The Palestine Paradox

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Sep 05, 2012 5:15 PM GMT
    1. The Arab narrative claims that after WW I the European/colonial powers, pursuing a policy of "divide & conquer", drew random borders were previously they hadn't existed in the Ottoman Empire (for 400 years and before that).

    2. Then they turn around and claim that these random borders magically delineated an allegedly pre-existing ethnic group - "Palestinians"?

    Which one (or both?) is false?!
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Sep 05, 2012 8:06 PM GMT
    Just report Wolverine4 to RJ again.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Sep 05, 2012 10:19 PM GMT
    GalileePAL saidJust report Wolverine4 to RJ again.

    LOL. Looks like I hit a raw nerve.

    Of course, the above is rich coming from IanCT, who just got his account removed after repeatedly calling a fellow RJer a "n**ga".

    The question is one of substance and is just as valid as any of the 10x as many anti-Israel threads posted here.

    It doesn't require powerful critical thinking skills to realize that the real trolls are those who have made personal attacks in an effort to derail/hijack the topic.

    Report them - seems it worked in the case of RLD who I'm told is no longer puking his nonsense all over.

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Sep 13, 2012 6:33 AM GMT
    So back to the topic:

    If the British (and/or other European/colonial powers) implemented a "divide & conquer" policy by drawing random borders, how is it that these random borders magically delineated a pre-existing ethnic group today known as Palestinians?
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 7105

    Apr 08, 2016 9:24 PM GMT
    GladiatorSam> Golan Heights never was part of Palestine. It was part French mandate of Syria. Under the british mandate, the West of Jordan was called Palestine and east of Jordan was called transjordan.

    The British ceded the Golan from the Mandate of Palestine (which included Trans-jordanian/eastern Palestine) to the French Mandate of Syria.

    But what Sam is actually conceding is that there was no "Palestine" prior to WW I.

    See also:

    Arabs (like Arabic) NOT indigenous to Israel

    The Emergence Of Palestinian Arab Nationalism In The Mid-To-Late 20th Century
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Apr 09, 2016 6:48 AM GMT
    Yes there was. Read a history book. Falistin newspaper?
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 7105

    Apr 09, 2016 4:16 PM GMT
    The Falastin (as they spelled it in English) Newspaper originated in 1911. Its founders were supporters of a pan-Arab state. But seriously, this is the sum of the sock puppet's "history"? The name of a newspaper that didn't appear until the 20th century?


    The Emergence Of Palestinian Arab Nationalism In The Mid-To-Late 20th Century
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 7105

    Jun 09, 2016 7:54 AM GMT
    AyaTrolLiar founcer spouted
    For the idiot's benefit, I'll point out that al-Lajjun is north of "Samaria"

    It's funny watching the half-wit trying to poke fun and pretend I made a mistake when the idiot hasn't a clue.
    That's the problem with uneducated flunkies, no matter how little they know, they think they know it all, clueless of how much they don't know.

    Let's first review the data:

    Muqaddasi> [985 CE] The District of al-Urdunn. Its capital is Tahariyya [Tveria/Tiberias]. Among its towns are Qadas, Sur [Tyre], Akka [Akko/Acre], al-Lajjun, Kabul, Baysan [Beit She'an]

    Muqaddasi> [985 CE] The District of Filastin. Its capital is al-Ramla. Its towns... Amman.

    Gerber> [1496 CE] It stretched from Anaj, a point near al-Arish, to Lajjun, south of the Esdraelon valley. It was thus clearly equivalent to the Jund Filastin of classical Islam.

    Lajjun was a border town, and that border ran at a 45 degree angle toward Amman
    Thus including Jenin in Urdunn rather than the Filastin District, as well as the other cities listed.
    Haifa, Akka/Akko/Acre, Tzfat/Safed, Tahariyya/Tveria/Tiberias, Jenin, Beit-She'an/Baysan and Nazareth - NOT in Jund Filastin.

    Contemplate the ridiculous claim that Jesus of Nazareth (a Jew from Judea) was "Palestinian".
    Despite dying more than 100 years before the Romans (European occupiers!) renamed Judea as "Palestine".
    And Nazareth NOT being in Jund Filastin, the military district of foreign Arab empires some 1,000 years ago who ruled from afar.

    How did northern Israel become part of "Palestine"?
    Review the OP.

    While the AyaTrolLiar pretends that Jund Filastin wasn't part of Syria (Al Sham), and while he celebrates the title of Muqaddasi's book

    AyaTrolLiar> al-MuqadassI, The Best Divisions for Knowledge of the Regions (interesting title eh?)

    AyaTrolLiar neglects:

    Regions within the Islamic Empire, and "Filastin" isn't a even region but a DISTRICT of Al-Sham (Syria)

    Under the foreign Arab empires who invaded, conquered and occupied the land (ruling it from afar), there was a formal military district called "Filastin" (which was roughly "equivalent" - to use Gerber's word - to today's southern Israel and southern Jordan - including Amman). That ended in the 11th century. Thereafter there was knowledge of this former formal district, in the form of a vague geographic area.

    Today there is a formal "district" in Michigan known as "Wayne County".
    That doesn't mean there is a "Waynist" ethnic group.
    That doesn't mean that in 1,000 years there needs to be a Wayne nation/state distinct from Michigan.
    (Let alone with half of Wayne County excluded, instead including half of Washtenaw County).

    AyaTrolLiar> Jerusalem - Capital Of Palestine

    At the time that there was a formal district of Falastin, its capital was NOT Jerusalem but Ramle.
    (As Muqaddasi notes above.)

    Thereafter, how could Jerusalem be the "capital" of a "district" at a time that the district didn't exist?!

    Never in history was Jerusalem an Arab capital. Not even the "district" capital of foreign Arab empires that invaded, conquered, occupied and colonized the land.

    Jerusalem Was NEVER An Arab Capital,
    Not Even Of Jund Filastin ~1,000 Years Ago, A Military District Of Foreign Arab Empires That Occupied Israel
    (Spain Was Occupied For Longer, And More Recently)
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 7105

    Aug 02, 2017 5:25 PM GMT
    From the Tel Aviv thread:

    Consider that there are ethnic Germans on the Polish side of the border and vice versa.
    It's not the border that determines the ethnicity of people.

    Yet in "Palestine", they pretend that Palestinian ethnicity is ancient but magically dependent on which side of a 20th century border one was on, and worse, they simultaneously complain that this border was drawn by foreign European powers.

    AyaTrolLiar> The natives knew what Palestine was before the British marked it out

    At the time, the Arabs (not "natives" but many of them immigrants in recent centuries - including the Negev Bedouin) rejected the existence of "Palestine" and "Palestinians" - terms they associated with Jews. They opposed an independent (via Mandate) Palestine, supporting King Feisal in Damascus - saying they were Syrians. When the French deposed him, for the next decades they pursued being part of a Pan Arab state.

    AyaTrolLiar> I never made any claim that Palestinian identity was "ancient"

    Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

    AyaTrolLiar> Yes, the borders were arbitrary

    So how many "Palestinians" ended up in Lebanon or Syria?
    How many Syrians or Lebanese ended up in Mandate Palestine?
    ZERO. How could that be?

    Because when those borders were drawn after WW I, there were no "Palestinians".

    And no, the borders were not "arbitrary".
    The borders of Mandate Palestine - the Jewish state-to-be - were drawn based on Jewish history.
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 7105

    Jan 09, 2019 3:39 PM GMT
    An interesting comment from a friend of mine who is a member of the famous Palestinian Arab Dajani family:

    || It is far easier to define what it means to be a Palestinian: someone connected to a specific place and space that defines her or him. Being Palestinian requires no specific language, religion, ethnicity, or culture. Historically, one did not need to be an Arab to be a Palestinian -- witness the Armenians

    Confirming that "Palestinian" is not an ethnicity let alone ancient.
    It's anyone who happened to live within poorly defined borders at a particular (if varying) time.
    Often half a century prior to the start of the Mandate, to exclude Jews - but not Arabs who arrived later.
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 7105

    Jan 29, 2020 6:06 AM GMT
    AyaTrolLiar> Lebanon had always been considered a part of Syria before the French

    MWolverine> It was the Ottomans who carved out Lebanon, well before the start of the French Mandate.
    MWolverine> "Palestine" was likewise "considered a part of Syria" before WW I (and the start of the French Mandate)

    AyaTrolLiar> the Independent Sancak of Jerusalem, which incorporated Jerusalem, Gaza, Beersheba, Hebron, Jaffa, Nazareth (and originally Acre & Nazareth too), predated the Vilayet of Beirut by 16 years.

    This was the Mutasarrifate of Jerusalem, not Palestine. The difference between that and a Sanjak is the Ottoman hierarchy.
    What changed is that this region thereafter reported not to Damascus (Syria!) but directly to Constantinople (Istanbul).

    Unable to get anything right, the idiot confuses the inclusion of the Sanjak of Acre/Sidon in the Jerusalem Elayet (which existed for a mere 2 months during the reorganization) as the city being included in the Jerusalem Mutasarrifate. It was not and never was. Otherwise Sidon would have been part of "Palestine", too.

    As for Nazareth, from 1906-1917 it was included in the Jerusalem Mutasarrifate as an EXCLAVE. Simply as a paperwork courtesy to Christian pilgrims so they could visit not just Jerusalem & Bethlehem in the Mutasarrifate of Jerusalem, but also Nazareth in the Sidon Sanjak in the Beirut Vilayet.

    AyaTrolLiar> Unlike "Lebanon" or "Lubnan" (historically the name of a mountain), "Palestine" or "Filastin" always denoted an area. Compare "Jordan" or "Urdunn" (which denoted not an area but a river).

    Except that the area of Jund Filastin during the Arab Empires (638-1099) spanned the east and west banks of the Jordan River and extended only as far north as Caesarea (well south of Acre and Nazareth). The northern halves of both modern Israel and Jordan were then the area known as Jund al-Urdunn - ergo not just the name of a river. (The Arab invaders from the south had a north/south division, unlike the east/west division known to us today and in Biblical times.)

    The Mutasarrifate of Jerusalem was only established in 1872 and its northern border was just north of Jaffa - some 40 miles south of Caesarea (which was at the northern end of the Arab Jund Filastin colony until nearly 800 years earlier).


    AyaTrolLiar> Palestine was considered part of Bilad al-Sham, not Suriya.
    Lebanon was Suriya.

    ROTFL. Damascus (Syria) was a province of Bilad al-Sham.