Dan Savage vs. Brian Brown: The Dinner Table Debate

  • metta

    Posts: 53189

    Aug 22, 2012 7:34 PM GMT
    Dan Savage vs. Brian Brown: The Dinner Table Debate

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    Aug 22, 2012 9:28 PM GMT
    just watched this a few hours ago actually, i think Brown and Savage both presented their arguments well. they both definitely believe what they're saying is true. however, Brown is fundamentally wrong, plain and simple and the "two sides of humanity" argument is clearly a cop out.

    Brown instead of disregarding people with a different view (perhaps atheist), he instead invokes the "human" aspect of marriage, as if its a natural invention (oxymoron i know), saying its intrinsically 1 man/ 1 women, what he doesn't take into account is the fact that marriage exist in every society and the monolith of it is completely dependent on the society in which its based upon.
    Browns argument seems more emotional and less logically and factually based... clearly New York has fallen off the map by now icon_confused.gif

    I, objectively, agree with Dan Savage.
    idk, just my tree fiddy...
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    Aug 22, 2012 10:24 PM GMT
    I made myself watch this to completion even though I found it incredibly frustrating.

    It confirmed my worst fears about Brown's position, which is that it is based solely on a personal and insistent belief in 'truth'. I don't think that's any ground for good civil rights. For myself, I didn't find his arguments at all well made, I found them repetitive, groundless and stupidly one-dimensional.

    I thought that at least Savage was well-prepared, and although I support the basic position (I'm in a civil partnership in the UK) I thought even he was infected with a surprising amount of conservatism. Still, I thought he was the stronger speaker.

    My other slight misgiving actually was that the moderator was a little partial (albeit perhaps in Savage's favour). It was also kinda wierd that Savage was filmed talking about marriage with a beatific statue behind him...a bit of poetic license there, maybe...

    anyway, thanks for posting!
  • rafiki87

    Posts: 331

    Aug 23, 2012 12:36 AM GMT
    Brown's arguments were rather circular, in my opinion. I also think he dug his heels too much and went with an all-or-nothing argument with civil marriage.

    Though I'm not at all surprised that Brown did what he did and said what he said being the president of NOM.

    From a gender studies perspective, I think that marriage is the new "heterosexual" identity.

    Queer historian, George Chauncey presented in Gay New York: Gender, Urban Culture, and the Making of the Gay Male World, 1890-1940, that in America during the mid-30s, male sexual identity went through a radical change. Initially, masculinity was determined by one's role as being the penetrative partner in sexual intercourse - be it opposite-sex or same-sex sexual intercourse. During the mid-30s, however, the shift in having solely female partners as a determinant of one's masculinity came into being. He speculates that it was a result of the First Wave Feminist Movement and a class struggle between the working and upper-class.

    The way I see it, marriage and having a family is the new "superior" identity in contemporary America. Now that marriage equality is being challenged, I'm curious what will the next identity be...

    What I really liked about the debate was when the mediator prodded Brown what metrics does he have to back his argument that same-sex marriage would affect the current marriage situation, Brown didn't have any. Funny how Brown weaseled his way out of that question and the mediator did not call him out on it.

    I would've wanted to see Pierce Morgan mediate that one instead.
  • metta

    Posts: 53189

    Aug 24, 2012 10:10 PM GMT
    Opinion: NOM’s Brian Brown Is Lying About The Anti-Gay Regnerus Study

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    Aug 24, 2012 10:28 PM GMT
    Brown's obnoxious laugh is like a cheese grater to my ears.
    His arguments were far from convincing and largely made up of straw man and slippery slope arguments (despite him trying to say they weren't). The rest of the time he would shift the topic of focus from what Savage was trying to argue onto something completely unrelated.

    Brown is the worst kind of bigot, his bigotry isn't from ignorance. He has heard all the arguments from the Pro-Marriage-Equality side, and is well informed of all the data, but is still happy to perpetuate lies and trot out discredited studies to further his cause.