Romney: Hospital Visitation For Gay Couples Are ‘Benefits’ Not Rights

  • HndsmKansan

    Posts: 16509

    Oct 22, 2012 3:42 PM GMT
    CuriousJockAZ said
    TrentZ said

    Go back to 1930's Germany and ask yourself if a self-respecting person of Jewish ancestry would remain friends with a "nice Christian" who told him he supports Hitler, even though it's "against your civil rights." You know the answer.



    Using this as a basis for your argument is utterly absurd. Comparing Hitler ( responsible for the death of millions of Jews) to people who vote Republican completely obliterates any chance for you to be taken seriously.



    I would agree with Todd.... the use of Hitler's name is inappropriate in this argument. No reason to try and support one position or the other with this kind of argument.. it is laced with emotion, with the horror of death. Hitler falls into a totally different category, no point to ever make it a part of reasonable dialogue. Lets keep this civil.
  • CuriousJockAZ

    Posts: 24066

    Oct 22, 2012 3:51 PM GMT
    HndsmKansan saidLets keep this civil.



    Thanks Chris...Probably a good idea to remind everybody of this because emotions will surely be running high these last 2 weeks leading up to the election (Yea! This election is FINALLY going to be over!!!) and everybody needs to try a little harder to not make this personal (me included)
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    Oct 22, 2012 3:52 PM GMT
    CuriousJockAZ said
    meninlove said

    CAZ, go back and re-read theantijock's post, in particular where he said, "He used those words..."

    OK?



    In that case, as I said, it was a strange (and not at all funny) choice of words for the friend to use.


    Uh, no you didn't. You said (see bold) " Even if he were kidding, that probably wasn't the best choice of words to say to a friend who is gay. Regardless, you've been friends since 4th Grade. Surely, he didn't mean it quite as mean-spirited as it may have been taken. I assume you allow your friends to have their own opinion and vote however they choose and not make their vote all about YOU.
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    Oct 22, 2012 3:58 PM GMT
    CuriousJockAZ said
    TrentZ said

    Go back to 1930's Germany and ask yourself if a self-respecting person of Jewish ancestry would remain friends with a "nice Christian" who told him he supports Hitler, even though it's "against your civil rights." You know the answer.



    Using this as a basis for your argument is utterly absurd. Comparing Hitler ( responsible for the death of millions of Jews) to people who vote Republican completely obliterates any chance for you to be taken seriously.


    No it doesn't. Anti-semitism against Jews and other minority groups back then ALLOWED Hitler to take away all the civil rights that those men and women enjoyed. The majority "cooperated" with the Nazi government through all of its dealings, including gathering and transporting all unwelcome minority groups to concentration camps.

    There's a difference between segregation and creation of 2nd class citizens versus systematic execution of all undesired minority groups. Mitt Romney represents the former, where he wants to strip a specific minority group of obtaining equal rights and legal protection/representation in the society.
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    Oct 22, 2012 4:14 PM GMT
    TrentZ said


    Go back to 1930's Germany and ask yourself if a self-respecting person of Jewish ancestry would remain friends with a "nice Christian" who told him he supports Hitler, even though it's "against your civil rights." You know the answer.

    If you met him for the first time today...would you really want such an emotionally abusive person in your life? That "uncomfortable" feeling you have, is a little part of your self-esteem getting killed off by being his friend.




    In a previous thread another poster made a bizarre reference to the holocaust

    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/2608281/?forumpage=2

    JockTheVote said
    CuriousJockAZ saidYou know, I think I do hear it...and it's picking up steam --- chooo-choooo icon_lol.gif


    for a visual reference:

    Holocaust train - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_trainPolish Jews being loaded onto trains at Umschlagplatz in Warsaw Ghetto. ... The Holocaust trains were railway transports run by German Nazis and their ...... Vashem website; Photo slide show of the Holocaust, showing deportation trains ·


    I've always suspected JTV as being a sock and now we have TrentZ

    JTV=TrentZ=Catfish?
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    Oct 22, 2012 4:17 PM GMT
    CuriousJockAZ said
    HndsmKansan saidLets keep this civil.

    Thanks Chris...Probably a good idea to remind everybody of this because emotions will surely be running high these last 2 weeks leading up to the election (Yea! This election is FINALLY going to be over!!!) and everybody needs to try a little harder to not make this personal (me included)

    You need to try a LOT harder. As usual, you preach civility to everyone else, your halo positively glowing with righteousness, while you are the worst offender yourself. From above:

    "In a single sentence you make it quite clear as to how truly clueless you are. Apparently, you're a graduate of the Art_Deco school of Delusion. Congratulations! Like him, you've become irrelevant."

    You even bolded my SN to make sure your vile words weren't overlooked. A classic example of Right Wing hypocrisy. NEXT!
  • CuriousJockAZ

    Posts: 24066

    Oct 22, 2012 4:20 PM GMT
    TrentZ saidThe Republican party and Conservatism are intellectual heirs to the Nazi party. Reality is that the Republican party contains a wing that advocates for the death of gay people. Many of these same groups support the gay genocide in Uganda. They will also have Mitt Romney's ear in the WH.


    You are certainly willing and able to assess the GOP and/or Mitt Romney any way you like. I don't agree with your assessment.
  • CuriousJockAZ

    Posts: 24066

    Oct 22, 2012 4:35 PM GMT
    musicbox89 saidMitt Romney represents the former, where he wants to strip a specific minority group of obtaining equal rights and legal protection/representation in the society.


    My suggestion is that you take Mitt Romney for what he says --- his actual words --- and don't fall prey to the ample amount of propaganda (some evidenced here by the OP) that go well beyond his actual intention. Yes, it's true, and it's no secret, and something that Mitt has not really ever wavered on, he is against Gay Marriage -- more specifically he is an advocate for the preservation of the traditional definition of marriage which is to say that it is "between a man and a woman". This is a far cry from the broader generalization you and so many other incorrectly make that Mitt Romney wants to "strip a specific minority group of obtaining equal rights and legal protection/representation in the society". It should be noted that, regardless of how Mitt Romney, or Barrack Obama, or any other person who is our POTUS feels, "gay issues" are not going to be up to them. Secondly, being pro-preservation of the traditional definition of marriage does not make someone a hater of gays, or against the legal protection of gays. Granted, you and others are certainly free to interpret and extrapolate from what Mitt Romney actually says and make it mean whatever you choose. I just don't happen to agree.
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    Oct 22, 2012 4:37 PM GMT
    CuriousJockAZ saidHe actually used those exact words..."I'll be voting against your civil rights"? Even if he were kidding, that probably wasn't the best choice of words to say to a friend who is gay. Regardless, you've been friends since 4th Grade. Surely, he didn't mean it quite as mean-spirited as it may have been taken. I assume you allow your friends to have their own opinion and vote however they choose and not make their vote all about YOU.


    Yes, he used those words, though in a conversation he brought up which gave me the opportunity to explain to him the ramifications of his decisions. I don't believe he's out to oppress me expressly but I'm equally certain that he doesn't consider my welfare in his voting, because this scumbag world is so used to treating gay people as 2nd class citizens that it's just 2nd nature to him. I don't fault him that--consciousness ever evolves--though I do correct it as required. So of course he was just being a smart-ass but it still makes me uncomfortable accepting hospitality under these circumstances. Perhaps if it wasn't an election year: how sad & polarized a statement is that?

    Because I do not want to wind up in a political discussion at 2 in the am with me having to then find a hotel room so I can rest comfortably. Part of hospitality is making your guests feel at home, safe.

    I don't take it as mean spirited. I do take it as stupid and I will never choose to understand how especially a gay person could vote against their own human rights but also how any of my friends wouldn't support my civil right unconditionally. I find it to be hurtful. I wouldn't do such a thing to them. I would fight for them. They're my friends. So yes, I expect that they would fight for me and I am disappointed in them when they do not.

    I manage to put a lot of that shit aside for the childhood friends who I've grandfathered in. And even through my 30s I made friends with republicans. My last best bud was one, a Hollywood guy closeted to the public still to this day in death. Though, none of them were ever quite as republican by the time I was done with them.

    But I'm older now. Living 55 years as a second class citizen without my human rights endowed is wearing on me. I have less tolerance for this shit now than I did 20 years ago, or 40 years ago when very few knew I was gay.

    I would not befriend someone new into my life who thinks like that now. I'll chat friendly in a civil way with someone who thinks like you online or in person but frankly--and I don't mean to be mean--I wouldn't want you in my life as long as you practice preaching what I find to be abominable. If my friends think that I ought to be treated as less than human, then have some honor, some integrity, and drop me as a friend. Don't string me along for old time's sake.

    So yes, I would like for them to make their vote about me. Just as I would like for you to make your vote about you, about the you who lives without your own human rights endowed. As much as I abhor the idea that anyone gets to vote for my rights, my honor in them would be fully restored were they to do what they know is right for themelves to do: support dignity for me in my lifetime. They know I should have that. If I didn't believe they know that's the right thing to do, I wouldn't be their friend. But people don't always do the right thing. I know that too.
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    Oct 22, 2012 4:50 PM GMT
    Rights don't come from the government benefits do...Rights come from the universe or the creator...therefore this doesn't mean much. The conservatives/libertarians, such as myself, believe that the government cannot give or grant rights. Therefore this statement doesnt show that Romney is somehow awful.
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    Oct 22, 2012 4:55 PM GMT

    "Rights come from the universe or the creator."

    lol, wut?


    I'd love to hear what those rights are.

    Did god give women and blacks the right to vote in your country? Fascinating.
  • AllAmericanJo...

    Posts: 4271

    Oct 22, 2012 4:58 PM GMT
    CuriousJockAZ said
    TroyAthlete said
    CJAZ, a paid Romney operative, is merely here spreading his bullshit right-wing propaganda.


    In a single sentence you make it quite clear as to how truly clueless you are. Apparently, you're a graduate of the Art_Deco school of Delusion. Congratulations! Like him, you've become irrelevant.

    NEXT! icon_rolleyes.gif


    So irrelevant that you feel the need to respond to everything I say?

    You're not very smart, clearly not a graduate of any school worth it's salt. You're a joke, and your defenses of the anti-gay right have made you a laughingstock. Deservedly so.
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    Oct 22, 2012 5:00 PM GMT
    I really didn't read all of that in detail. Was he just saying that hospital visitation rights are not a constitutional right? But in that case any hospital visitation rights, whether straight or gay would also just be "benefits"? ....What's the hullabaloo about?
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    Oct 22, 2012 5:00 PM GMT
    meninlove said
    "Rights come from the universe or the creator."

    lol, wut?


    I'd love to hear what those rights are.

    Did god give women and blacks the right to vote in your country? Fascinating.


    Im not sure what's hard to get about this concept...The government can't grant rights, but they can restrict them as they did for women and African Americans. The right for these groups to vote wasn't created by the government it was recognized as the natural right that it was. Thus an Amendment was created to formally recognize that these rights were natural and existed and must be adopted by the state.
  • AllAmericanJo...

    Posts: 4271

    Oct 22, 2012 5:02 PM GMT
    musclmed said
    Put up or shut up.


    Are you giving orders to me? Who the hell are you? Bahahahahaha.

    I'll do what I want. Thanks though!
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    Oct 22, 2012 5:04 PM GMT
    Trajen1 said
    meninlove said
    "Rights come from the universe or the creator."

    lol, wut?


    I'd love to hear what those rights are.

    Did god give women and blacks the right to vote in your country? Fascinating.


    Im not sure what's hard to get about this concept...The government can't grant rights, but they can restrict them as they did for women and African Americans. The right for these groups to vote wasn't created by the government it was recognized as the natural right that it was. Thus an Amendment was created to formally recognize that these rights were natural and existed and must be adopted by the state.


    o.O ok....

    So the rights of gays are not natural and don't exist, eh?

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    Oct 22, 2012 5:06 PM GMT
    TrentZ said
    theantijock saidA friend of mine who is republican, while ribbing me about politics--about which most of my republican friends know not to discuss with me--said that he'll be voting against my civil rights. He used those words in the same discussion where he invited me to stay with him for a few days on my upcoming visit there.

    We've been friends since 4th grade and now I don't know if I'd be comfortable in his home. This sucks.


    Go back to 1930's Germany and ask yourself if a self-respecting person of Jewish ancestry would remain friends with a "nice Christian" who told him he supports Hitler, even though it's "against your civil rights." You know the answer.

    If you met him for the first time today...would you really want such an emotionally abusive person in your life? That "uncomfortable" feeling you have, is a little part of your self-esteem getting killed off by being his friend.



    I think that in Hitler's Germany many Christians probably feared for their life more than they might have had the courage to help a Jewish friend. So even if I might have laid down my own life for a friend, can I fault who can not. If I fault them that they can not, then who am I laying down my life for? What then is the value of my risking my life if not to protect the more endangered or the weaker?

    Now there would be a difference of course if someone tried to make my life worse than it had to be. If you don't have the strength to help, don't use what strength you have to hurt. So of course I would have issues with that and in fact I recenly, sadly and reluctantly let go of decades old friendships which became abusive in that way during a period of deep mourning in my life.

    It's one thing if your friend falls into the drink and you don't have the strength to lift them out, but don't take the boat hook and push them under and certainly you don't take off with the boat leaving them in the middle of the ocean. You stick around until stronger help arrives so your friend doesn't drown.

    So thank you for your concern but my being uncomfortable in that situation hasn't as much to do with me as it has to do with him. I'm uncomfortable when my friends' hearts are closed off. I'm uncomfortable when my friends' minds aren't open. I'm uncomfortable when my friend's consciousness shrinks instead of expands. Not for me, for them. My heart and mind are open. I work all the time to expand consciousness. My concern is for them. I've already seen to me. Regardless of the exterior world, within myself, I'm feeling quite comfy, thank you. So I'm pretty sure my self-esteem is entirely intact. I don't derive my strength from the outside and I've always been a very strong swimmer, even when I'm drowning in sorrow inside.

    "Outward circumstances are no substitute for inner experience."~~CG Jung
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    Oct 22, 2012 5:07 PM GMT

    "The government can't grant rights, but they can restrict them as they did for women and African Americans."

    Interesting semantical argument, but the end result is the same. So using your arguments, Mitty wants to restrict gay people's natural rights. And you're all good with that?
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    Oct 22, 2012 5:10 PM GMT
    Yet again, in spite of Romney's hostility (or, at best, indifference) to equal rights for gay people, the usual suspects are falling over themselves to defend him.

    Just remember, you cannot be a little bit equal. Equality means equal rights in all respects. A gay person with any dignity or self-respect ought not to settle for anything less. Meanwhile, there is a rump of soulless gay Republican apologists, who seem content to be regarded as second class citizens.
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    Oct 22, 2012 5:10 PM GMT
    meninlove said
    Trajen1 said
    meninlove said
    "Rights come from the universe or the creator."

    lol, wut?


    I'd love to hear what those rights are.

    Did god give women and blacks the right to vote in your country? Fascinating.


    Im not sure what's hard to get about this concept...The government can't grant rights, but they can restrict them as they did for women and African Americans. The right for these groups to vote wasn't created by the government it was recognized as the natural right that it was. Thus an Amendment was created to formally recognize that these rights were natural and existed and must be adopted by the state.


    o.O ok....

    So the rights of gays are not natural and don't exist, eh?



    Are these supposed to be zingers? assumptions? snarky comments? toward me, because I don't find them to be doing your argument any good, or refuting my ideology. However I believe that love and sexual love between two consenting humans is a natural right....therefore it would be held that gay guys, such as us, are partaking in this natural right.
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    Oct 22, 2012 5:11 PM GMT
    Trajen1 saidRights don't come from the government benefits do...Rights come from the universe or the creator...therefore this doesn't mean much. The conservatives/libertarians, such as myself, believe that the government cannot give or grant rights. Therefore this statement doesnt show that Romney is somehow awful.


    Unless you happen to be a politician, what you believe doesn't matter.

    On planet Earth, governments, not gods, can and do give/grant rights to the people. But don't lose heart; your god does play a role. He's used by the government as an aid to perpetuate fear, oppression and ignorance.
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    Oct 22, 2012 5:11 PM GMT
    meninlove said
    "The government can't grant rights, but they can restrict them as they did for women and African Americans."

    Interesting semantical argument, but the end result is the same. So using your arguments, Mitty wants to restrict gay people's natural rights. And you're all good with that?


    No rights of naturality should be restricted
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    Oct 22, 2012 5:13 PM GMT
    credo said
    Trajen1 saidRights don't come from the government benefits do...Rights come from the universe or the creator...therefore this doesn't mean much. The conservatives/libertarians, such as myself, believe that the government cannot give or grant rights. Therefore this statement doesnt show that Romney is somehow awful.


    Unless you happen to be a politician, what you believe doesn't matter.

    On planet Earth, governments, not gods, can and do give/grant rights to the people. But don't lose heart; your god does play a role. He's used by the government as an aid to perpetuate fear, oppression and ignorance.


    Im sorry you feel that way, but this is what our country was founded upon. Move to Europe and you will be in heaven...welll that is until they collapse, better hurry up and partake in that liberalism before it comes to a violent end.
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    Oct 22, 2012 5:14 PM GMT
    ^
    Ignorance is bliss (for the ignorant).
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    Oct 22, 2012 5:18 PM GMT
    I sent this email to my dad this week... thought you'd all like to see, for inspiration!

    You defended Romney's upholding of current marriage laws by saying that marriage laws are a state matter and that Obama shouldn't get federal law involved in marriage. We've got to think bigger than that. SLAVERY was a state matter until an amendment sanctioned it to be unjust saying that it denied civil rights. It took a federal law to change the mind of the country as a whole. The excuse of leaving a civil matter like this down to state laws is regressive and will never take the country as a whole forward in civil equality. At the moment, it's a total mess.

    Is it fair that your straight daughter has different rights than your gay son? Imagine that Maggie (my sister) got this new job of hers in Georgia and she had a female partner that she had married (in a state where they could) ... when they move to Georgia suddenly they'd have no civil partnership rights. Is that fair? She'd have no rights to decide what to do in the hospital, no rights to say what happens if her partner died, no automatic rights to inherit assets to help look after their baby? (And let's not even start on adoption laws). These are all automatic inalienable rights for straight people. This simply can not be left down to state opinion if the country is going to progress socially.

    What you think is 'right' is one matter and of course you're free to your opinion, but in the end that opinion should not impose itself on others. Civil rights are another matter - cut and dried. Gay people just want equal rights and to get on privately and live their lives. It's repression by people like Romney and Co. that makes gay people have to fight for an equal place in society.