What's with the misogyny?

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jul 27, 2007 7:31 PM GMT
    For clarification...

    misogyny (n) the hatred of women by men.

    "escaladeboi" wrote to me asking: hey i read ur forum post, are u a girly guy,...

    I am not sure the reference, but it struck a cord with me... much like the wonderous "str8 acting" male... I was wondering... why are we striving to place people in the uber-masculine group or the "girly" group? Why ever happened to the average man?

    I emailed him back responding that I am comfortable with both my masculinity and my femininity. I am not ashamed that I don't like watching sports (it's really boring watching a bunch of overweight men in spandex running around). I am also not ashamed that I hate children and the color purple.

    Am I the only person that is able to understand that a two-gender system is both a fallacy and strictly an anthroplogists way of catagorizing and seperating the species?
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    Jul 27, 2007 8:10 PM GMT
    Maybe we need to explore the definition of "jock." Some people seem to associate "jock" with juvenile male behavior, and that may be the accepted definition, young, male, athletic, masculine. I think women and non-stereotypical men can be "jocks" too, but it is a rather loaded word, and we probably need to come up with a good definition of it.
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    Jul 27, 2007 10:19 PM GMT
    Where's Chuck and Scally? They'll set you sissy marys right.
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    Jul 27, 2007 11:52 PM GMT
    Yes, where are them. I kinda miss them. They kinda tone down a little bit bit nowaday.
    I want the old Chuck and Scally back..
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    Jul 28, 2007 1:29 AM GMT
    Oh man... I'm sure, by now, that some folks on this forum are tired of my sweeping diatribes of gay hypocrisy... But I think you are right to be annoyed.

    There is substantial, widely tolerated, and even broadly accepted misogyny in the gay world. It ranges from comments like the one you mention all the way up to outright gynophobia. (i.e., Gay men who are actively *grossed out* by the thought of naked women or lesbians "Eeeew! Muff divers!" -- often the very same people who jump down the throats of straight men who express disgust at the thought of two men).

    I also consistently find it amusing how many self-described "straight-acting" or "masculine" men couldn't pass for straight any more than Will Smith could a Swedish ballerina.

    You are not the only person who realizes this. You're just probably part of a small minority of people who are actually comfortable in their own skin.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jul 28, 2007 3:05 AM GMT
    Image is everything.

    In this world, your image is what will get you places. In the bear world, aside from the physical, a masculine, bad boy with a good amd filthy heart is what you need to project if you want to fuck and be with anyone of your choosing.

    In the real world, the more physically and charismatically attractive people find you, the better you are treated. If you ask for something you want with a smile, your chances of getting it are astronomically higher to get what you want, or put yourself in position to get more in the future. The more athletic you look, the more you will be accepted by athletic people, etc etc etc.

    Why are people surprised that this applies to masculinity? If you want someone that focuses on being masculine (a waste of time in my book), then they will stress importance on the same thing. If you want someone with a nice body, then odds are, they will want the same thing. A person's image is an extension of who they want to be, and in the case of relationships, extends to who they want to be with.

    There are people that don't care about image, but they are FAR outnumbered. You are on a site called realjock, and you openly disrespect sports. What kind of image do you project?
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    Jul 28, 2007 3:40 AM GMT
    Hell, who wants to watch sports? I wanna play! ;-)
  • NickoftheNort...

    Posts: 1416

    Jul 28, 2007 9:14 AM GMT
    For an in-depth look into the misogyny that permeates throughout most of our species, check out this site:

    I Blame the Patriarchy
    An impressive blog by Twisty, which brings gross instances of misogyny to light and maintains a vigorous discussion within its comments section. If you are new to understanding patriarchy and how it affects all of our lives, it may be a bit too strong.

    For a shorter look, I'll throw in some of my 98 cents :-)

    Warning: my cents are simplified and commonly intuitive; if you want for me to provide you with sources to support my intuitive claims, just give the word :-D

    1st cent - misogyny is the hatred of everything associated (through social construction) with women by men AND women

    2nd cent - through social construction, we ascribe power and strength to the male while ascribing submission and weakness to the female; with this perspective, the female is passive and that which actions are done onto while the male is active and that which acts

    3rd cent - through the breakthrough efforts of social movements during the 1800s and 1900s, the power privileged onto the white male is increasingly challenged

    4th cent - some of these challenges have brought about a male role model crisis; the (more or less) uniform male aspirations of dominating and maintaining the source of direct power over others (primarily the family) are threatened by the social acceptance of alternative male and female role models

    5th cent - hypermasculinity (├╝bermasculinity) is a common response to this threat

    More cents will follow; in the meantime, this fellow of androgyny will head off to the store with his go-get'em mother ^_^
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    Jul 28, 2007 9:40 AM GMT
    I think it's quite strange that "straight acting" is something that has become desirable amongst the gay community. Surely, straight-acting simply means having sex with women? I don't have a problem with bisexuality, but I do think it's a bit crass to suggest that gay-acting means that you wear neckerchiefs and lisp, while straight acting means that you're normal.

    On the mysogyny issue, I don't really know why this is such an entrenched aspect of homosexual society. I rather like women, in the same way that I rather like men. I don't think their are particularly strong traits ascribable to either sex, except by virtue of societal conditioning. While I have never had any interest in sex with women, I don't think they're ugly or inferior. I have no interest in having sex with lots of things that I still think are beautiful. The flower arrangement on my desk, for example
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    Jul 28, 2007 9:49 AM GMT
    Ihrtnalgenes, I wouldn't have even bothered to respond. I equate such terms with the equally inappropriate "straight-acting." It is common for even gay men to stereotype others.

    At any rate, I am glad that you're comfortable in your skin...and you should be.

    Have a great weekend! Daniel
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    Jul 28, 2007 10:22 AM GMT
    I'm with Sureshot on this one. Also, being "straight acting" doesnt necessarily mean someone is acting, it could mean they tend to be more masculine than the stereotype. That also doesn't mean they aren't regular guys, or that they hate "girly" guys. Some people are just more girly than others. Some might even consider this OP "girly" because this thread could be perceived as "drama".

    Your definition on your own profile states the average man as:

    college educated, employed, and not changing the world, just living.

    So what happened to this man? He's everywhere according to these standards. However, I'm also assuming your version of the average man also is in touch with his "masculinity" and "femininity" the same way you are. Thats fine, but average men in reality are not this way so your fantasy man is not really average. Hes average to you because that how YOU are.

    As far as you being the only person who understands gender identities are nurture and not nature, thats not necessarily true. Although gender is learned, having a feeling of identity and belonging is nature. People like to fall into groups, thats just a fact of life. Posing the question if you are the only one shows in and of itself that you consider yourself to be part of a certain group of people who thinks one way and are curious to see who else shares your values. There is nothing wrong with being part of a group or identifying with one and taking up its behavior and culture so long as it doesn't impose on others. You do it, the "straight acting" guys do it, and everyone else does it.
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    Jul 28, 2007 10:53 AM GMT
    When a guy says he's straight-acting (or asks another presumably similarly sexually-oriented guy if he's a gurly guy), it makes me think that he:

    is ashamed of his sexual orientation and wishes that he were heterosexual,

    dislikes the openness with/in which others of similar sexual orientation live,

    unconsciously desires to display those characteristics latently-subdued within himself, or

    has an interest in that other guy.

    My point is, when a guy says that he's masculine, which is completely subjective, I don't think anything negative. However, when a guy says he's straight-acting, I think to myself, "there are issues there."
  • gymingit

    Posts: 156

    Jul 28, 2007 4:19 PM GMT
    LMAO... YOU GUYS REALLY MAKE MY DAY!! All I can see is the gurly guy being ALL TOP and able to knock you on your ass.... lol

    That said, stereotyping has really done a number on our brains. Recently, I have had to ask myself, Do I really know who I am as a gay guy? The reason: I met up with a QUEEN that was a STRICT TOP!! That of course is hysterically funny for me and so I had to re-evaluate myself. I am me and most everyone that meets me, loves me. I love people and I have found myself, in my profiles, referrencing myself as being versatile in personality.

    I can be who I need to be with anyone. I guess it's a little like acting(which I have done some local theater from Young Mr.Scrooge to Robert E. Lee as well as working towards a degree in teaching), but you fall into a role and just go with it. Most people are at different stages in their life in all things, such as education. A person learns to adjust and adapt when speaking with different people from all different walks in life. This especially helps in work and as well as social settings.

    So... let people be themselves. We all have our preferrences..... from color hair to body type... just because we're not interested doesn't mean they're not beautiful. Same in personality as well.

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jul 28, 2007 6:03 PM GMT
    yup. as usual, the answer to identity issues leads to the obvious answer: be yourself and be happy.
  • GQjock

    Posts: 11649

    Jul 28, 2007 8:16 PM GMT
    You know ... this "str8 acting" stuff is really getting boring
    guys...if you like masculine men mazel tov
    ring a bell or something
    why do you have to tell "yer buds" about it?
    Frat boy stuff wears thin after a while
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jul 29, 2007 1:32 AM GMT
    A few responses...

    McGay and zak; i appreciate your humor, as I have read many of the extremely violent messages of that scally fellow. yeah, i don't really miss him either.

    sureshot; i am not saying that i surprised by this at all. but i am shocked that so many people seem to think it's ok.

    owl; i guess that i would have to disagree with you on the "str8 acting" statement being that the use of that term is rarely, if ever, used to denote someone who is masculine, neither is it term that is positive in its regard towards people who are not "str8 acting". not to mention the fact that term is openly used by individuals trying to seperate themselves from being referred to as gay, which, i might add, they are.

    owl i also would disagree that people like to fall into groups. as many examples show people stive to be themselves, which sometimes lands them in a group of their peers, but it does not necessarily show that people strive to be in that group. if you want examples i would be pleased to help you.

    dfrw; amein to that.

    GQ, et al; for those of you that are refering to the "str8 acting" argument.. i used that merely as an example.. i am asking about misogyny. and more directly i asked about people's beliefs in society two-gender system.
  • jrs1

    Posts: 4388

    Jan 25, 2010 7:29 AM GMT
    this shall be short and ' sweet: '

    - there is a serious issue with gay men and the concept ' masculinity. '
    there is a such thing as liking who you like, but ... how can it be that so many gay men like the same characteristic in a guy? " straight-acting-masculine-a-man-not-a-woman " ... sure, there are some guys who are more feminine than what you may be accustomed to ... but that's your reasoning for writing off a potentially wonderful person? I am asking because I don't get it. we're not all the same, so why conform to a standard that has been administered to cause separation and asinine disrespect of another gay guy?

    - the issue with republican gays and other politically-affiliated gays ...
    although it is difficult to imagine a gay man siding with issues that may negatively affect being a gay person overall ... his entire party is not to be blamed ... but instead individuals in that party should be identified and giving cited reasoning as to why such actions cause such feelings. metta8 does a good job of this.

    - oy. if you want to know if a guy is a top or a bottom ... get to know him and then, if you are privileged to get him in bed, then you're sure to find out.
    otherwise ... be a bit mindful of what you say to another guy ... this is more for those who write those creepy letters and drive-by IMs with your dick out and asking to ' see muscles. '

    I figured that since the subject is misogyny, that I would write about some issues that immediately come to mind concerning the gay culture. not all of what I am writing applies to every gay man ... but a good deal of them. I am not trying to make any generalizations, nor am I trying to tell people they are awful individuals ... I would do that to their faces if I had enough reason to say so. I am just writing because, well, I felt that these forums are read by many men and someone else out there may have something they could add about issues they wish to see heading in a more stabilized direction.

    such as:

    - men simply wanting be in a relationship just to be in a relationship. thereby equating their significant other to that of a pet. the " I'll get to you when I can and you'll like it because you're no longer single and neither am I " attitude. yikes.

    it's a conformity to the hegemonic culture that makes me think it all really might be ...

    Universal Mind Control