What's your stance on immigration?

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    Nov 20, 2012 5:18 AM GMT
    nicodegallo saidOddly enough, I find most immigrants to be more "American" than people born and raised in America. Or rather they largely appreciate what this country has offered them because they've had to go through a great ordeal to make it here. I think most Americans take for granted what they have until they lose it all or live in another country themselves.

    You can say that about most immigrant populations across the world, though.
    This is why I feel more at home in/around Miami.

    The immigrants here have taught me more about this country than any history teacher ever could. icon_wink.gif
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    Nov 20, 2012 5:48 AM GMT
    nicodegallo said I think most Americans take for granted what they have until they lose it all or live in another country themselves.

    You can say that about most immigrant populations across the world, though.


    I totally agree with you. I haven't had the opportunity to get a driver's license or state ID. I think that if I lived in my home country, I would take all of these things for granted.

    Some of my American friends have told me they wish they could have the same glance I have as an immigrant.
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    Nov 20, 2012 5:53 AM GMT
    Can we please keep this thread clean?? No nudity pictures of any of that kind please,

    Thanks
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    Nov 20, 2012 6:57 AM GMT
    I must admit that sometimes I wonder how my life would be had my family stayed in Spain. With things quite dreary for young Spaniards lately, I'm rather glad that things worked out for me and my family here in the US.
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    Nov 20, 2012 3:45 PM GMT
    Walter92 said@Mocktwinkles, what do you propose to do with the nearly 12 million already here? Let's face it, it's impossible to deport them all, or to promote "Self-Deportation" lol.

    musclemed said1)we need to give amnesty for indivduals brought here under the age of 18 who attended school in the US.


    musclemed, I don't think this is the approach we wanna take. We wanna be able to prove to society that we'll help make this a better nation by putting our degrees to work. We want to EARN a path to citizenship.

    Suetoniues said

    There should be no "immigration reform," whether the Dream Act or any other, unless it includes the right of gay people to bring their partners into the country, just as straight married folks have the right to bring their spouse into the country.


    I do agree with you that a reform should include letting gay people bring their partners into the country. This is, I believe, a strong reason for the gay community and the immigrant community to keep working together for common ground comprehensive immigration reform. Eventually, we want reform. It would not make any sense to advocate for immigration reform piece by piece, don't you think?





    Simple. You just never let them be rewarded with citizenship. Permanently second class -- but no deportation. If there's going to be an open violation of the law then why have any rules about immigration and citizenship to begin with? Why not continue to do it? If you make the exception once, you have to keep making it again and again.
  • CuriousJockAZ

    Posts: 24068

    Nov 20, 2012 4:06 PM GMT
    The immigration laws, like ALL laws, need to be followed. It's kind of that simple for me. I do not want to see anyone deported (unless they have come here and committed a crime), but where do we draw the line if not at THE LAW? We definitely have to find a better pathway to citizenship, but I think that pathway for those who are here illegally should probably include some sort of military service. I'm also in favor of changing the 14th amendment because I don't think it was intended for what it has actually become --- an invitation for someone to come here and have a baby so it's a U.S. citizen eligible for all the benefits as such. If at least one of the parents are not a U.S. citizen, then the newborn should be deemed a citizen where the parents are citizens.
  • Suetonius

    Posts: 2573

    Nov 20, 2012 11:42 PM GMT
    Walter92 saidSuetonius, could you please explain to me what you mentioned in your previous post in simple English?

    I tried to follow it, but I wasn't able to understand a bit. DiFi and Dino??
    I'm not familiar with them.

    DiFi = Diane Feinstein - California's conservative democratic senator
    DINO = Democrat in name only
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    Nov 20, 2012 11:56 PM GMT
    msuNtx saidThey won't steal jobs from me so I have no problem with them. They do the work that most Americans refuse to do. Just look at what happened to Alabama after they pretty much pulled over any Hispanic and asked for proof of citizenship. Their farming economy went to crap.

    You are correct. Except one caveat: They do the work that most Americans refuse to do...at the price employers want to pay.
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    Nov 21, 2012 12:01 AM GMT
    I think the problem is this:

    It's not the illegal immigrants that are the problem. It's WHY they're even illegal to begin with. Our immigration system has too much red tape! We're supposed to be the Land of Opportunity, but if you want to come to such a land, you have to jump through this bureaucratic obstacle course to even have a POSSIBILITY of becoming a citizen!

    Make immigration easier, and you'll have fewer people coming here illegally.
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    Nov 21, 2012 12:03 AM GMT
    musclmed said
    sfbayguy said
    musclmed said1)we need to give amnesty for indivduals brought here under the age of 18 who attended school in the US. Those individuals however cannot be allowed to bring in or be a "Anchor baby" for relatives who are illegal. --- We cannot fault minors for being undocumented but cannot reward adults

    You say no "anchor babies," but what about the kids who are still under 18? Do we still deport their parents, and therefore the kids themselves (defeating such a Dream Act-type of amnesty)? Or would we want to throw them into the foster care system (if there aren't relatives who are legally here and are willing to and can afford to take care of them)? Is separating children from their parents such great thing? And what about the kids when they are 18? Do we expect them to fend for themselves? Yes, they are legally adults, but how many 18 year olds are able to fend for themselves 100% without some form of help from their parents, particularly if they are trying to attend higher education?

    This is the problem already faced by families in which the children are born in the US and are therefore US citizens, but the parents are here illegally. How do we not add to the problem with a Dream Act-type of amnesty like you mention above added to the mix?



    If you go with the premise that children under 18 came under no fault of their own, then essentially rubber stamp the illegal act by giving the same amnesty to the parents this will be a never ending problem.

    In my initial post the parents have their own paths to becoming legal by establishing that they have lived in the country for 4 years. Many "undocumented minors" live with extended nuclear families. 1 minor could anchor 1-2 dozen undocumented adults.

    my post above:
    "2)Undocumented adult individuals that can prove that they for more than 4 years have paid property or other taxes, had car insurance, attended school or had employment , or are domestic partners or married ( to establish they were actually HERE can be eligible for green cards)".

    This would also cover the "18 year old" that need their parents. If said 18 year old was in school, was employed and actually IN THE COUNTRY.

    The "anchor baby" needs to stop. Because what it does is endorse illegal activity. And for those that are transient / back and forth between countries cannot qualify for amnesty.

    What I propose is that most of the people who actually are here would be able to stay. The opportunist illegal that comes and goes and is not integrated into society well just needs to leave.

    I should have added we need to sunset the Anchor baby. If a family has a baby in the US and are not legal residents that baby is not automatically a citizen going forward.

    So it sounds like your Dream Act-type solution is also dependent on the undocumented parents getting their situation in order as well. But if these adults are allowed to remain, doesn't it make sense that their children would as well regardless of anything like the Dream Act?

    I don't see how one child can necessarily equal 1-2 dozen legally anchored adults. 2 parents max should be enough for a child.

    Finally, RE: Your last paragraph: That would require amending the US Constitution. That's NOT going to happen.
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    Nov 21, 2012 12:05 AM GMT
    Walter92 said
    Suetonius said

    Gay immigration rights are unlikely to pass in this decade in a bill all by itself, which is why it is important that these rights be included in any bill that is considered.


    Suetonius, why not advocate for them as well?? Legislators in Washington will only hear the voices that speak out.

    @sfbayguy, I'm not clear on your stance. I don't think i got your message.

    msuNtx

    They won't steal jobs from me so I have no problem with them.


    To steal jobs from other people has never been a priority for undocumented people. I, personally, want to contribute to my society in Austin when I graduate from college by putting my degree to work. I want to give back and contribute.

    @DOMINUS, nicely put man.








    Huh? I never said anything about anyone stealing jobs.
  • musclmed

    Posts: 3591

    Nov 21, 2012 3:52 AM GMT
    sfbayguy said
    musclmed said
    sfbayguy said
    musclmed said1)we need to give amnesty for indivduals brought here under the age of 18 who attended school in the US. Those individuals however cannot be allowed to bring in or be a "Anchor baby" for relatives who are illegal. --- We cannot fault minors for being undocumented but cannot reward adults

    You say no "anchor babies," but what about the kids who are still under 18? Do we still deport their parents, and therefore the kids themselves (defeating such a Dream Act-type of amnesty)? Or would we want to throw them into the foster care system (if there aren't relatives who are legally here and are willing to and can afford to take care of them)? Is separating children from their parents such great thing? And what about the kids when they are 18? Do we expect them to fend for themselves? Yes, they are legally adults, but how many 18 year olds are able to fend for themselves 100% without some form of help from their parents, particularly if they are trying to attend higher education?

    This is the problem already faced by families in which the children are born in the US and are therefore US citizens, but the parents are here illegally. How do we not add to the problem with a Dream Act-type of amnesty like you mention above added to the mix?



    If you go with the premise that children under 18 came under no fault of their own, then essentially rubber stamp the illegal act by giving the same amnesty to the parents this will be a never ending problem.

    In my initial post the parents have their own paths to becoming legal by establishing that they have lived in the country for 4 years. Many "undocumented minors" live with extended nuclear families. 1 minor could anchor 1-2 dozen undocumented adults.

    my post above:
    "2)Undocumented adult individuals that can prove that they for more than 4 years have paid property or other taxes, had car insurance, attended school or had employment , or are domestic partners or married ( to establish they were actually HERE can be eligible for green cards)".

    This would also cover the "18 year old" that need their parents. If said 18 year old was in school, was employed and actually IN THE COUNTRY.

    The "anchor baby" needs to stop. Because what it does is endorse illegal activity. And for those that are transient / back and forth between countries cannot qualify for amnesty.

    What I propose is that most of the people who actually are here would be able to stay. The opportunist illegal that comes and goes and is not integrated into society well just needs to leave.

    I should have added we need to sunset the Anchor baby. If a family has a baby in the US and are not legal residents that baby is not automatically a citizen going forward.

    So it sounds like your Dream Act-type solution is also dependent on the undocumented parents getting their situation in order as well. But if these adults are allowed to remain, doesn't it make sense that their children would as well regardless of anything like the Dream Act?

    I don't see how one child can necessarily equal 1-2 dozen legally anchored adults. 2 parents max should be enough for a child.

    Finally, RE: Your last paragraph: That would require amending the US Constitution. That's NOT going to happen.


    Well if a child was in school for more than 4 years, it stands to reason that the parent or guardian would also hold legitimate holdings in the US for 4 years. We can debate what counts but, paying taxes ( property) renting , paying utilities showing that you are a integral part of society would allow a path to residency.

    I disagree with granting the parents just because a child is granted amnesty. Presumably the child is with his /her parents. So one child does not automatically grant 8 adults of a family amnesty.

    So it really isnt a dream act. A minor is given its own exemption ( being in school) that adults cannot enjoy.
    If you are an adult and illegal and going to school " and that is all you do", IMHO that is stealing from American college students. It is completely different that coming for a job or to escape oppression. There are mechanism to get a student visa, if you start off thumbing your nose at US law , take advantage of our tax payer school system then get in line with the others that wish entry into the country.

    To boil it down anyone wishing to get amnesty has to prove that they actually lived and participated in the US.
    Just being related to someone who can get amnesty isnt enough. You need to prove you are integrated to society.

    Currently a child cannot sponsor someone for legal residency unless they are 21. I agree with that.

  • musclmed

    Posts: 3591

    Nov 21, 2012 3:58 AM GMT
    libertpaulian saidI think the problem is this:

    It's not the illegal immigrants that are the problem. It's WHY they're even illegal to begin with. Our immigration system has too much red tape! We're supposed to be the Land of Opportunity, but if you want to come to such a land, you have to jump through this bureaucratic obstacle course to even have a POSSIBILITY of becoming a citizen!

    Make immigration easier, and you'll have fewer people coming here illegally.


    It is true bureaucracy doesn't help. But its like a store with long lines justifies stealing .

    If we started charging 100 bucks for US entry, ANYONE CAN COME, but you have to carry a biometric ID card there would be riots in the streets.

    There are disadvantages to being illegal, like never having to pay a ER bill for example
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    Nov 21, 2012 5:42 AM GMT
    paulflexes said
    nicodegallo saidOddly enough, I find most immigrants to be more "American" than people born and raised in America. Or rather they largely appreciate what this country has offered them because they've had to go through a great ordeal to make it here. I think most Americans take for granted what they have until they lose it all or live in another country themselves.

    You can say that about most immigrant populations across the world, though.
    This is why I feel more at home in/around Miami.

    The immigrants here have taught me more about this country than any history teacher ever could. icon_wink.gif


    Plus I love having every opportunity to speak espaƱol or russky icon_wink.gif