Can you open someone's eyes to how childish is religion?

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    Jun 19, 2010 11:16 PM GMT


    Today I had a conversation with one of my old school's classmates.
    She's a very religious muslim and she kept preaching me to return beliveing in god again, for my own good.

    Then we talked about homosexuality. I told her I can't change and I can't belive in a god who wants me to change.
    She : He wants you to change for your own good.
    Me: would you change and start loving women in the name of god?
    She: yes, I would do anything to obey him.
    Me : I will not belive in a god who ask me to do an impossible thing that he is responsible for.
    She: God tests us and sometimes it's hard. But, you have to prove your faith in god.


    This is only a small part of it. I didn't want to get more deep into it, but it's hard to argue with her about loving yourself, living happily, believing in diversity and human rights while she belives in sacrificing your life for god's favor.


    How would you argue with her ?
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    Jun 20, 2010 1:53 AM GMT


    Tell her you notice that god isn't testing her this way or hundreds of millions of other people. icon_wink.gif

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jun 20, 2010 6:18 AM GMT
    For some people there is no hope.
    I'd just ignore her and hope she doesn't try to find my address and kill me in my sleep.
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    Jun 20, 2010 6:27 AM GMT
    GHoSTic said



    She : He wants you to change for your own good.
    Me: would you change and start loving women in the name of god?
    She: yes, I would do anything to obey him.
    Me : I will not belive in a god who ask me to do an impossible thing that he is responsible for.
    She: God tests us and sometimes it's hard. But, you have to prove your faith in god.


    How would you argue with her ?


    She : He wants you to change for your own good.

    Me: He would never make me this way and ask me to change. You are telling me to change. Not him.

    She: God tests us and sometimes it's hard. But, you have to prove your faith in god.

    Me: Could you accept the possibility that it is you who is being tested, by this very conversation about me being gay?
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    Jun 20, 2010 6:37 AM GMT
    I dont understand the need to start a thread insulting a person of faith. Why cant non believers just not believe but at same time not insult the over 90% of people who do believe in god?

    Personally, i have zero apologies for believing in god and love and obey my god. For me, the biggest achievement a person can achieve is being accepted to heaven. At the end of the day that is really the only relevant thing in life. Everything else is inferior.
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    Jun 20, 2010 6:48 AM GMT
    I do believe that.......

    Many men, like us, have been born WITHOUT natural opposite sex attraction. I have recently really come to this understanding and I accept it.

    Now, a key word here in the name sake of religious followers would be this word.......DEVELOP!

    What's religion anyway? Having various virtues that are GOD LIKE? We are not GOD and we are not naturally like him. We are human, fallible and ungodly and imperfect. One is not born with these many, many GOD LIKE virtues and it's necessarily to actually DEVELOP them.

    Virtues that many straight people lack.....like.....

    LOVE
    PATIENCE
    TOLERANCE
    ACCEPTANCE
    FORGING ATTITUDE
    NONE JUDGMENTAL
    Oh this list is mile long.......like the scout oath!!

    So my point is, GOD/Universe/Supernatural Being/?? expects us to try to develop as many good virtues as possible (being in the positive flow with out negative energy and being in the Quantum field of positive flow).....I know it's a mixture....


    ....maybe the religious community should focus on them (VIRTUES)and not trying to convince poor gay boys that they are acting out in a choice type behavior and thus are sinners....when in actuality, most homosexual men would probably not like to have same sex attraction......

    Conclusion: Gay men struggle and are under extreme duress and stress and oppression and perhaps in time may over come this and develop a different attraction towards females. It just may take more than this life time......IT MIGHT TAKE ETERNITY!!!

    THANK GOD!



  • DarkSensation

    Posts: 715

    Jun 20, 2010 7:06 AM GMT

    That's easy.....show that person throughout history, how much Violence, Pain, Segregation and Suffering Religion has caused....Then tell that person without Religion, the world could have been closer to Peace already icon_biggrin.gif
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    Jun 20, 2010 7:09 AM GMT
    PAstud21 saidI dont understand the need to start a thread insulting a person of faith.

    How was this insulting to a person who believes in a god?

    Do you even read before you post?
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    Jun 20, 2010 7:10 AM GMT
    ok, so your Islamic "friend" wants to you will something to happen . . . but they don't believe in free will, do they?

    . . . Ask her how volition works, and then sit back and enjoy the laugh fest! . . . and then go and associate with a better class of people . . .

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    Jun 20, 2010 7:12 AM GMT
    GHoSTic saidHow would you argue with her ?


    Anyway...

    God made you this way. To change would be to deny the will of God. If God had wanted you to be straight he would have made you straight. Why is she spitting in the face of God?
  • vintovka

    Posts: 588

    Jun 20, 2010 7:18 AM GMT
    Let's assume for a moment that God does exist as the sort of omnipresent, omnipotent all-knowing being that monotheism generally supposes it to be.

    Taking the three big desert religions, there are Christians, Jews and Muslims who believe that their text is the only correct one and that they have discovered the one true interpretation of it. To my thinking this is the height of arrogance because it implies that we as finite and limited beings can fully comprehend the infinite. It also implies that we are competent judges of when our understanding of it has been perfected, and it presupposes that the all-powerful force of this (and any other) universe is not free to keep talking and communicating with those alive today--God is 'locked in' to some revelation that was uttered in the past, regardless of whatever people think they understand of God today.

    At the same time there have been mystics among the Christians who believe that God still speaks to us and that we have to constantly struggle to listen and that we will never fully understand this supreme being (St. Ambrose said "God is that than which nothing greater can be conceived.")

    For some in the Rabbinic tradition the scriptures should be argued about and no final understanding is ever complete--Issac became Israel because he wrestled with God (i.e. God is not something to be easily understood--the goal is to wrestle with it.)

    Some within the Islamic tradition (particularly the Sufis) have always maintained that the idea of God needs to involve constant struggle--an internal Jihad, expressed also in the concept of Itjihad, or interpretation.

    I believe that the latter group keeps God at the center of the Universe while the first group puts themselves at the center--leading to egocentrism, which is essentially the mindset of a child.

    Sorry for the long post.
  • kew1

    Posts: 1595

    Jun 20, 2010 7:25 AM GMT
    You can't, just give up & refuse to talk about religion.
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    Jun 20, 2010 7:27 AM GMT
    rofl@this thread in the mental health forum. Ironic and appropriate I say!
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    Jun 20, 2010 2:14 PM GMT
    Thank you vintovca!!

    "At the same time there have been mystics among the Christians who believe that God still speaks to us and that we have to constantly struggle to listen and that we will never fully understand this supreme being (St. Ambrose said "God is that than which nothing greater can be conceived.")

    For some in the Rabbinic tradition the scriptures should be argued about and no final understanding is ever complete--Issac became Israel because he wrestled with God (i.e. God is not something to be easily understood--the goal is to wrestle with it.)

    Some within the Islamic tradition (particularly the Sufis) have always maintained that the idea of God needs to involve constant struggle--an internal Jihad, expressed also in the concept of Itjihad, or interpretation."

    -Doug
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    Jun 20, 2010 2:19 PM GMT
    GHoSTic said

    Today I had a conversation with one of my old school's classmates.
    She's a very religious muslim and she kept preaching me to return beliveing in god again, for my own good.

    Then we talked about homosexuality. I told her I can't change and I can't belive in a god who wants me to change.
    She : He wants you to change for your own good.
    Me: would you change and start loving women in the name of god?
    She: yes, I would do anything to obey him.
    Me : I will not belive in a god who ask me to do an impossible thing that he is responsible for.
    She: God tests us and sometimes it's hard. But, you have to prove your faith in god.


    This is only a small part of it. I didn't want to get more deep into it, but it's hard to argue with her about loving yourself, living happily, believing in diversity and human rights while she belives in sacrificing your life for god's favor.

    How would you argue with her ?


    1. Your topic is well...
    2. You don't argue over something like this. It is pointless.
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    Jun 20, 2010 2:20 PM GMT
    DarkSeduction said
    That's easy.....show that person throughout history, how much Violence, Pain, Segregation and Suffering Religion has caused....Then tell that person without Religion, the world could have been closer to Peace already icon_biggrin.gif


    And no matter how often you keep kissing this frog- it still won't turn into a prince.
    Take a look at the 20th century.

    A world without religion would be a very sad place
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    Jun 20, 2010 2:30 PM GMT
    PAstud21 saidI dont understand the need to start a thread insulting a person of faith. Why cant non believers just not believe but at same time not insult the over 90% of people who do believe in god?

    Personally, i have zero apologies for believing in god and love and obey my god. For me, the biggest achievement a person can achieve is being accepted to heaven. At the end of the day that is really the only relevant thing in life. Everything else is inferior.
    I dont understand the need to start a thread insulting a person of NONBELIEF. Why cant believers just believe but at same time not insult the over 90% of people who do NOT believe in god?

    Personally, i have zero apologies for NOT believing in god and love and obey my SELF. For me, the biggest achievement a person can achieve is being accepted BY THEMSELVES. At the end of the day that is really the only relevant thing in life. Everything else is inferior

    That sounds MUCH better!
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    Jun 20, 2010 2:37 PM GMT
    PAstud21 said
    Personally, i .... obey my god. ..... At the end of the day that is really the only relevant thing in life. Everything else is inferior.
    Really?

    "Hi,lets keep it brief. I am looking to connect (no expectations) with a masc, good looking and genuine guy." from your profile..

    Genesis 19:5, Leviticus 18:22 & 20:13, Romans 1:26-27, I Corinthians 6:9; I Timothy 1:9-10

    Are you 'obeying' your god????????

    Not according to you 'gods word' passages and instructions!
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    Jun 20, 2010 2:44 PM GMT
    I wouldn't argue with her. Most likely, I'd have to tell her that conversations of that sort cannot continue between the two of you if there's any hope of maintaining a friendship.
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    Jun 20, 2010 2:55 PM GMT
    PAstud21 saidI dont understand the need to start a thread insulting a person of faith. Why cant non believers just not believe but at same time not insult the over 90% of people who do believe in god?

    Personally, i have zero apologies for believing in god and love and obey my god. For me, the biggest achievement a person can achieve is being accepted to heaven. At the end of the day that is really the only relevant thing in life. Everything else is inferior.


    amen
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    Jun 20, 2010 3:01 PM GMT
    hmmmmmm...and what would this god demanding absolute obeyance think of hot lists?

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    Jun 20, 2010 3:01 PM GMT
    MuchMoreThanMuscle saidI would not even bother. It is a hopeless battle to attempt to persuade someone like your female friend.


    I agree... there is no point in arguing with a person so narrow minded as to not even understand that NONE of us is homosexual by choice, and that changing that would be as simple as saying a few prayers or asking for HIS forgiveness.
    As a believer in God, and knowing that this was NOT a choice I personally made, how could be anything other than God's will that I am gay?
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    Jun 20, 2010 3:02 PM GMT
    jordanbobordan88 said
    PAstud21 saidI dont understand the need to start a thread insulting a person of faith. Why cant non believers just not believe but at same time not insult the over 90% of people who do believe in god?

    Personally, i have zero apologies for believing in god and love and obey my god. For me, the biggest achievement a person can achieve is being accepted to heaven. At the end of the day that is really the only relevant thing in life. Everything else is inferior.


    amen
    I ditto this:

    Genesis 19:5, Leviticus 18:22 & 20:13, Romans 1:26-27, I Corinthians 6:9; I Timothy 1:9-10

    Are you 'obeying' your god????????

    Not according to you 'gods word' passages and instructions!
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    Jun 20, 2010 3:04 PM GMT
    GHoSTic said

    Today I had a conversation with one of my old school's classmates.
    [...] she kept preaching me to return beliveing in god again, for my own good.[...]
    She: God tests us and sometimes it's hard. But, you have to prove your faith in god.
    [...]How would you argue with her ?


    I see no reason why a LGBT cannot prove one's faith in God. One is not mutually exclusive of the other. Do not fear the path for lack of seeing people walking on it. It happens every day, all the time. If one doesn't hear about it it's probably because it is done quietly and sincerely with purpose and genuine dedication.
  • barracuda68

    Posts: 66

    Jun 20, 2010 3:08 PM GMT
    GHoSTic said

    Today I had a conversation with one of my old school's classmates.
    She's a very religious muslim and she kept preaching me to return beliveing in god again, for my own good.

    Then we talked about homosexuality. I told her I can't change and I can't belive in a god who wants me to change.
    She : He wants you to change for your own good.
    Me: would you change and start loving women in the name of god?
    She: yes, I would do anything to obey him.
    Me : I will not belive in a god who ask me to do an impossible thing that he is responsible for.
    She: God tests us and sometimes it's hard. But, you have to prove your faith in god.


    This is only a small part of it. I didn't want to get more deep into it, but it's hard to argue with her about loving yourself, living happily, believing in diversity and human rights while she belives in sacrificing your life for god's favor.


    How would you argue with her ?



    I would tell her that a god that created you different from others then expects you to become like everyone else is not a god. He is a sadist.

    People of faith are people who check their rational abilities at the door. The fact that, even without bringing science into it, one book of god contradicts another (not to mention the contradictions within the books themselves) should give them pause to question their beliefs. It doesn't.

    You can't have a rational argument about getting off crack when you're talking to a crackhead. These folks are addicted to irrationality.