquerade and push as valid conclusions. tokugawa, like samxr, is lying-for-the-cause.


    Let's skip ahead to:

    T17. Hamas raids, closes NGO offices

    tokugawa> [doesn't seem to care]

    T18. Do you believe that Hamas is good for the people of Gaza?

    tokugawa> [won't answer]

    tokugawa's cause has nothing to do with making life better for the Palestinians.
    His cause is, damn the facts, "anti-Israel" uber alles.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jul 01, 2010 9:54 PM GMT
    Yeah I will be piss off if any of my relatives were killed in cold blooded by Israeli troops.

    It is like the Avatar movie. Israel want Palestinian land, they do not care about peace.