Countries that support gays or kill them

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jun 11, 2010 7:29 AM GMT
    Not to get into the geo-political debate about Isreal and Palestine, or either's rights to exist, but:

    It is hard to support anyone who would kill me for being gay. I feel for the Palestinians, but then again they would kill me for being gay. As would most Middle-East countries. So, I find it hard to feel much empathy for groups that would kill me personally. Maybe it is just me. I prefer not to be dead. I am sure they are nice people. But, they want me dead in the worst way. Hanged or beheaded or castrated until I bleed to death. But the outcome is the same. So, for almost selfish reasons, I tend to support countries that do not want to kill me for being gay over countries that would kill me for being gay.

    Is it just me?
  • DanOmatic

    Posts: 1155

    Jun 11, 2010 2:00 PM GMT
    Retro-medieval mindsets + religiousity/superstition = fear and intolerance. Makes no difference whether it's Uganda, Iran, Saudi Arabia or Utah.
  • calibro

    Posts: 8888

    Jun 11, 2010 4:24 PM GMT
    being in the right on one issue does not excuse you from the wrongs of the others
  • KissTheSky

    Posts: 1981

    Jun 11, 2010 4:32 PM GMT
    Triggerman said
    It is hard to support anyone who would kill me for being gay. I feel for the Palestinians, but then again they would kill me for being gay. As would most Middle-East countries. So, I find it hard to feel much empathy for groups that would kill me personally. Maybe it is just me. I prefer not to be dead.

    Is it just me?

    It's hard to argue with this logic. I've always found it difficult to sympathize with people who demand civil rights for themselves but don't believe in civil rights for me. (Like the right to live, for example.)
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    Jun 11, 2010 4:38 PM GMT
    I agree.

    I feel bad for the Palestinian people, and you have to remember its not all of the people. Many of them want to be free and apart of the world. The ones who are lucky enough to get out of there and move to Israel, or United States, or Europe, never want to go back to Palestine. Though at the same time they are still in fear especially if their families are still there.

    Its the leadership. The corruption, and evil words from their leaders do poison the minds of their people, but there are many who don't go along with it and know its wrong, but they really can't say or do anything about it if they aren't so lucky enough to have the means to leave. Many of them who have been brave enough to speak out against Hamas, or Al Qeada, Hezbollah, Taliban ect (its all the same), get killed.

    The fact is, as long as you have people who live, and force others to live like backwards barbarians ruled by twisted religious ideology, you're always going to have hate violence and death in that region of the world plain and simple.

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    Jun 11, 2010 4:55 PM GMT
    Triggerman saidNot to get into the geo-political debate about Isreal and Palestine, or either's rights to exist, but:

    It is hard to support anyone who would kill me for being gay. I feel for the Palestinians, but then again they would kill me for being gay. As would most Middle-East countries. So, I find it hard to feel much empathy for groups that would kill me personally. Maybe it is just me. I prefer not to be dead. I am sure they are nice people. But, they want me dead in the worst way. Hanged or beheaded or castrated until I bleed to death. But the outcome is the same. So, for almost selfish reasons, I tend to support countries that do not want to kill me for being gay over countries that would kill me for being gay.

    Is it just me?


    Samir (sxydrkhair) is going chime in any moment with some bullshit on how Palestine is actually a loving gay friendly utopia. So much so that you could blow each other in front of any civil or religious authority figure and they would laugh good naturedly and give you their blessing. Not only that, he will say how you got it backwards and Israel is actually anti gay because some crazy religious extremists who hate gays exist with its borders.
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    Jun 11, 2010 5:33 PM GMT
    I can't help but wonder how long tolerance and protection for GLBT people in Israel will last with the increase of immigration from the former Soviet Union. Every former Soviet republic has a very conservative view of gays (that stems more from decades under socialism than from religious morals) and no former republic of the USSR has any protection for gays (not even the "liberal" Baltic republics). As they arrive, settle in, and raise families in Israel, they'll eventually become a visible force in Israel's politics since Soviet Jews are now the largest minority group.
  • Thaer

    Posts: 82

    Jun 11, 2010 6:36 PM GMT
    1st I want to say Palestine it’s not a gay heaven but ,,

    I Need to clarify that homosexuality is legal in the west bank and illegal in Gaza with laws dating to the British Criminal Code Ordinance of 1936. And the homosexuality is punishable by death in six countries out of 24 Middle Eastern courtiers so I don’t think that most of them will kill you. although you might be placed in prison in some of the countries if you’ve been caught in public act of homosexuality.
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    Jun 11, 2010 7:04 PM GMT
    I always find it really amusing when gay people try to justify terrorists. You're basically just as bad as a jew to them.
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    Jun 11, 2010 10:21 PM GMT
    sxydrkhair saidmy name is not Samir.
    From an email sxydrkhair sent me on May 31st:

    sxydrkhair> My real name is Samir not Samer

    Is there anything this pathological and compulsive liar won't twist and lie about?


    sxydrkhair saidThere are extremists on both sides.
    False equivalence.
    The extremists on the Israeli side are a tiny, marginal, fringe.
    In the PA, they are a sizeable percentage of the population.
    In Gaza, they are the government.


    sxydrkhair saidI said homosexual in the West Bank is legal. Gay is illegal and Lesbian is legal in Gaza
    Which is completely meaningless. Despite not being explicitly illegal, gay people are murdered in Gaza and Trans-Jordan's former so-called "West Bank". Some times by the authorities, other times by their own families.


    sxydrkhair saidwe can't compare Palestine to Israel, because Palestine is not a country yet. They don't have any protection laws because they are under the Israeli occupation. Israeli government run people in the Palestinian territories.
    More lies.
    97% of the Palestinian Arabs live under the rule of the Palestinian Authority.
    (Only 3% live in the seam area still under Israeli rule.)
    In Gaza, 100% live under the rule of Hamas.

    Both the PA and Hamas routinely pass laws. For example, Hamas has passed laws forbidding male hairdressers from cutting women's hair and barring churches from ringing their bells. One of the first laws passed by the PA some 15 years ago was to make the sale of land to Jews a capital offense - punishable by death. Just now they passed a law forbidding people from working in Jewish villages. Punishable by up to 5 years in jail, this law will impact 25,000 families (and then we'll hear more about how destitute they are and in need of humanitarian aid....)

    If the PA (or Hamas, ha ha) were inclined to pass gay rights, they could procedurally do so next week.
    Don't hold your breath. They won't and - despite sxydrkhair's lies - it has nothing to do with Israel.
    That's just his usual serving of spam propaganda lies-for-the-cause.
    Showing us that he hates Israel more than he loves or cares for his gay brothers and sisters.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jun 11, 2010 11:16 PM GMT
    UMMM... I'm from Lebanon. We are the ONLY gay friendly country in the Middle East. The thing is we don't consider ourselves Arabs. We are Phoenicians. It's unfortunate that we are stuck with those extremist douche bags.


    List of gay bars in Lebanon
    http://lebanongaybars.com/


    Lebanese beach parties
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nm-wsu4Lj4

    Tiesto in Lebanon
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95c--wRSz70
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jun 11, 2010 11:31 PM GMT
    See this previous RJ topic:

    Lebanese gays take fight for their rights public
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/519217
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    Jun 11, 2010 11:39 PM GMT
    Caesarea4 saidSee this previous RJ topic:

    Lebanese gays take fight for their rights public
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/519217
    .


    Ummm sweet heart if that was any other Arabic country they wouldn't even be able to have a protest for there rights.. Or even have an organization for gays you idiot.

    I;'m not saying my country is Canada when it comes to gay rights. But what I'm trying to say is that we have tolerance unlike the other radical Arabic countries. I just find it funny that you take every opportunity to put down a Middle Eastern country.. It shows how racist you are.
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    Jun 11, 2010 11:49 PM GMT
    Utah that was funny. many homosexuals live in Utah and don't fear for their lives, and by saying that you have to put the USA on that list, as Utah is a State of the USA. Did not think the US killed its homosexual, tortured them, burred them alive. Must be a State for real men then.
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    Jun 12, 2010 1:11 AM GMT
    viveutvivas saidFrom Wikipedia:

    Some LGBT Palestinians have relocated to Israel, often fleeing harsh intolerance that includes physical abuse, death, or disownment. Significant expatriate groups exist in Tel Aviv and Netanya, where many live with their Israeli same-sex partners who help keep their presence in Israel hidden from the police (who would pursue them not for their sexual orientation, but for staying illegally in the country).

    Another argument for stopping the Apartheid and giving Palestinians full Israeli citizenship and human rights.

    Has it crossed your mind that the majority of the Palestinian Arabs don't want Israeli citizenship?
    They want their own Palestinian Arab state.

    By your "logic", it would also be "apartheid" not to merge Jordan (originally 77% of Mandate Palestine).
    Rather than provide gay rights to the Arabs, you'll end up depriving it from the Israelis (Jewish or Arab).

    It's unfortunate that Palestinian Arab gays are persecuted both under the PA and Hamas.
    (I changed the bolding to the section relevant to this topic.)
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    Jun 12, 2010 1:13 AM GMT
    meemo21 said
    Caesarea4 saidSee this previous RJ topic:

    Lebanese gays take fight for their rights public
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/519217

    Ummm sweet heart if that was any other Arabic country they wouldn't even be able to have a protest for there rights.. Or even have an organization for gays you idiot.

    I;'m not saying my country is Canada when it comes to gay rights. But what I'm trying to say is that we have tolerance unlike the other radical Arabic countries. I just find it funny that you take every opportunity to put down a Middle Eastern country.. It shows how racist you are.

    LOL. All I did was provide a link to a previous discussion about the advancement of gay rights in Lebanon.
  • barriehomeboy

    Posts: 2475

    Jun 12, 2010 1:47 AM GMT
    Canada is generally a good destination. Gay marriage is legal. Smoking pot is legal, possissing it isn't. Spark up those pipes. We accept gun toting grenade throwing child molesting immigrants too, it seems. So yeah, come aboard the good ship Canada.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jun 12, 2010 2:07 AM GMT
    C4> Has it crossed your mind that the majority of the Palestinian Arabs don't want Israeli citizenship?
    They want their own Palestinian Arab state.

    v> ?


    C4> By your "logic", it would also be "apartheid" not to merge Jordan (originally 77% of Mandate Palestine).
    Rather than provide gay rights to the Arabs, you'll end up depriving it from the Israelis (Jewish or Arab).

    v> ?


    viveutvivas> calling it "Israel" pretty much excludes Arabs from the start form the national project

    I guess Germany should also change its name... lest it exclude the Turks who have been living there for generations (and, until recently, were also deprived of citizenship). France, too, what with all the Algerians there. If only Spain changed its name, the Basques might not want their own country (which I'm sure you consider an "apartheid" desire, too).


    viveutvivas> If Israel is going to become a non-racist democracy, it should change its name.

    The argument is funny not just because the name of a country has nothing to do with it being democratic, but because of the extent of your argument's reach. You already know that Israel extends full citizenship and equal protection under the law to its Arab and other minorities. You know that Israeli Arabs vote, serve in the Knesset (parliament), as ministers in the ruling government coalition, as ambassadors, as judges (including on the High Court) and as Generals. So you are left claiming it is a racist democracy based on its... name? Thud... ROTFL.


    viveutvivas> you could start with the ones that I bolded, that are currently being sent back

    Can you tell us how many, if any, were sent back?

    Note that the article states "would pursue", not "pursues".

    Arab gays in neighboring regions who flee to Israel for safety are an open "secret" and are not "sent back".
    (During the intifada there was some added tension, thankfully that has past.)

    http://www.israel21c.org/social-action/taking-pride-in-israel-s-gay-rights
    Laws and mores in the Palestinian Authority are equally strict, which explains why so many gay Palestinians have fled to Israel for help and sexual freedom - in part the subject of The Bubble. The Aguda [Israeli gay rights organization] runs a rescue project aimed at saving the lives of gays persecuted in areas under the PA by providing the necessary bureaucratic and legal aid to achieve refugee status or otherwise prevent the deportation of gay Palestinians from Israel back to the Palestinian territories.
    "Even in Morocco, gays know we are the address for help," says Doitsch. So far this year, 364 Arabs from around the world have contacted the Aguda for help. "They will get killed if it is discovered that they are gay, so we try to get them shelter in other countries," he says. "We are here to help gays wherever they are."
    The [Jerusalem Open House's] Palestinian Project's most successful initiative to date is its Arabic language website. The discussion forum has attracted more than 300 members since it was launched less than a year ago. The JOH also runs an Arabic language hotline, which takes calls for help from across the Arab world. "We are the only Arabic-speaking country in the Middle East that offers help and a forum for gays," says Savitch.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/love-sex/taboo-tolerance/the-five-most-improved-places-for-gay-tolerance-932635.html
    Israel is the only Middle-Eastern country to support gay rights legislation, and the country attracts gay people from Palestine and Lebanon. Tel Aviv has a growing scene and is tolerant and gay-friendly for both men and women.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3211772.stm
    Palestinian gays flee to Israel
    A number of gay Palestinian men are risking their lives to cross the border into Israel, claiming they feel safer among Israelis than their own people.
  • gaydocalex

    Posts: 80

    Jun 13, 2010 3:40 PM GMT
    Spain Bans Israelis from Pride Parade

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/09/madrid-gay-pride-bans-israelis

    The only country in the entire middle east that does not criminilize and punish gays....
    The only country in the entire middle east that encourages gays to serve proudly in the military......
    The only country in the entire middle east that does not have the death penalty for homosexuality ...
    The only countery in the entire middle east that has an active support network for arabs (and Jews) who are persecuted by their communities for being gay .....
    see http://www.joh.org.il/index.php?id=1803
    The only country in the entire middle east that has public municipally sponsored annual pride parades .....
    The only country in the entire middle east that permits gay adoption ......

    is not good enough to be represented at the Spanish pride parade? !!!!

    I wonder if they would have the same response if a repressive regime like Iran or Saudi Arabia had sent a delegation ... which they cant because all their gays have been executed!!!

    The end of days is nigh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



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    Jun 14, 2010 8:32 PM GMT
    Wow. With that type of discombobulation, is it any wonder that sxydrkhair can't distinguish between lies and the truth?

    The reality is that the PA and Hamas are governments that pass laws.
    e.g. laws making it a capital offense, punishable by execution, to sell land to Jews.
    (Not because Jews have a history of "stealing" lands but because there is a known history of Jews purchasing land.)
    e.g. a law that is about to make it illegal for Palestinian Arabs to work in Jewish villages.
    Depriving 25,000 people of their jobs (impacting perhaps 250,000 people).

    So getting back to this topic (rather than sxydrkhair's stream of anti-Israel lies), the reality is that there are no legal protections for gay people in Palestine-to-be because no such thing is on anyone's agenda. Gays are persecuted there (but not in Israel), and that's not going to magically change if a two-state solution (one Jewish, the other Arab) goes into effect tomorrow or next year. (Netanyahu, by the way, supports the two state solution. It is currently the PA which refuses to enter into direct negotiations and is limiting the peace process to a slow, cumbersome, "proximity talks").

    Summarizing the status of gays:

    Israel: Full legal protections, arguably one of the top-10 countries in the world to be gay.

    Palestine-to-be: abysmal situation with little sign of change, not much different from surrounding Arab countries.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jun 14, 2010 10:34 PM GMT
    The only fail here is your repetition of lies that were already refuted, mixed in with new lies... all while ignoring the topic:

    The reality is that the PA and Hamas are governments that pass laws.
    e.g. laws making it a capital offense, punishable by execution, to sell land to Jews.
    (Not because Jews have a history of "stealing" lands but because there is a known history of Jews purchasing land.)
    e.g. a law that is about to make it illegal for Palestinian Arabs to work in Jewish villages.
    Depriving 25,000 people of their jobs (impacting perhaps 250,000 people).


    Missing the point (the PA & Hamas pass laws as they see fit, according to their agenda), SamXr regurgitates lies about land ownership 60+ years ago (reality: his sources cook the figures into "Jewish" vs "Arab & Other" - the latter including the vast majority of land that was not privately owned. We could just as well reverse that by saying that resident Arabs owned only 3.3% of the land while Jews & others owned the other 96.7%. See, most recently, S11 here:
    1947-1948: Arabs reject compromise and attack Israel
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/960691#54845_964449_name

    On the Hamas agenda is forbidding male hairdressers from having female clients and burning down Christian-Arab run party stores (which sell aldoholic products), not gay rights.

    On the PA agenda is making nearly 1/10th of the work force unemployed, gay rights will have to wait. Probably a very long time.


    Unsatisfied by just that lie, he continues:

    SDH> If we sell it to Jews, the land will become part of Israel. Palestinians cannot live there.

    Given that there are more than 1 million Palestinian Arabs living in Israel, there is another transparent "lie-for-the-cause". But it also reveals the "sell the cake and eat it too" mentality. If a private plot of land is sold to a Japanese person, the seller can't later decide to live there. Yet the PA law only forbade land sale to Jews.

    Note further how SamXr says nothing about the 25,000 Palestinian Arabs (and the hundreds of thousands dependent upon them) who will lose their livlihood if the PA goes through with its plans to arrest those who don't quit their jobs in Jewish villages. Again we see that for some it's more about being "anti-Israel" than "pro-Palestinian Arab".


    So getting back to this topic (rather than sxydrkhair's stream of anti-Israel lies), the reality is that there are no legal protections for gay people in Palestine-to-be because no such thing is on anyone's agenda. Gays are persecuted there (but not in Israel), and that's not going to magically change if a two-state solution (one Jewish, the other Arab) goes into effect tomorrow or next year. (Netanyahu, by the way, supports the two state solution. It is currently the PA which refuses to enter into direct negotiations and is limiting the peace process to slow, cumbersome, "proximity talks").

    Summarizing the status of gays:

    Israel: Full legal protections, arguably one of the top-10 countries in the world to be gay.

    Palestine-to-be: abysmal situation with little sign of change, not much different from surrounding Arab countries.


    SDH> [knows this is true, but hates Israel more than he loves his gay brothers and sisters.]
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    Aug 19, 2010 8:48 PM GMT
    viveutvivas said
    Of course Palestinians don't want to be Israeli's. That's another name for Jewish. If Israel is going to become a non-racist democracy, it should change its name.


    Ummm, that's like saying "Of course Canadians don't want to be American. That's another name for Christian". That's CLEARLY not the reason we don't want to be American (there's a joke in that one...).

    Viveutvivas, by your logic, I feel like every country that has a predominant religion (pretty much all of them) could be considered a "racist democracy". I don't celebrate Christmas, even though it's shoved down my throat. It doesn't mean that I think Canada or America are racist democracies and should thus change their names. That's absurd (*shakes head*).
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    Aug 19, 2010 9:01 PM GMT
    sxydrkhair said The only hope for Christians in the Holy Land is if we as a community tell the Israelis and Palestinians to remove religious identities and take on secular nationalistic identities that protect all religions.


    FINALLY, some sense (sort of). Now if only sxydrkhair can use that mentality for ALL nations on this planet instead of thinking that Israel is the only offender.

    The world would indeed be a better place if it were ENTIRELY secular. Religion and politics do not mix. This is pretty clear. I say we scrap religion entirely and allow people to be who they are.

    So, to end this debate (at least from my side), I give a big FUCK YOU to religion. Peace out.
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    Aug 19, 2010 9:14 PM GMT
    Caesarea4 saidThe only fail here is...



    Suitability-1.jpg
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Aug 19, 2010 11:51 PM GMT
    viveutvitas> If Israel is going to become a non-racist democracy, it should change its name.

    PHJock> Ummm, that's like saying "Of course Canadians don't want to be American. That's another name for Christian".

    viveutvitas> historically Israelite is the same as Jewish, which is an ethnicity, like, for example, Serbs.

    So you are saying that Serbia must change its name else it is "racist" against its non-Serbs citizens?!

    The argument is funny not just because the name of a country has nothing to do with it being democratic, but because it is such a huge reach. You already know that Israel extends full citizenship and equal protection under the law to its Arab and other minorities. You know that Israeli Arabs vote, serve in the Knesset (parliament), as ministers in the ruling government coalition, as ambassadors, as judges (including on the High Court) and as Generals in the Israeli Army. So you are left claiming it is a "racist democracy" based on its... name?