Is this the final nail in Obama's coffin?

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    Jun 19, 2010 9:07 PM GMT
    From the editorial page of today's Wall Street Journal

    (the bold in last sentence from me, not Wall Street Journal)

    The President Does a Jones Act
    Why Obama turned down foreign ships to clean up the Gulf.

    President Obama has repeatedly said his Administration is doing everything in its power to expedite the oil clean-up and mitigate the damage. But in the two weeks immediately after the spill, 13 foreign governments reached out and offered their assistance. The U.S. response? Thanks, but no thanks.

    Or at least that's how Geert Visser, consul general for the Netherlands in Houston, described the U.S. answer. The State Department phrased it slightly differently: "While there is no need right now that the U.S. cannot meet, the U.S. Coast Guard is assessing these offers of assistance to see if there will be something which we will need in the near future." One month later, many of these offers are still outstanding.

    The Belgian dredging group DEME says it has offered the U.S. specialized vessels and technology that can help clean up the spill in three to four months compared to the estimated nine months that the U.S. will need. There are only a handful of these vessels in the world, and most of them belong to Dutch and Belgian companies. So why aren't we calling on them?

    Blame it on the protectionist Merchant Marine Act of 1920, also called the Jones Act, that requires ships working in U.S. waters to be built, operated and owned by Americans. Building specialized clean-up vessels in the U.S. is too expensive because of high union labor costs, and unions don't want ships built with foreign labor to be used in U.S. waters. To circumvent the Jones Act, clean-up crews have had to outfit American ships with skimming technology airlifted from the Netherlands. This has resulted in serious delays and greater harm to the Gulf.

    Presidents can suspend the Jones Act in emergencies, as George W. Bush did after Hurricane Katrina. But the Obama Administration continues to maintain that this isn't necessary and that there are "no pending requests" for waivers. But Florida Republican Senator George LeMieux disagrees and says his constituents want all the foreign help possible.

    We sympathize with the President's lament on Monday that "I can't dive down there and plug the hole. I can't suck it up with a straw." But there's no excuse for turning away ships that can clean up the oil merely because that might offend Mr. Obama's union friends.

    -------------------------------------------------------------

    The above comes from WSJ Opinion page. It is not a news story, but assuming the facts it cites are true regarding the offers from other countries, this could become a MAJOR election issue. If the idea that Obama played politics to protect his union buddies at the expense of protecting the coast, it will be HUGE and in my opinion could be the defining fact that greatly reduces his influence now and keeps him from being reelected.
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    Jun 19, 2010 9:20 PM GMT
    Please remind us of the other nails in this coffin.
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    Jun 19, 2010 9:54 PM GMT
    southbeach1500 saidHow's that for starters?

    Rather, how's that for Bush carryovers? Where were you with a list like this when Bush was in the White House?

    Who started the wars you list? Who said we'd be in them indefinitely? Who caused the economic downturn, and lost those jobs? Every item in your list is deceptive right-wing propaganda and revisionism. Rewrite history, because Americans forget it so quickly. Lie, lie, and if that doesn't work, lie some more.

    Be careful with these "nails" or you might hit your own thumb with the hammer as you frantically try to pound them in.
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    Jun 19, 2010 10:05 PM GMT
    Wilton said
    southbeach1500 saidHow's that for starters?

    Rather, how's that for Bush carryovers? Where were you with a list like this when Bush was in the White House?

    Who started the wars you list? Who said we'd be in them indefinitely? Who caused the economic downturn, and lost those jobs? Every item in your list is deceptive right-wing propaganda and revisionism. Rewrite history, because Americans forget it so quickly. Lie, lie, and if that doesn't work, lie some more.

    Be careful with these "nails" or you might hit your own thumb with the hammer as you frantically try to pound them in.

    I think many people including loyal Dems are getting tired of the continual blame Bush rhetoric. Makes Obama look even weaker. He was elected to fix the problems he claimed he could handle. Another WSJ editorial suggests same.

    But all this discussion is focused on the title I put on the thread instead of the main issue. I suggest there are many threads that have discussed the other issues. Let's keep this one specifically on the administration's lack of response to offers of help, if the facts cited are true. That may be difficult to do because it's difficult to defend the administration's conduct. Even strong environmentalists who have traditionally supported Obama should be outraged.
  • rnch

    Posts: 11524

    Jun 19, 2010 10:12 PM GMT
    obama's oil spill response, just like bush's hurricane response, has been slow, sub-standard and lacking.

    the oil spill has become obama's "Katrina". icon_sad.gif
  • tazzari

    Posts: 2937

    Jun 19, 2010 10:14 PM GMT
    Obama is an intelligent, hard-working man who has already accomplished some difficult goals. Unfortunately he has landed in a large number of quagmires not of his creating - most of them inherited - and now everyone is upset because he hasn't solved it all? Or wept on TV? I'd prefer to let him work, support him, criticize respectfully and thoughtfully. Talk of nails and coffins is childish, simplistic, and destructive.

    Maybe if Obama had landed on a carrier in the Gulf, strutted around in a flying suit and waved a "Mission Accomplished" banner, all the morons, GOP diehards and stupid people would be happier?





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    Jun 19, 2010 10:15 PM GMT
    tazzari saidObama is an intelligent, hard-working man who has already accomplished some difficult goals. Unfortunately he has landed in a large number of quagmires not of his creating - most of them inherited - and now everyone is upset because he hasn't solved it all? Or wept on TV?


    No, I'm upset because he turned down legitimate help. That's not an intelligent man inheriting problems. That's a stubborn fool not accepting aid.
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    Jun 19, 2010 10:18 PM GMT
    JakeBenson said
    tazzari saidObama is an intelligent, hard-working man who has already accomplished some difficult goals. Unfortunately he has landed in a large number of quagmires not of his creating - most of them inherited - and now everyone is upset because he hasn't solved it all? Or wept on TV?


    No, I'm upset because he turned down legitimate help. That's not an intelligent man inheriting problems. That's a stubborn fool not accepting aid.

    You hit the nail on the head, if you'll pardon the use of that term in the thread. icon_lol.gif Notice how his supporters can't confront the issue directly and continue to bring up other issues to try and deflect the legitimate criticism.
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    Jun 20, 2010 12:11 PM GMT
    Well guess what Mr. Obama wants to do or should I say will have the power to do under a bill "S.3480 - Protecting Cyberspace as a National Asset Act of 2010" that Mr. Lieberman proposed to Congress basically gives Obama the power and authority to shut down the internet COMPLETELY within the United States and the rest of the world if a "Cyber Emergency" were ever declared. If any American knew what all was really going on in their country "behind the scenes" it would be very hard to sleep restfully at night, knowing water, food, and hand guns are gonna be the essential tools of survival once the shit really hits the fan. We have come too far and too much has been done to have the economic issue for one and it's ultimate collapse which is unavoidable happen eventually. The death of the internet through this bill, would be chaotic in a time of sudden martial law, and the loss of interconnected communication given phones are not affiliated with web needed use. Look the articles up on this and get yourself ready. The war is on us, more than EVER before!! icon_sad.gif
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    Jun 20, 2010 12:17 PM GMT
    southbeach1500 said
    Wilton saidPlease remind us of the other nails in this coffin.

    The massive deficit

    The skyrocketing national debt

    Healthcare "reform" (opposed by more than 50% of voters, supported by only 40%)

    Unemployment stuck at 10% (real unemployment 5 to 10 points higher)

    Failed stimulus (it was promised to keep unemployment no higher than 8%)

    Pissing off our allies (i.e. Germany, France, the UK, Israel)

    Guantanamo still open

    American troops still fighting in Iraq

    American troops still fighting in Afghanistan

    North Korea emboldened

    Iraq continuing to develop nuclear weapons

    Social Security insolvent

    Medicare insolvent

    $7 / gallon gasoline if "Cap and Trade" gets pushed through

    Out of control flow of illegal immigrants across our southern border


    How's that for starters?


    Most if not all of the examples from your lovely list comes to us with a big wet kiss from the failed Rove/Cheney presidency. If you want to impress us, use facts and not fiction, oilslickbeach.
  • HndsmKansan

    Posts: 16311

    Jun 20, 2010 12:18 PM GMT
    southbeach1500 said
    Wilton saidPlease remind us of the other nails in this coffin.

    The massive deficit

    The skyrocketing national debt

    Healthcare "reform" (opposed by more than 50% of voters, supported by only 40%)

    Unemployment stuck at 10% (real unemployment 5 to 10 points higher)

    Failed stimulus (it was promised to keep unemployment no higher than 8%)

    Pissing off our allies (i.e. Germany, France, the UK, Israel)

    Guantanamo still open

    American troops still fighting in Iraq

    American troops still fighting in Afghanistan

    North Korea emboldened

    Iraq continuing to develop nuclear weapons

    Social Security insolvent

    Medicare insolvent

    $7 / gallon gasoline if "Cap and Trade" gets pushed through

    Out of control flow of illegal immigrants across our southern border


    How's that for starters?




    I had to laugh, what a stretch..... American troops still fighting... if we pulled em, you'd be even madder, wanting his head... and some are even worse.... social security insolvent. Guantanamo still open.... please!
    Talking about twisted.
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    Jun 20, 2010 12:24 PM GMT
    On subject, OP, this comes from the editorial page of Murdoch's WSJournal.

    This opinion piece is an opinion, and nothing more. Thanks, but I'll await a rebuttal from the White House or from another talking head before I form my opinion. It's always best to have both sides of the story before you go pushing columns from op-ed pages as gospel.
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    Jun 20, 2010 12:30 PM GMT
    reppaT saidOn subject, OP, this comes from the editorial page of Murdoch's WSJournal.

    This opinion piece is an opinion, and nothing more. Thanks, but I'll await a rebuttal from the White House or from another talking head before I form my opinion. It's always best to have both sides of the story before you go pushing columns from op-ed pages as gospel.

    In the first message I wrote this:
    "The above comes from WSJ Opinion page. It is not a news story, but assuming the facts it cites are true..."
    In the media or from the WH I have not seen any dispute of the facts cited so far.
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    Jun 20, 2010 1:07 PM GMT
    reppaT said
    southbeach1500 said
    Wilton saidPlease remind us of the other nails in this coffin.

    The massive deficit
    Seriously? Selective memory!

    The skyrocketing national debt
    Increasing.

    Healthcare "reform" (opposed by more than 50% of voters, supported by only 40%)
    Southbeach…political stances aside, healthcare cannot continue in it’s current form. It had to change. Healthcare is not a privilege of the wealthy, or a fiscal death sentence for the poor. The current system is socially unjust.

    Unemployment stuck at 10% (real unemployment 5 to 10 points higher)
    Can Obama force a company to hire?

    Failed stimulus (it was promised to keep unemployment no higher than 8%)
    This latest purge of the employees has created a new level of workforce capacity. Fewer people doing the same (or more) work, has saved businesses money in payroll and healthcare coverage. Obama can’t force businesses to hire. They are probably opposed to doing anything he says anyhow.

    Pissing off our allies (i.e. Germany, France, the UK, Israel)
    You’re kidding, right?

    Guantanamo still open
    Abu Grahib????

    American troops still fighting in Iraq
    Who put them there???

    American troops still fighting in Afghanistan
    War hawks put them there, and are all behind protecting our freedom.

    North Korea emboldened
    On Bush’e watch. They only grew stronger during his WHOLE presidency

    Iraq continuing to develop nuclear weapons
    I think you mean IRAN. *See above response.

    Social Security insolvent
    Not Obama’s fault. It has been bled for years.

    Medicare insolvent
    *See above response

    $7 / gallon gasoline if "Cap and Trade" gets pushed through

    Out of control flow of illegal immigrants across our southern border
    It has been that way for DECADES.


    How's that for starters?


    Most if not all of the examples from your lovely list comes to us with a big wet kiss from the failed Rove/Cheney presidency. If you want to impress us, use facts and not fiction, oilslickbeach.


    Not Obama’s fault

    Some people will just grab at anything...
  • Nayro

    Posts: 1825

    Jun 20, 2010 2:03 PM GMT
    we also didnt quite get why we werent allowed to help with the oil spill...
  • Celticmusl

    Posts: 4330

    Jun 20, 2010 2:28 PM GMT
    Wilton said
    southbeach1500 saidHow's that for starters?

    Rather, how's that for Bush carryovers? Where were you with a list like this when Bush was in the White House?

    Who started the wars you list? Who said we'd be in them indefinitely? Who caused the economic downturn, and lost those jobs? Every item in your list is deceptive right-wing propaganda and revisionism. Rewrite history, because Americans forget it so quickly. Lie, lie, and if that doesn't work, lie some more.

    Be careful with these "nails" or you might hit your own thumb with the hammer as you frantically try to pound them in.



    Not only is that most of these "nails" a carryover from the Bush administration, but these nails are what Republicans wanted at the time. Obviously they still want these nails against the American people, considering how the Republicans are voting on the hill.
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    Jun 20, 2010 2:39 PM GMT
    I've posted this in a list of facts for one of the other threads started by the promoters of disinformation. Remember, guys, when these wackos do this, just find the correct information and post it.


    3. Suspending the Jones Act. This is a Sarah Palin charge. As usual, it is groundless, shit hits the fan and see if it sticks kind of thing.

    Here is Lt. Erik Halvorson's (USCG), Chief, Joint Information Center of the Unified Area Command repsonse. He flatly denies that the Jones Act has been an issue:

    “All potential foreign technology solutions are being reviewed for their suitability to meet response requirements. As Admiral Allen said this morning, he will review waivers of the Jones Act if they are requested, but so far no requests have been made. I am not aware of any instance in which needed foreign ships or technology have not been accepted due to the Jones Act. The Jones Act is not preventing us from getting the technology that we need.”
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    Jun 20, 2010 2:52 PM GMT
    Personally, while I have had no I'll will for Obamba up until this point, there is absolutly No justifiable reason for that man to refuse Any assistance offered to help curb the crisis in the Gulf!!!

    For all that the U.S does to stick our nose into foreign affairs & all of the money we use to do it, for Once another power offers to lend us a hand to handle our fuck up and we refuse???
    I officially am putting this Gulf Oil Spill in the same category Ive placed Hurrican Katrina: As far as Katrina I'd concerned, I blame Bush for appointing a totally Unacceptable (read Unqualified) buddy of his to lead FEMA, and there by screw the organization into the ground...
    As far as Im concerned, Obamba's actions (or insuffiencient actions) regarding this oil spill is his first nail in the coffin.x
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    Jun 20, 2010 3:04 PM GMT

    Final nail in Obama's coffin? Oh, the tea baggers really are getting ahead of themselves, aren't they?"

    As others have pointed out, there aren't many other nails to speak of. Quite a few screws from W, but not too many nails.

    Even if there were a legitimate Jones Act issue regarding the oil spill (and that doesn't appear to the case), Obama would still have a little over two and a half years in office (assuming he doesn't pull a 'Palin' and head for the hills early!). So, rest easy, there will be plenty of time for coffin nails.

    I'm not saying that Obama is perfect - or even close. So far I've been disappointed to see his excessive of restraint.

    DADT could be upended with the stroke of a pen if the President used the theory of the unitary executive that was so painstakingly laid out by Bush and Co to justify torture. (That's the theory that says that, in war time, the President can do anything related to conduct of the war without interference from other branches of government.)

    The Justice Department could be instructed to drop its defense of DOMA.

    Arizona could be told that their access to ICE database and resources will be cut off for any case they do not certify is unrelated to their new profiling law.

    BP's US assets could be placed in receivership, more military assets mobilized, the Department of the Interior (and especially MMS) completely overhauled and criminal charges laid against BP, some of its officers and contractors.

    Bush and Co should be under investigation for war crime.

    I could go on, but you get my drift.

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    Jun 20, 2010 3:08 PM GMT
    JakeBenson said
    tazzari said

    No, I'm upset because he turned down legitimate help. That's not an intelligent man inheriting problems. That's a stubborn fool not accepting aid.


    this.
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    Jun 20, 2010 3:09 PM GMT
    Well, I think seeing this as the final nail is a matter of perspective, I don't even see this current situation as a nail in the coffin anyway... I think he's handling it fine, after all, he isn't superman. But I do think he should allow foreign aid. Fuck the unions when they get in the way of productivity...
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    Jun 20, 2010 3:09 PM GMT
    By the way, we can trace a lot of this disinformation back to Fox News and Sarah Palin. I love what one person wrote in response to something similar to what southbeach and socalfitness say or imply "...prove it's not true...":

    "....The burden of proof lies with you. It's impossible to prove that all available resources are being used. It's up to you to show the resources that aren't being used. If you can't show that vessels were barred from operating because of the Jones Act then you have no business trolling on this blog...."

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    Jun 20, 2010 3:20 PM GMT
    southbeach1500 said
    socalfitness said Even strong environmentalists who have traditionally supported Obama should be outraged.

    And they are.


    You guys really take the cake. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that this entire fiasco is Obama's fault.

    This pales in significance compared to 8 years of environmentally destructive behavior of the previous administration. Much of this was not because of inaction, but because of deliberate, almost malevolent. It may be the worst environmental record of any president, but it certainly is the worst in the last 50 years, and that includes some really bad ones, including Reagan and Bush Sr.

    However, a number of us have shown that this fiasco is not Obama's fault, not the Coast Guard's fault, and not anyone's fault but BP and the Bush Administration that never oversaw the proper administration of the ultra-deep water leases.
  • DallasCali6Da...

    Posts: 147

    Jun 20, 2010 3:20 PM GMT
    It gets so tiring everyday seeing Americans tear down our PRESIDENT. How about being a part of the solution?

    I challenge any criticizer to take on the job tomorrow and attempt to achieve what President Obama has done in his time as of now. I am not going to put the owness of previous President Bush because our current President is in office now and holds the responsibility.

    Did he not attempt to unite the nation/world to work together? To help mankind (Especially those who are unable to help themselves)? To accept responsibilities for our actions?

    No matter what he attempts to achieve it's simply never enough for some people. My god, give the man a break, a chance, an opportunity.

    We are 1000% better off than we were 4/8 years ago. Let history show that one human being cannot change the world in a year. Build it and it will grow. Give cycles time to generate positive outcomes. Relax, exhale and ptich in instead of always looking for a negative.
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    Jun 20, 2010 3:21 PM GMT
    fastprof saidBy the way, we can trace a lot of this disinformation back to Fox News and Sarah Palin. I love what one person wrote in response to something similar to what southbeach and socalfitness say or imply "...prove it's not true...":

    "....The burden of proof lies with you. It's impossible to prove that all available resources are being used. It's up to you to show the resources that aren't being used. If you can't show that vessels were barred from operating because of the Jones Act then you have no business trolling on this blog...."


    First of all, in your previous message you refer to promoters of info as wackjobs. Typical name calling BS. Then you bring up Fox News and Sarah Palin - nothing to do with the specif issue at hand. The Coast Guard response you cited was a polite way of saying thanks but no thanks, and I suspect it was directed from the WH, but I could be wrong on that.

    Whenever a point is made that you have trouble defending - here is your recipe:

    1. Call names disparaging the other posters.
    2. Say everything is Bush's fault, and that means everything
    3. Bring up everything you can think of to deflect the issue - here I'll help you: Bush, Cheney, Palin, Beck, Hannity, O'Reilly, Haliberton - that should keep you going for a while.

    I think name calling demonstrates an inability or unwillingness to have a logical discussion.

    Maybe I'm in the minority, but I like civil discussions, even when provocative things are discussed. I always imagine the opportunity of meeting someone in person, and would like to think our discussions would continue in a friendly way, but that is probably a stretch for some.