"WINTER SOLDIER" testemonial conference this weekend from "IRAQ VETERANS AGAINST THE WAR"

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    Mar 18, 2008 1:28 PM GMT
    John43620 saidIf we retreat, if we show weakness, change will not happen and the world will remain a mess. All of our past efforts will be for nothing. We will have allowed a tremendous opportunity to pass humanity by.
    Our generation needs to display the strength to accomplish this. We may not see fruition in our lifetime, it might take that long, but it's worth it.


    This has gone waaaaaaay past delusional into the arena of "truly nuts".

    Who said we have the ability to change the world? The Romans thought they did, and look what happened to them. Hey John, do you know the definition of "hubris"?
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    Mar 18, 2008 2:46 PM GMT
    jprichva, The Athenians and the Romans made the same errors you advocate, which led to their demise We can take a lesson from that, or not. President Bush and the "neo-cons",transcend that and the world will be better off for it. Not just Americans but all humanity. The only sticking point is, we Americans have to have the courage and strength to do it. You aren't showing that kind of courage or strength. If this world is to get better, it needs to be ushered into modernity.
    Since we Americans are the top of the pile, we have a responsibility to make that happen. The Romans didn't, the Athenians didn't, and they were eventually knocked off their modernity status.
    So jprichva, do you have a better argument? Or are you going to stick to the personal attacks? We're sharing ideas.


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    Mar 18, 2008 3:40 PM GMT
    John !!!! Your statement to cosmicjewboy, about our already living in an age of enlightenment, at the hands of all people the likes of the bushies and their neocons, is so rediculously at a parodox with their imperialistic motives and actions that it leaves me short of any words that fit such assanine beliefs. I thank God that the mentally sharp like jewboy see way beyond this propaganda of the neocon bushies and their war machine. Even better is the fact that jewboy is just one of millions of younger folk who are NOT FOOLED by their ill-lead government leaders. We are not in a war with the muslims !!!! (terrorists are a minority among them) It is opinions like yours of the supposed mission of the neocons to lead the world as they see fit, that has made, and continues to recruit terrorists. I don't care if the muslims want to live in caves (which they don't, they happen to be brilliant people) its none of our business how they want to live or be led by their religeous leaders, if thats what a group of the worlds peoples want, then its their right, and we have no business trying to make them see things as we do. THAT IS WHY THIS WAR IS ILLEGAL, BECAUSE ITS BASED ON WHAT YOU SUGGESTED AS THE NEOCON PREMISE FOR THIS WAR, BUT MOSTLY FOR CONTROL OF OIL. The best thing America can do, and it will be done by the good alert young men and wemon like jewboy, is to completely take out/vote out, of our government, any of the neocon mindset !!!! THE SOONER THE NEOCONS ARE OUT OF CONTROL THE BETTER OFF AND MORE PEACEFUL OUR WORLD WILL BE !!!!! THE NEOCONS ARE ABOUT CONTROL !!!! AND WE SHOULD FEAR WHERE THEIR MOTIVES AND EFFORTS FOR THAT CONTROL WILL LEAD AMERICA !!! TO HELL WITH THEM ALL !!!!!! BEFORE THEY TAKE US ALL TO HELL WITH THEM !!!!!!
  • yogadudeSEATT...

    Posts: 373

    Mar 18, 2008 4:07 PM GMT
    John43620 said
    Our generation needs to display the strength to accomplish this....


    No, our generation needs the wisdom to admit we fucked up, apologize, and promise to never do it again. And if you call that defeat, John, I'm fine with that. Our folly into Iraq was doomed from the start because it was unjust. The sooner our country embraces reality, the sooner all of us and the rest of the world can begin to pick up the pieces and start creating instead of destroying. Is total peace in this world ever possible? I don't know. But the opposite of war isn't peace, it's creation. Imagine that.
  • coolarmydude

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    Mar 18, 2008 4:12 PM GMT
    For reference, I have been active duty since 1992.

    In the 90s, when the President was a Democrat, people in the ranks, in droves, openly complained that we shouldn't be the police force for the world. (i.e. Bosnia)

    Since 2001, the ranks have changed their tune, under a Republican Presidency, that we should see to democarcy however long it takes and wherever necessary.

    Fuck the ranks. And John, you want to accuse "Winter Soldier" of having a biased agenda!!

    The military success (i.e. surge) is a direct result of the quality of our force, not the President's policies on Iraq. If we are to truly come up with a peaceful solution, there needs to be an economic, diplomatic and political "surge" that causes a diminished need for a military surge. The best example for this surge is European Reconstruction. But until crony-ism and corruption is checked, we won't be seeing it.

  • coolarmydude

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    Mar 18, 2008 4:16 PM GMT
    cosmicjewboy said[quote][cite]John43620 said[/cite]
    Our generation needs to display the strength to accomplish this....


    No, our generation needs the wisdom to admit we fucked up, apologize, and promise to never do it again. And if you call that defeat, John, I'm fine with that. Our folly into Iraq was doomed from the start because it was unjust. The sooner our country embraces reality, the sooner all of us and the rest of the world can begin to pick up the pieces and start creating instead of destroying. Is total peace in this world ever possible? I don't know. But the opposite of war isn't peace, it's creation. Imagine that.[/quote]


    Yeah! The issue of defeat is not in our acknowledgement, but in our mistakes that will be remembered in history. No WMDs! No emminent threat! Just the sky was falling because Bush said, "Trust me."

  • coolarmydude

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    Mar 18, 2008 4:24 PM GMT
    coolarmydude saidIf we are to truly come up with a peaceful solution, there needs to be an economic, diplomatic and political "surge" that causes a diminished need for a military surge. The best example for this surge is European Reconstruction. But until crony-ism and corruption is checked, we won't be seeing it.



    And more on that: Now, we're "allied" with Baathists and insurgents in order to stabilize the place. Can you imagine allying with the Nazis in stabilizing and reconstructing Europe? What a freaking farce!!!


    Does anyone have the time on the countdown clock for the powderkeg that's sure to be? I want to be far away when that goes! My intelligence is becoming painful...
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    Mar 18, 2008 5:11 PM GMT
    coolarmydude saidThe military success (i.e. surge) is a direct result of the quality of our force, not the President's policies on Iraq. If we are to truly come up with a peaceful solution, there needs to be an economic, diplomatic and political "surge" that causes a diminished need for a military surge. The best example for this surge is European Reconstruction. But until crony-ism and corruption is checked, we won't be seeing it.



    Forget about crony-ism and corruption being checked. The Bush clan includes the Carlyle Group and Halliburton and all the rest of the big money makers in Iraq. As long as the problems last in Iraq and they can continue to dupe the American public into believing that they should stay in Iraq, they will continue to make the really big bucks and if they fail they have a written guarantee that the American tax payer will foot their bill. They do not want cronyism and corruption to be solved for that would be the beginning of the end of their play. If you see a mystery as to why the USA is still in Iraq, simply follow the money trail.
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    Mar 18, 2008 6:24 PM GMT
    John43620 saidrotabilis, our military is successful in Iraq.

    What is your basis for that statement?

    This endeavor requires time, patience, and most of all, strength.

    It takes strength to acknowledge one's mistakes and correct them. Being afraid to admit error is not strength, it's weakness.

    Whiners like cosmic jewboy undermine the process.

    Reasoned debate is how a democratic republic like ours is supposed to make decisions. Do you have something against democracy?

    If we retreat, if we show weakness, change will not happen and the world will remain a mess.

    Ah. You are confusing "redeploy the troops" with "retreat". I do NOT advocate retreat. I advocate choosing a strategy that is focused on POSITIVE measures to help the world and win us more friends and allies, because to me that seems the best way to improve our own security. Here is an example of such a strategy:

    The Global Marshall Plan

    Excerpt:

    "The NSP is seeking to have the advanced industrial countries of the world use their resources to eliminate once and for all global poverty, homelessness, and hunger; provide quality education and health care for all; and repair the global environment. As an initial commitment, we want the U.S. to donate at least 1-2% of its Gross Domestic Product each year for the next twenty (though the amount may be less if other countries join in the effort, more if they do not)."
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    Mar 18, 2008 6:58 PM GMT
    I am so glad to read a message from someone whose been in the services and has such a clear vision of what is going on !!! Great posts!!!! and you other guys too!!! There's good reason to hope that this mess can be turned around eventually !!! We have to hope so !!!
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    Mar 18, 2008 9:51 PM GMT
    coolarmydude, European reconstruction didn't occur until the war was over, and the subsequent german insurgency was crushed.
    The civilians need to get their defecation consolidated but they can't do it without security.

    What's so wrong with employing the baathists? General Patten was reprimanded in post WW2 Bavaria for employing Nazis to run the infrustructure, because they knew how. Paul Bremer did not follow General Patten's wisdom and put the baathists permanently out of work. Don Rumsfeld made some mistakes, one of which was, he followed the Truman post WW2 plan on this issue. Is there any wonder why they became insurgents? Just because there were some initial mistakes made doesn't mean the whole project needs to be scrapped.

    I wish we'd have taken care of the whole mess in 91 but that didn't happen.

  • yogadudeSEATT...

    Posts: 373

    Mar 18, 2008 10:05 PM GMT
    John43620 said
    The civilians need to get their defecation consolidated.....


    O'kay, now we've entered the realm of the truly absurd.
  • coolarmydude

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    Mar 18, 2008 10:11 PM GMT
    [/quote]

    Forget about crony-ism and corruption being checked. The Bush clan includes the Carlyle Group and Halliburton and all the rest of the big money makers in Iraq. As long as the problems last in Iraq and they can continue to dupe the American public into believing that they should stay in Iraq, they will continue to make the really big bucks and if they fail they have a written guarantee that the American tax payer will foot their bill. They do not want cronyism and corruption to be solved for that would be the beginning of the end of their play. If you see a mystery as to why the USA is still in Iraq, simply follow the money trail.
    [/quote]


    Ummmm....that's exactly what I meant by crony-ism and corruption. Thanks for the caveat!
  • coolarmydude

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    Mar 18, 2008 10:18 PM GMT
    John43620 saidcoolarmydude, European reconstruction didn't occur until the war was over, and the subsequent german insurgency was crushed.
    The civilians need to get their defecation consolidated but they can't do it without security.

    What's so wrong with employing the baathists? General Patten was reprimanded in post WW2 Bavaria for employing Nazis to run the infrustructure, because they knew how. Paul Bremer did not follow General Patten's wisdom and put the baathists permanently out of work. Don Rumsfeld made some mistakes, one of which was, he followed the Truman post WW2 plan on this issue. Is there any wonder why they became insurgents? Just because there were some initial mistakes made doesn't mean the whole project needs to be scrapped.

    I wish we'd have taken care of the whole mess in 91 but that didn't happen.



    I'm sorry, but whatever it is you're trying to say is not logical nor factual. I really wish you would re-read some threads. What you're saying makes absolutely no sense. The counterposts to your threads aren't an attack against you or your ideas, but it's really seeming that is how you take it. In all honestly, I can't read your posts with seriousness any more.

    Perhaps you should re-introduce your ideas more articulately, not that I expect a better understanding.
  • coolarmydude

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    Mar 18, 2008 10:19 PM GMT
    cosmicjewboy said[quote][cite]John43620 said[/cite]
    The civilians need to get their defecation consolidated.....


    O'kay, now we've entered the realm of the truly absurd.[/quote]

    It means get their shit together. HAHA!
  • yogadudeSEATT...

    Posts: 373

    Mar 18, 2008 10:47 PM GMT
    coolarmydude said[quote][cite]cosmicjewboy said[/cite][quote][cite]John43620 said[/cite]
    The civilians need to get their defecation consolidated.....


    O'kay, now we've entered the realm of the truly absurd.[/quote]

    It means get their shit together. HAHA![/quote]

    Thanks for clarifying that, Coolarmydude. This conversation has been weird enough. I didn't know what the heck that meant. It's nice to see brother John has a sense of humor.
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    Mar 18, 2008 11:26 PM GMT
    coolarmydude,

    Check out the segment entitled "After the Germans Surrender"

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_S._Patton



  • coolarmydude

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    Mar 18, 2008 11:30 PM GMT
    John43620 saidcoolarmydude,

    Check out the segment entitled "After the Germans Surrender"

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_S._Patton





    Wikipedia IS NOT a quotable source!!!!!! It is not entirely factual as anyone can log information from their own perspective. Go to any college or university and the moment you use Wikipedia as a source of any kind for any piece of work or a paper is the moment you get an "F".

    Perhaps this explains your logic in these posts. However, I do commend you for at least trying.

    P.S. I have read about Patton before and not on the internet or articles.
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    Mar 18, 2008 11:50 PM GMT
    Patton?

    My daddy fought with General Patton.

    My grand-daddy fought with General Pershing.

    My great-great-great granddaddy fought with General Sherman.

    Seems our folks couldn't get along with ANYbody.
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    Mar 19, 2008 12:25 AM GMT
    coolarmydude,

    Look pal, Wickipedia was a quick reference and my copy of the "Patton Papers" is in a box in my basement. I aint digging it out for this. Besides, it was written before the internet, it doesn't have a link. There isn't much else on-line with a link. So you'll have to go to the library and look it up for yourself.

    There is one thing I'd like to address; "And if you call that defeat, John, I'm fine with that." Do you know what you're saying? You weren't even in elementary school in the Carter years, the US military was a mess and the Soviet Union was on the rise, just after Vietnam. This isn't just about Iraq. And if we did pull out of Iraq, do you think that would end the war?




  • yogadudeSEATT...

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    Mar 19, 2008 12:51 AM GMT
    John43620 said

    There is one thing I'd like to address; "And if you call that defeat, John, I'm fine with that." Do you know what you're saying? You weren't even in elementary school in the Carter years, the US military was a mess and the Soviet Union was on the rise, just after Vietnam. This isn't just about Iraq. And if we did pull out of Iraq, do you think that would end the war?


    John, you've watched too many war movies where the United States always comes home victorious. And you're not the only one. That myth is emblazoned on our nation's psyche, and it's nothing but a myth, a Hollywood ending.
    We started a war that should never have been waged, and because of that we are going to pay the price in defeat. And why should it end otherwise? Just because Hollywood has told us that America always wins?
    And for the record, brother, the war is over and has been for 3 years. It's now an occupation.
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    Mar 19, 2008 12:52 AM GMT
    I think john that the problem is that your coming from a belief that our government has all pure motives of spreading democrasy, and if these people (the Iraqies) would just accept the bushies wisdom and offer of this "wonderful freedom" he is trying to give them, and "behave themselves" if they would just play his game, you know !!! "go along to get along" everything would be fine !!!! Somehow since your basicly a "COMPANY MAN", a army yes man, one who thinks anything his government does is "A-OK", that you cannot see the "forest for the trees" All this Operation Iraqi Freedom, and Fight the Terrorists over there rather than here is a mask to cover NEOCON MOTIVATIONS OF CONTROL OF MIDDLE EASTERN OIL "FOR OUR INTERESTS" The rest of the world isn't blinded to this at all, the Bushies are an embarassment to our American Democracy, your just a holdover to well known failed policies and goals of the Bushies. WAKE UP !!!! Your the type that as the bushies neocon ship is sinking because of their failed policies, and your the last man on the last surface of the ship that isn't submerged that would be saying what a great leader bush was, it was a "JUST AND RIGHTEOUS CAUSE" "GIRGLE !!!!! GIRGLE !!!!!!! GIRGLE !!!!!!!!!! (as you go down with them)
  • coolarmydude

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    Mar 19, 2008 1:09 AM GMT
    realifedad said I think john that the problem is that your coming from a belief that our government has all pure motives of spreading democrasy, and if these people (the Iraqies) would just accept the bushies wisdom and offer of this "wonderful freedom" he is trying to give them, and "behave themselves" if they would just play his game, you know !!! "go along to get along" everything would be fine !!!! Somehow since your basicly a "COMPANY MAN", a army yes man, one who thinks anything his government does is "A-OK", that you cannot see the "forest for the trees" All this Operation Iraqi Freedom, and Fight the Terrorists over there rather than here is a mask to cover NEOCON MOTIVATIONS OF CONTROL OF MIDDLE EASTERN OIL "FOR OUR INTERESTS" The rest of the world isn't blinded to this at all, the Bushies are an embarassment to our American Democracy, your just a holdover to well known failed policies and goals of the Bushies. WAKE UP !!!! Your the type that as the bushies neocon ship is sinking because of their failed policies, and your the last man on the last surface of the ship that isn't submerged that would be saying what a great leader bush was, it was a "JUST AND RIGHTEOUS CAUSE" "GIRGLE !!!!! GIRGLE !!!!!!! GIRGLE !!!!!!!!!! (as you go down with them)



    Actually, the sobering reality is that we ALL GO DOWN with the ship. A dissenting minority is not immune to the consequences of the majority.
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    Mar 24, 2008 6:09 AM GMT
    Coolarmydude! Why did you post your pic? You know CID and the MPs are out to get anyone gay or lesbian!
    Get it off of there before it puts your career on the greenramp to the civilian land DZ.

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    Mar 31, 2008 5:58 PM GMT
    John do they really watch that close? My son is in the navy and and a heck of a lot of his buddies are gay, and I have been amazed at how open they are. I hope our friend above has no trouble !!!