Creationist Lunacy Invades Science Museum.

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    Mar 30, 2008 9:48 PM GMT
    Squarejaw saidThe Bible mentions donkeys.


    Not only that, the Bible mentions donkeys that can talk ( Numbers 22:28 ).
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    Mar 30, 2008 10:08 PM GMT
    swimbikerun, I suggest you read "The Dragons of Eden" and let Carl Sagan explain it, he does a better job of it.
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    Mar 30, 2008 10:22 PM GMT
    Ummm...riiight. Like I said, no proof. Why should the burden of proving (or disproving) your statement be on me? Shouldn't you want to prove your own point on your own merit, knowledge and research? Any statement made without proof can be as easily dismissed.
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    Mar 30, 2008 10:26 PM GMT
    You are about to enter another dimension, a dimension not only of sight and sound but of mind. A journey into a wondrous land of imagination. Next stop, the Twilight Zone!


    swimbikerun said


    Of course, we know about carbon dating. We know about fossil layering. We know the Earth is not 6000 years old.
    But not when idiots start giving museum tours... in the Twilight Zone.

    [Insert creepy music]
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    Mar 30, 2008 10:27 PM GMT
    To be honest, I found this kind of funny, but I do have a couple of questions.

    Will this view of evolution damage these children's chances of a successful life?

    Do those tour guides - in their heart of hearts - really believe what they're saying?
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    Mar 30, 2008 10:30 PM GMT
    swimbikerun,
    Perhaps you aren't such a nice guy after all. Look pal, I read it in a book by a famous scientist, I cited the book to ya. I gave you a cursory description and it's very plausible. If you don't want to read it fine, I could care less. Stay stupid.


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    Mar 30, 2008 10:31 PM GMT
    makeumyne saidTo be honest, I found this kind of funny, but I do have a couple of questions.

    Will this view of evolution damage these children's chances of a successful life?

    Do those tour guides - in their heart of hearts - really believe what they're saying?


    Hmmm...no I hope that curious minds will never stop questioning and will seek out answers that are more satisfying than the pablum these nuts are feeding them.

    And yeah, I think these guys really truly do believe what they are saying. Scary!
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    Mar 30, 2008 10:33 PM GMT
    makeumyne said

    Do those tour guides - in their heart of hearts - really believe what they're saying?


    I say no.

    They've been lead on a leash just like they're doing to these poor children and I think they know it. When the tour guide was talking about T Rex he asked the children a question and didn't get the answer he was looking for, so he asked them again and prompted them to answer 'properly' with him.

    I think it's possible that they have questions about their beliefs, but it's all they know, and stepping out of a bubble and into the real world is difficult and scray.
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    Mar 30, 2008 10:44 PM GMT
    Do those tour guides - in their heart of hearts - really believe what they're saying?

    I say no.

    I disagree. Unless you've been involved in one of these thoroughly conservative evangelical churches, it's easy to underestimate just how profound their ideological beliefs can be, to the exclusion of all rational and scientific reality.

    They are the true believers. Not only that, they believe that the extent to which others persecute their ideas only affirms how wrong others are and that they are one of the very select few who have had their eyes opened by God to see the real truth.

    They have no idea how blind and brainwashed they are.

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    Mar 30, 2008 10:52 PM GMT
    For the most part you're right. I really think the brainwashing is so thorough and constant as to create mindless followers that actually believe these ideas.

    But, I do believe that they are many out there that question those beliefs silently but are too afraid to think for themselves.
  • Squarejaw

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    Mar 30, 2008 10:59 PM GMT
    Like Dr. Zaius in "Planet of the Apes" who knew the truth but thought it should be suppressed because it was better for apes to believe their religion.

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    Mar 30, 2008 11:14 PM GMT
    ShawnTO said I said the bible is a fairy tale, not the entire Christian religion. And I'm well aware of the links between medieval royals and the Christian church, I wrote a book about it afterall. My point is that you're generalizing and lumping ALL religions together, while only using one religion as a reference to prove your point.


    The Bible is a HUGE part of Christianity. You can't really separate the two.
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    Mar 30, 2008 11:21 PM GMT
    Aaron_Matthew said
    The Bible is a HUGE part of Christianity. You can't really separate the two.


    Nor is it permissible to pick and choose between which parts of the bible to believe in. Yet, people do 'cause there's some crazy shit in there!
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    Mar 30, 2008 11:52 PM GMT
    swimbikerun said
    Nor is it permissible to pick and choose between which parts of the bible to believe in.


    There are some ridiculous and nonsensical prohibitions in the Old Testament, especially in the book of Leviticus.

    Most fundamentalists will tell you on the one hand that the Old Testament no longer applies, that Jesus brought the new covenant and did away with the old law.

    But at the same time, they will always refer to Leviticus 18:22 to condemn homosexuality.

    They don't care that Leviticus also condemns planting mixed seeds in a garden, or eating shellfish, or wearing garments of blended fabrics. Things that really expose how ridiculous, archaic, and superstitious those ancient beliefs are.
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    Mar 31, 2008 12:08 AM GMT
    Global Citizen said: "There are some ridiculous and nonsensical prohibitions in the Old Testament, especially in the book of Leviticus."

    Yup. Pick up a used copy of Ken's Guide to the Bible. It categorizes all the different flavors of crazy. It's not scholarly and takes a lot out of context--which makes it a perfect match for Christianity.
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    Mar 31, 2008 1:54 AM GMT
    Having religious beliefs doesn't automatically cancel out a scientific approach even though those fundamentalists in any religion (Christian, Muslim, Judaism, Buddism, Wiccan, etc.) try to dismiss science.

    There are many scientists who will always place scientific principle before some arbitrary religious dogma while still considering themselves as belonging to a church. There are those who use religion as a framework for being a better person, as a way to get guidance in helping others, or develop spiritually without 'magic' being involved or hatred of other religions and those who are not religious. They would be large group but spend more time being altruistic, rather than promoting an "I'm right and your wrong" attitude to others and being judgmental.
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    Mar 31, 2008 2:08 AM GMT
    Aaron_Matthew said[quote][cite]ShawnTO said[/cite] I said the bible is a fairy tale, not the entire Christian religion. And I'm well aware of the links between medieval royals and the Christian church, I wrote a book about it afterall. My point is that you're generalizing and lumping ALL religions together, while only using one religion as a reference to prove your point.


    The Bible is a HUGE part of Christianity. You can't really separate the two.[/quote]

    Sigh...yawn...

    Please find and quote the post where I separated Christianity from the bible.

    All world religions are based on myths, stories based on truths. These myths contain meanings and lessons that shape the lifestyle and belief systems of the followers of the particular religion.

    This does not invalidate the religion, by the way. These myths (The Jesus myth, the Buddha myth, the Taliesin myth, as examples) help the followers to better understand the world in which they live. I understand it's hard to comprehend. The world was a very different place 2000 years ago; people lived and died within 50 miles of where they were born (that's still true to this day, however we can access other parts of the world through various means), the Earth was flat, the night sky was a ceiling, and the sun and moon rotated around the Earth.

    So...the bible is a fairy tale It has meanings and lessons that shape the lifestyle and belief system of Christians, but it's not, and never was, meant to be taken literally.
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    Mar 31, 2008 2:11 AM GMT
    dancerjack saidpeople who don't believe in religion often believe in science as a replacement. is it possible there's some gray area where they're both right without being mutually exclusive?


    I don't follow a religion but I am a spiritual person. My ideas and perceptions are based on my experiences, and for me that means living with a balance between scientific fact and theory and concepts that are based on 'faith'.
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    Mar 31, 2008 2:14 AM GMT
    Okay, that was creepy. I think the more pressing issue is, do you really want those two guys taking your kids on a field trip anywhere? They just scream "now show me on the dolly where the bad man touched you".icon_eek.gif
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    Mar 31, 2008 2:38 AM GMT
    Well I still have some hope for the kids. They are too young to have that message permanently ingrained to their head. I have a feeling most are just regurgitating what their parents and other church leaders are telling them rather than thinking it over critically. What I really fear over are the parents they interviewed. Now at that age, there is little that can turn them back.

    When I was a young kid I was taught creationism at church. My school's science curriculum did not include evolution at all, so I was being given only one side of things. Not until middle school did that begin to change, and now I'm majoring in of all things biology in college.
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    Mar 31, 2008 2:48 AM GMT
    bgcat57 saidHaving religious beliefs doesn't automatically cancel out a scientific approach even though those fundamentalists in any religion (Christian, Muslim, Judaism, Buddism, Wiccan, etc.) try to dismiss science.

    There are many scientists who will always place scientific principle before some arbitrary religious dogma while still considering themselves as belonging to a church. There are those who use religion as a framework for being a better person, as a way to get guidance in helping others, or develop spiritually without 'magic' being involved or hatred of other religions and those who are not religious. They would be large group but spend more time being altruistic, rather than promoting an "I'm right and your wrong" attitude to others and being judgmental.


    Well, as often as I defend the Christian faith on these forums, this is the type of teaching that zooms me to the moon (created by God) . I happen to think that bgcat hit the nail on the head here. These are the minority, trying to make themselves the majority, that give Christianity a bad name because of their literal interpretation and unwillingness to accept science as proven. I think it's great for someone to defend thier belief but at what point do you just go over the top with ridiculous reasoning.

    I'm a Christian and I do believe in evolution, I may not believe as some on the furthest of the left side, but then I don't support my brethern to the extreme right either.
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    Mar 31, 2008 4:23 AM GMT
    global_citizen the points you mentioned here really are point on for so many young children to highschool age, raised with indoctrination as these presenters in the video portray. Public school children who only get this stuff on occassion like in this museum won't be that affected. It may cause them to try to think these things through at an earlier age. I may have been more indoctrinated into this bible stuff more than most here, and I know just how cut off you can feel when a person realizes that this bible indoctrination is a whole lot of empty man made talk to manipulate peoples thinking. I was schooled on the campus of a religeous university, which also was in part a seminary. every day at school we had worship, we heard it at church on the weekends. "Jesus loves me this I know, for the bible tell me so" these are phrases that become the first things a kid remembers, and that part of the song "for the bible tells me so" is the real stickler. every aspect of life we were taught fell somehow under this heading "for the bible tells me so". So when a person raised like this starts to think outside of those perameters, there's a huge inner conflict. The catholics say, give me a child to teach until he is 12 years old, and he will always be a catholic. (a rough paraphrase) The point is that random visits to some exibit like this isn't going to put that much of a burden of indoctrination on a child. nothing anywhere near what a child raised in a church run school will have to deal with, so actually this might cause kids who only occassionally are exposed to this stuff to think and question things rather than buy into it wholesale after a couple exposures. SO DON'T BE TOO WORRIED ABOUT THEIR BEING DAMAGED
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    Mar 31, 2008 7:01 AM GMT
    ShawnTO said[quote]Please find and quote the post where I separated Christianity from the bible.


    "I said the bible is a fairy tale, not the entire Christian religion."

    That distinction you made is what prompted my comment.
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    Mar 31, 2008 7:06 AM GMT
    All of Christianity's principles come from the Bible. I'm not saying I necessarily disagree with parts of the Bible being fabricated, but I don't think you can criticize the Bible without also criticizing Christianity as a whole, since Christianity derives its moral code from the Bible.
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    Mar 31, 2008 7:21 AM GMT
    Brainwashing at work. icon_eek.gif Those kids were homeschooled. Hmm... probably coz their parents don't want them learning all the dirty science lies? I was relieved to know they weren't a MUSEUM-SPONSORED tour. LOL It's funny how he doesn't seem to take questions, just give out answers. icon_rolleyes.gif

    "What's the J-word?"

    Jabberwocky!

    "Everybody repeat it with me!"

    Jabberwocky!

    He actually said "It's a great fairytale, but not good science". Irony! ROFL

    And teeth did evolve from scales, so did hair and feathers and nails.

    I pity those children. Look at what one of them said "With all of the damage happening to Earth these days, it would've fallen apart by now in millions and billions of years." These are KIDS forchrissakes.

    But that may well be why they do the tours in the first place. Snag em young! icon_wink.gif

    John43620 saidThe Genesis account does demonstrate some knowledge of an evolutionary process.
    The first that comes to mind is the "Serpent". After Eve was tempted, serpents would have to crawl on their bellies. Snakes have the remnants of leg bones in their skelature.
    The other is the account of Eve having to bear children in pain. If Eve was not human but a precurser animal and gave birth to a genetic mutant human with a larger head to accomodate a larger brain, it would cause tearing and pain. Having a larger brain would allow the humans to become a successful species and thrive.
    (I didn't think that up though, Carl Sagan suggested it in his book "the Dragons of Eden".)


    Erm...

    Also! Noah's Ark was actually a Spaceship! Since no boat can actually fit all the animal species in the world and nourish them for 40 days. Hmmm...