RiverRising saidBeing a military vet myself, I'm pushing hard for the repeal of DADT, so don't take this the wrong way but Dan Choi is neither a hero nor a role model. He decided to be the pariah. He has brought this upon himself. Plain and simple.
Soldiers like Victor Fehrenbach are the true heroes.
http://www.gazette.com/articles/officer-62787-false-11px.html
RiverRising saidBecause Dan outed himself and Victor was outed. There is a significant difference between the two.
lissenup saidRiverRising saidBecause Dan outed himself and Victor was outed. There is a significant difference between the two.
So you are saying that Dan Choi is a pariah because he chose to come out instead of being outed? If he had remained in the closet and been outed he would be a hero?
semaj562 saidlissenup saidRiverRising saidBecause Dan outed himself and Victor was outed. There is a significant difference between the two.
So you are saying that Dan Choi is a pariah because he chose to come out instead of being outed? If he had remained in the closet and been outed he would be a hero?
I think what he meant is that Dan Choi chose to come out for political reasons, whereas Victor was just trying to do his job with no choice in the matter. I can agree in some way. A hero is someone who puts others' needs in front of their own. However, while Choi chose to come out for personal gain, you can also look at it that he did so, thinking that it may help others like himself.
semaj562 saidlissenup saidRiverRising saidBecause Dan outed himself and Victor was outed. There is a significant difference between the two.
So you are saying that Dan Choi is a pariah because he chose to come out instead of being outed? If he had remained in the closet and been outed he would be a hero?
I think what he meant is that Dan Choi chose to come out for political reasons, whereas Victor was just trying to do his job with no choice in the matter. I can agree in some way. A hero is someone who puts others' needs in front of their own. However, while Choi chose to come out for personal gain, you can also look at it that he did so, thinking that it may help others like himself.
creyente saidBoth of these men are heroes. Each in their own way.
While certainly Dan Choi stood to gain from his actions, there is no doubt in my mind that he was also working for the greater good of the community.
To say that someone is not a hero because they may stand to gain from their efforts, diminishes the lives of many: Martin Luther King, Gandhi, Desmond Tutu, George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, etc.
I am not saying Dan Choi is of the same caliber of these gentlemen, simply that his goals were no less honorable.
He willingly embarked upon a path that made him a target in order to change unjust laws. He went through a great deal of struggle in order to live up to the military standard of honesty and integrity.
While Victor Fehrenbach and other soldiers may also stand to benefit from being in the armed services, the risks they take also far out weigh the rewards. These are brave individuals whose accomplishments should be respected. However, all of them stand to gain from their service.
To diminish the accomplishments of any of these individual simply because we do not agree upon the path taken or the motivation for their cause only shows our own lack of understanding of true heroism.semaj562 saidlissenup saidRiverRising saidBecause Dan outed himself and Victor was outed. There is a significant difference between the two.
So you are saying that Dan Choi is a pariah because he chose to come out instead of being outed? If he had remained in the closet and been outed he would be a hero?
I think what he meant is that Dan Choi chose to come out for political reasons, whereas Victor was just trying to do his job with no choice in the matter. I can agree in some way. A hero is someone who puts others' needs in front of their own. However, while Choi chose to come out for personal gain, you can also look at it that he did so, thinking that it may help others like himself.
RiverRising said However, Dan outed himself during a time of war. That's not what I would call heroic. Pussyfooted, perhaps, but heroic? When so many other gays are in the Middle East giving their lives, Dan Choi conveniently comes out and gets stuck here in the states. Now that's faaaaantastic heroism.
RiverRising saidcreyente saidBoth of these men are heroes. Each in their own way.
While certainly Dan Choi stood to gain from his actions, there is no doubt in my mind that he was also working for the greater good of the community.
To say that someone is not a hero because they may stand to gain from their efforts, diminishes the lives of many: Martin Luther King, Gandhi, Desmond Tutu, George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, etc.
I am not saying Dan Choi is of the same caliber of these gentlemen, simply that his goals were no less honorable.
He willingly embarked upon a path that made him a target in order to change unjust laws. He went through a great deal of struggle in order to live up to the military standard of honesty and integrity.
While Victor Fehrenbach and other soldiers may also stand to benefit from being in the armed services, the risks they take also far out weigh the rewards. These are brave individuals whose accomplishments should be respected. However, all of them stand to gain from their service.
To diminish the accomplishments of any of these individual simply because we do not agree upon the path taken or the motivation for their cause only shows our own lack of understanding of true heroism.semaj562 saidlissenup saidRiverRising saidBecause Dan outed himself and Victor was outed. There is a significant difference between the two.
So you are saying that Dan Choi is a pariah because he chose to come out instead of being outed? If he had remained in the closet and been outed he would be a hero?
I think what he meant is that Dan Choi chose to come out for political reasons, whereas Victor was just trying to do his job with no choice in the matter. I can agree in some way. A hero is someone who puts others' needs in front of their own. However, while Choi chose to come out for personal gain, you can also look at it that he did so, thinking that it may help others like himself.
That's a lovely philosophy. Really.
However, Dan outed himself during a time of war. That's not what I would call heroic. Pussyfooted, perhaps, but heroic? When so many other gays are in the Middle East giving their lives, Dan Choi conveniently comes out and gets stuck here in the states. Now that's faaaaantastic heroism.
BlueBlur saidRiverRising saidcreyente saidBoth of these men are heroes. Each in their own way.
While certainly Dan Choi stood to gain from his actions, there is no doubt in my mind that he was also working for the greater good of the community.
To say that someone is not a hero because they may stand to gain from their efforts, diminishes the lives of many: Martin Luther King, Gandhi, Desmond Tutu, George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, etc.
I am not saying Dan Choi is of the same caliber of these gentlemen, simply that his goals were no less honorable.
He willingly embarked upon a path that made him a target in order to change unjust laws. He went through a great deal of struggle in order to live up to the military standard of honesty and integrity.
While Victor Fehrenbach and other soldiers may also stand to benefit from being in the armed services, the risks they take also far out weigh the rewards. These are brave individuals whose accomplishments should be respected. However, all of them stand to gain from their service.
To diminish the accomplishments of any of these individual simply because we do not agree upon the path taken or the motivation for their cause only shows our own lack of understanding of true heroism.semaj562 saidlissenup saidRiverRising saidBecause Dan outed himself and Victor was outed. There is a significant difference between the two.
So you are saying that Dan Choi is a pariah because he chose to come out instead of being outed? If he had remained in the closet and been outed he would be a hero?
I think what he meant is that Dan Choi chose to come out for political reasons, whereas Victor was just trying to do his job with no choice in the matter. I can agree in some way. A hero is someone who puts others' needs in front of their own. However, while Choi chose to come out for personal gain, you can also look at it that he did so, thinking that it may help others like himself.
That's a lovely philosophy. Really.
However, Dan outed himself during a time of war. That's not what I would call heroic. Pussyfooted, perhaps, but heroic? When so many other gays are in the Middle East giving their lives, Dan Choi conveniently comes out and gets stuck here in the states. Now that's faaaaantastic heroism.
Dan Choi is far more worthy of being called a hero than anyone who sits at their computer criticizing and undercutting the brave sacrifices of any gay solider. So he came out instead of being outed- big deal. Since then he's done great things to keep DADT in the media and the minds of the American people. Shame on anyone who would call chaining oneself to the White House a "pussyfooted" move. We all owe this man our respect and gratitude, so keep your mouth shut if all you have to say are insults and demeaning comments.
RiverRising saidDan Choi is more interested in serving his ego than he is in serving his fellow man and, more importantly, his fellow soldiers.
When you join the military, you join knowing full well the rules under which you are obligated to comply. DADT is explained in great detail prior to signing on the dotted line and raising your right hand. Why is that so hard to understand?
The military is not the private sector. Even men and women coming to terms with their sexuality after they've joined the service know the rules. Being outed while serving, especially during a time of war is one thing, but outing yourself during a time of war is an act of cowardice.
It is obvious that none of what I'm writing will sink in with many of you, especially those who haven't served, but know this: Dan Choi may be a hero to some, but for the majority of those whose opinions matter (e.g. military and govt. personnel working to overturn DADT), he's viewed as a psychological mess and an impediment when it comes to repealing DADT.
Honor.
RiverRising saidcreyente saidBoth of these men are heroes. Each in their own way.
While certainly Dan Choi stood to gain from his actions, there is no doubt in my mind that he was also working for the greater good of the community.
To say that someone is not a hero because they may stand to gain from their efforts, diminishes the lives of many: Martin Luther King, Gandhi, Desmond Tutu, George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, etc.
I am not saying Dan Choi is of the same caliber of these gentlemen, simply that his goals were no less honorable.
He willingly embarked upon a path that made him a target in order to change unjust laws. He went through a great deal of struggle in order to live up to the military standard of honesty and integrity.
While Victor Fehrenbach and other soldiers may also stand to benefit from being in the armed services, the risks they take also far out weigh the rewards. These are brave individuals whose accomplishments should be respected. However, all of them stand to gain from their service.
To diminish the accomplishments of any of these individual simply because we do not agree upon the path taken or the motivation for their cause only shows our own lack of understanding of true heroism.semaj562 saidlissenup saidRiverRising saidBecause Dan outed himself and Victor was outed. There is a significant difference between the two.
So you are saying that Dan Choi is a pariah because he chose to come out instead of being outed? If he had remained in the closet and been outed he would be a hero?
I think what he meant is that Dan Choi chose to come out for political reasons, whereas Victor was just trying to do his job with no choice in the matter. I can agree in some way. A hero is someone who puts others' needs in front of their own. However, while Choi chose to come out for personal gain, you can also look at it that he did so, thinking that it may help others like himself.
That's a lovely philosophy. Really.
However, Dan outed himself during a time of war. That's not what I would call heroic. Pussyfooted, perhaps, but heroic? When so many other gays are in the Middle East giving their lives, Dan Choi conveniently comes out and gets stuck here in the states. Now that's faaaaantastic heroism.
RiverRising saidDan Choi is more interested in serving his ego than he is in serving his fellow man and, more importantly, his fellow soldiers.
When you join the military, you join knowing full well the rules under which you are obligated to comply. DADT is explained in great detail prior to signing on the dotted line and raising your right hand. Why is that so hard to understand?
The military is not the private sector. Even men and women coming to terms with their sexuality after they've joined the service know the rules. Being outed while serving, especially during a time of war is one thing, but outing yourself during a time of war is an act of cowardice.
It is obvious that none of what I'm writing will sink in with many of you, especially those who haven't served, but know this: Dan Choi may be a hero to some, but for the majority of those whose opinions matter (e.g. military and govt. personnel working to overturn DADT), he's viewed as a psychological mess and an impediment when it comes to repealing DADT.
Honor.
RiverRising saidI am not conveniently forgetting anything. What I am saying is that it was terribly convenient for Dan Choi to out himself during a time of war.
In other words, he pulled himself out of combat (or any chance of ever having to return to the Middle East) when he outed himself. Why do this when the country needs you the most? What purpose does it serve, exactly? Choi didn't realize that his expertise as a linguist was needed? He was part of an elite group of service members capable of keeping his fellow soldiers and the American people safe. His abilities as an Arabic linguist were and are still very much in high demand. Now the country is facing one less linguist, so I'd argue that Choi's actions put us all at risk. He put himself before his fellow soliders and the American people.
This is not bravery. This is not honorable. This is not American.
Gentlemen, remember that we're not being drafted. Today's U.S. soldiers volunteer for this.
RiverRising saidWhile these rule are truly unjust, they were in effect prior to Choi's participation in the system.
Choi knew the rules. He chose not to abide by them, so, yeah, he pulled himself out.
* Edit
And I have signed similar petitions. I have even gone so far as to send letters to the White House and Pentagon. I have contacted my state representatives and am an active participant in various networks (both online and offline) to work towards a repeal of DADT. While I am not in favor of this bigotry, I do understand the rules of the game.
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