The Myth of the Masculine Gay Man

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    Sep 07, 2012 9:43 AM GMT
    ArticleEmotionally, he’s wrought with self-esteem issues about his body or his relationship with his family.


    That is actually true to some extent. I had self-esteem issues when I was 15 years old, and my relationship with my family kinda jumps up and down depending on their mood and mine.
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    Sep 07, 2012 11:13 AM GMT
    Scruffypup saidI accidentally found this article just now. It sums up what I was trying to say in another thread about masculinity in gay men. Thought you guys might find it interesting to discuss. http://www.altdaily.com/blogs/news-blogs/opinion-blogs/the-myth-of-the-masculine-gay-man.html


    Weren't you the guy the other day that created a thread about trolls? This seems to be right up there with trolling.

    Unless that thread was pure satire.
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    Sep 07, 2012 12:04 PM GMT
    Well hopefully in the 3 years since this article was written the author has moved on to other career challenges, perhaps in the fast food service industry.

    Just as a personal anecdote for counterpoint, I'll restate something I've posted here before: it was discovering that gays can be masculine that brought me OUT of denial, not kept me hidden there. It was failure to fit the effeminate gay stereotypes that put me into confusion and denial for years. My reasoning had been that if I had no desire to outwardly BEHAVE like an effeminate gay, I therefore couldn't BE a gay, despite always realizing I was attracted to men.

    I tried to dismiss my same-sex interest as some kind of kinky (1960s term) perversion that was offset by my otherwise masculine traits. I also conveniently blocked out of my mind some personal traits that are indeed viewed as being stereotypically gay, although actually having gay sex was not one of them.

    And so once I was confronted with masculine gays in person, following my Army retirement and return to the civilian world full time, my "defense mechanism" began to crumble. I could no longer use masculinity as proof that I was straight. And as I began to do a serious, comprehensive self-evaluation I couldn't overlook the very obvious signs of who I am.

    But contrary to the author's assertion here, I value self-awareness and understanding more than public image, despite having gotten it wrong for so many years in my own case. If I was gay then I was gay, and I was long overdue to "get with the program" per the Army phrase.

    Because despite the bad public image that gays had in 1995, one thing I did know about myself is that I'm a good & decent person. And if I'm gay, then being gay can't be as wicked and damnable as society had told me, and I certainly wouldn't lose my masculinity over it.

    So that I didn't conform to the author's contention that being masculine would keep me from accepting my orientation, once I understood that I am gay. I think it may have even helped me, because my masculinity existed on its own merits, it wasn't dependent on my being called a straight, and would survive my being known as gay.

    And so I used that masculine assertiveness and directness of purpose to take a risky chance, to come out all at once without delay, before I'd spent a single day in the gay community. It was the best decision I ever made. icon_biggrin.gif
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    Sep 07, 2012 1:14 PM GMT
    Wow. What a nasty bunch of queens. I post an article for discussion and you attack ME personally? I didn't write the fucking article. You're all too immature to simply discuss a topic without attacking the OP. You're just like a bunch of hyenas, especially you Cash. Never anything productive to say...only personal attacks. Meanwhile, I get private emails from people supporting me but too chicken shit to post here for fear of being attacked also. You're a vile group of trash and have me questioning why on Earth I'm even on this site.
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    Sep 07, 2012 1:15 PM GMT
    GigoloAssassin said
    nicodegallo said
    GigoloAssassin said
    nicodegallo saidLooks like I will be donating my pesetas elsewhere.


    What's a pesetas?


    Spain's former currency and perhaps future currency, lol.


    I thought it was some dish. I'm hungry now. icon_smile.gif


    LOL I did too!
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    Sep 07, 2012 1:22 PM GMT
    Scruffypup saidWow. What a nasty bunch of queens. I post an article for discussion and you attack ME personally? You're just like a bunch of hyenas, especially you Cash. Never anything productive to say...only personal attacks. Meanwhile, I get private emails from people supporting me but too chicken shit to post here for fear of being attacked also. You're a vile group of trash and have me questioning why on Earth I'm even on this site.


    There's the door ------------------------------------->
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    Sep 07, 2012 1:24 PM GMT
    Scruffypup saidWow. What a nasty bunch of queens. I post an article for discussion and you attack ME personally? You're just like a bunch of hyenas, especially you Cash. Never anything productive to say...only personal attacks. Meanwhile, I get private emails from people supporting me but too chicken shit to post here for fear of being attacked also. You're a vile group of trash and have me questioning why on Earth I'm even on this site.


    perhaps you should have made a qualifying statement to the effect that... "while i may not believe this...."

    why do you expect to make such posts and not be attacked is beyond me. i think you must be a troll.
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    Sep 07, 2012 1:33 PM GMT
    Hmmm. The comments that are negative towards this article clearly demonstrates, to me, why those of us who choose the stay discreet stay discreet. It is a matter of choice. We all have a choice to live life as we desire and not be put into a category of straight, gay, bi, or whatever. The article, to me, simply states why those of us who CHOOSE to live our lives as we live them get demeaned by a people group who screams equality and tolerance and yet are the first to throw stones. That makes it SO much easier to "come out."

    The negative comments posted here are some of the very reasons I choose to be discreet and "under the radar" with my choice of life. Not everyone shares the same story, walk, experience, taste, or desire to be "out" as deemed by some unwritten creed. The true spirit of the article to me simply, states the fact that this does indeed exist as yet another fraction of the muti-faceted gay life. Why the hostility toward the author or the poster?

    I'm proud to have had 28 years of marriage, raised 3 awesome kids, have a healthy relationship with my ex and kids, have a great social support group both gay and straight, and have a great guy that I love and am grateful for our like-mindedness when it comes to this subject. No matter how you slice it, people are attracted to what they like and they make up their own brand.

    I am so glad we live in a country that allows us those freedoms! We can be who we want to be albeit some comes with sacrifice. The gay life is difficult enough outside of the "life" let alone trying to attain gayness from those who feel they did it right. I agree to disagree with those opposed to the ariticle and uphold the truth that yet all men are created equal, some just function differently than the statis quo, and that's ok.
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    Sep 07, 2012 1:41 PM GMT
    Overgrip46 saidHmmm. The comments that are negative towards this article clearly demonstrates, to me, why those of us who choose the stay discreet stay discreet. It is a matter of choice. We all have a choice to live life as we desire and not be put into a category of straight, gay, bi, or whatever. The article, to me, simply states why those of us who CHOOSE to live our lives as we live them get demeaned by a people group who screams equality and tolerance and yet are the first to throw stones. That makes it SO much easier to "come out."

    The negative comments posted here are some of the very reasons I choose to be discreet and "under the radar" with my choice of life. Not everyone shares the same story, walk, experience, taste, or desire to be "out" as deemed by some unwritten creed. The true spirit of the article to me simply, states the fact that this does indeed exist as yet another fraction of the muti-faceted gay life. Why the hostility toward the author or the poster?

    I'm proud to have had 28 years of marriage, raised 3 awesome kids, have a healthy relationship with my ex and kids, have a great social support group both gay and straight, and have a great guy that I love and am grateful for our like-mindedness when it comes to this subject. No matter how you slice it, people are attracted to what they like and they make up their own brand.

    I am so glad we live in a country that allows us those freedoms! We can be who we want to be albeit some comes with sacrifice. The gay life is difficult enough outside of the "life" let alone trying to attain gayness from those who feel they did it right. I agree to disagree with those opposed to the ariticle and uphold the truth that yet all men are created equal, some just function differently than the statis quo, and that's ok.



    Oh STUF and stop giving yourself so much credit. Our arguments are not about the article per se, but the OP himself. He is a grade A douce who uses every opportunity he has to degrade and belittle those around him under the guise that he is some sort of macho-holier-than-thou kinda guy. When in reality, he is just as low and immoral as the rest of us.

    Really, no one gives a fuck that you are 'discreet'. Unless I'm fucking you it is no concern of mine, especially on this here website...
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    Sep 07, 2012 1:46 PM GMT
    ^^not to mention the fact that real men love themselves for who they are and don't hide from the public. Call yourself what you want, but I have another word for those kinds of people. Cowards. Really, that's all they ever will be. Fact of the matter is you are discreet because you are ashamed when in actuality if you.were comfortable being a man you wouldn't care who knows you are gay.

    Face
  • rnch

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    Sep 07, 2012 1:55 PM GMT
    MuchMoreThanMuscle saidOooh, I didn't like so much about that article. What a waste of internet space.

    And did you see the "DONATE" button at the bottom of the article.

    Of all the nerve!

    I lunged for the "X" as as quickly as I possibly could.





    agree icon_exclaim.gif
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    Sep 07, 2012 1:57 PM GMT
    I would like all my haters to note that I have avoided this topic purposely so that I wouldn't end up shitting on you all.
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    Sep 07, 2012 2:49 PM GMT
    LISTEN! I just bought purple shoes. Now what?!
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    Sep 07, 2012 3:03 PM GMT
    There is no power or help or advice in that article. We already know that coming out is scary. And for many of us, we come out over and over again as new people get close to us and the risk is real. But we can't go on about how masculine we are and then run from the courage that being masculine demands. I know this from my experience and my late coming out.

    "Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear. The brave may not live forever, but the cautious do not live at all." -Meg Cabot.

    "Your time is limited, so don't waste it living someone else's life. Don't be trapped by dogma - which is living with the results of other people's thinking. Don't let the noise of other's opinions drown out your own inner voice. And most important, have the courage to follow your heart and intuition. They somehow already know what you truly want to become. Everything else is secondary." -Steve Jobs.
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    Sep 07, 2012 6:59 PM GMT
    McQueen saidI would like all my haters to note that I have avoided this topic purposely so that I wouldn't end up shitting on you all.


    I didn't know you were into that.icon_eek.gif


    icon_razz.gif
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    Sep 07, 2012 7:05 PM GMT
    It is kind of a silly article. As others have noted, it is very outdated. It starts off by asserting a "stereotype" of gay men that went out with Boys in the Band, and goes downhill from there.

    Seriously, the idea that "straight acting" guys are ever so much more tortured by coming out sounds very doubtful to me. It is, however, consistent with the worldview that Scruffy has expressed here before. If it resonates with him, cool. But for me, not so much.
  • HottJoe

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    Sep 07, 2012 7:17 PM GMT
    huhwhat saidBelieve it or not, some guys actually go through what this article talks about. There's a 'straight trap' that some masculine gay guys fall into. They meet new guy friends and they don't know quite yet if they are ready to 'come out' to them. Then they hear these new straight friends make a few comments about gay people, and the fear suddenly surfaces of how to tell them... time passes and you realize that shit, everyone thinks I'm straight now and it would be super awkward to come out. Shit. You tell yourself that you'll do it 'when the time is right', but you end up being their wingman at the bars and playing paintball on the weekends. Shit. You're in a 'straight trap'.

    The last guy I dated was a little feminine and very out/proud. My masculinity really bothered him. I wish I was like him, though. I wish I was feminine so I wouldn't ever fall into the trap and I wouldn't always have to have 'the talk' and worry about people running away from me. I grew up in a small town, so I know people I care about will run. Okay, rant over. I just woke up, so that's my excuse.


    Wow, that sounds so much like what my boyfriend has to go through whenever he starts a new job. Last Christmas he came out at work by taking me to his company's holiday party.

    That sucks that your ex didn't appreciate you. Most of my gay friends think I have the greatest boyfriend. icon_smile.gif
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    Sep 07, 2012 7:50 PM GMT
    http://www.altdaily.com/author/jovalmartin

    I looked at the bio of the blog's writer Joval Martin. He lives in the Hampton Roads area of Virginia which is a very, very unusual area. There are pockets of extreme conservativism (Pat Robertson's empire is based there as well as Regent University, the ultra conservative religious college and law school founded by Robertson)

    Hampton Roads includes Norfolk, which is fairly progressive, Virginia Beach, which is a spawling city without a real city center, although a nice ocean front, Chesapeake, a very conservative Republican area, several other areas, including Portsmouth. There is an enormous military presence there. Portsmouth is interesting because in the 20's-30's it was the "Harlem" of the South. Wealthy and middle class black families built large portions of Portsmouth and there was a thriving Black Cultural/Music community there.

    It has horrible gay bars, even today. I met some nice guys there, but it is an area that is as big and populous as a large metropolitan city, but is really a loose connection of smaller cities all in one place.

    I disagree with almost everything he said, but as he gets older and realizes that the LGBT community in different locations acts in locally unique ways, he may be judging us all by him limited experience.
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    Sep 07, 2012 7:52 PM GMT
    Oh, and let me say... I am not criticizing the Hampton Roads region. Not at all. But it is a unique place and because it is so disjointed, if there is a larger gay community, they seem to be disconnected from each other. His blog points to his frustration at not having a communtiy
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    Sep 07, 2012 10:13 PM GMT
    Yeah, if the fem's would just butch it up all the masc guys could come out, Keep holding you're breath..
    Easier? used to think the same, but then I remembered I barely survived being called Pizza Face.
    fucking blame game bull shit, where as, as always, the blame should be on the guy's "covering".
    The best excuse of all to keep there sexuality their own business: "I'm not like that and don't want people to think I am", instead of admitting they're scared, lying to everyone for so long they're now the biggest Hippocrates of all.
    Suck's even more when you find out there are hundreds of guys around you doing the same.
    Thank god for Myth Busters.
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    Sep 07, 2012 10:21 PM GMT
    MuscleBadger saidOh, and let me say... I am not criticizing the Hampton Roads region. Not at all. But it is a unique place and because it is so disjointed, if there is a larger gay community, they seem to be disconnected from each other. His blog points to his frustration at not having a communtiy


    NOVA has to spare itself from making fun of the rest of 'redneck' Virginia icon_lol.gif
  • tuffguyndc

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    Sep 07, 2012 10:35 PM GMT
    Scruffypup saidWow. What a nasty bunch of queens. I post an article for discussion and you attack ME personally? I didn't write the fucking article. You're all too immature to simply discuss a topic without attacking the OP. You're just like a bunch of hyenas, especially you Cash. Never anything productive to say...only personal attacks. Meanwhile, I get private emails from people supporting me but too chicken shit to post here for fear of being attacked also. You're a vile group of trash and have me questioning why on Earth I'm even on this site.
    scruffy, come on dude i think you had to know that most of these guys were going to attack you on this topic. i mean come on some ridiculous dude posted something about the authors tank top and said he had a tight jaw line so he knew he was gay. really? seriously? scruff, again, i appreciate you putting up this article. i think it made some very valid points. thanks again even if no one else appreciates it. i do bro
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    Sep 07, 2012 10:45 PM GMT
    The writing is pretty terrible, but it appears it's meant to be a blog entry, not an article.

    The topics presented, though, are pretty interesting--if completely mismanaged. I cannot compare my experience to that of an effeminate guy and claim that it was more difficult for me, but I can confirm that it's definitely difficult to have to keep coming out to everyone; it seems like it would be easier to be obviously gay and not have to tell people.

    And several of those situations have been decidedly uncomfortable. Some guys get a bit weird after finding out that one of their "bros" is actually into other bros. I've literally had guys tell me I couldn't be gay because I didn't "act like those guys".

    And things are just as tricky with females. Take a girl who has a crush on you, add in some effed up religious bs, and then tell her you're actually gay... too many of those situations have turned friendship into- I don't even know what to call it; it's like they resent you for being gay because now they know they have no chance. And I can't even count how many girls got annoyed that I had zero interest in going shopping with them, watching RomComs with them and basically wouldn't be that gay friend they always dreamed of and instead would much rather be hiking or camping or horseback riding with their bf. icon_razz.gif

    So while the "article" doesn't really do the topic justice it does help dispel the myth of masculine gays having it easier.
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    Sep 08, 2012 12:53 AM GMT
    i know im not the only person who laughed seeing the "donate" at the bottom.
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    Sep 08, 2012 5:46 AM GMT
    Scruffypup saidWow. What a nasty bunch of queens. I post an article for discussion and you attack ME personally? I didn't write the fucking article. You're all too immature to simply discuss a topic without attacking the OP. You're just like a bunch of hyenas, especially you Cash. Never anything productive to say...only personal attacks. Meanwhile, I get private emails from people supporting me but too chicken shit to post here for fear of being attacked also. You're a vile group of trash and have me questioning why on Earth I'm even on this site.


    This is partly true. It is not necessary, no matter the history of the OP on this site, to make those personal attacks. I think, in that case, the OP has a legitimate response in the form of anger at those who waste everyone else's time by posting personal attacks instead of responding with arguments against the article.

    The problem with the above comment by the OP is the word "all" when it is obvious from some of the comments above that some men identify, at least partly, with the article in their own experience.