banning the burqa

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    Dec 23, 2012 3:58 PM GMT
    Hmmm...I'm more interested in what Muslim women have to say about it rather than gay men. icon_wink.gif

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1195052/Why-I-British-Muslim-woman-want-burkha-banned-streets.html

    And this lady loves wearing it, but she's wrong as to why - it's not a quran requirement at all.
    http://articles.cnn.com/2010-02-04/world/france.burqa.ban_1_veil-burqa-muslim-woman?_s=PM:WORLD


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    Dec 23, 2012 4:03 PM GMT
    Women above the age of consent can wear whatever clothing they want as long as it doesn't interfere with administering a civil society. Girls, however, also need the right to not wear them if they choose not to.

    In Canada, "race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability" are the categorically stated qualifiers of equality rights, where sexual orientation (and soon to be added, transgender) are assumed under the term 'sex'.

    Note that only 'religion' is a chosen aspect of one's subjective self-hood. The other inherent aspects of a person are inalienable. For that reason alone I don't believe there is any justified claim to a freedom of religion, at least in Canada, where the same legal instrument of equality rights also specifies freedom of expression. If you think the belief that an all-knowing white man lives in the clouds, or that the planet is a living organism, or that aliens built the pyramids, or that human sacrifice will ward-off rain, then fine, that's a thought process and nothing more. It's already protected in the same way that believing that quantum physics and string theory are essential explanations of the mystery of life -- they're freedoms of expression.

    Where that freedom is limited is in the administration of a civil society - so that one can't kill another human as a sacrifice as a 'religious freedom' because that's called homicide under criminal law and criminal law trumps the Charter of Rights in that instance.

    As for other reasoning for and against the draping of women, let's be clear -- women are not responsible for men's sexual violence. If straight men can't manage their lust for women, then that's THEIR problem, not women's. So if women want to wear the drapery (it is a choice - they don't turn into stone by not wearing them) then they participate in their own oppression by straight men. If they wear them for comfort or pleasure or whatever that might be, then fine, fill yur boots. But when civil society requires you to show your face or limit billowy-fabric that gets caught in machinery -- there's no inalienable right to stand on to refuse the request.


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    Dec 23, 2012 5:33 PM GMT
    jayj014 saidIN the last couple of days Ive stumbled upon the talks given by ayaan hirsi ali about the intolerance of islam. Should the burqa be a matter of free choice or can the state step in if they feel that something like the burqa has a negative effect on society? which is more important individual choice or community/government concerns?


    Whether or not I agree with it, the notion of banning the Burqa makes no sense. If western nations (at least this one) proclaim to promote free speech and religious acts, why would they ban one of the most fundamental expressions of Islam? What's less important in this argument is whether or not we agree with what the Burqa signifies and how we cherry pick to whom and what our free speech laws apply to.
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    Dec 23, 2012 5:52 PM GMT
    Yogi567 said
    jayj014 saidIN the last couple of days Ive stumbled upon the talks given by ayaan hirsi ali about the intolerance of islam. Should the burqa be a matter of free choice or can the state step in if they feel that something like the burqa has a negative effect on society? which is more important individual choice or community/government concerns?


    Whether or not I agree with it, the notion of banning the Burqa makes no sense. If western nations (at least this one) proclaim to promote free speech and religious acts, why would they ban one of the most fundamental expressions of Islam? What's less important in this argument is whether or not we agree with what the Burqa signifies and how we cherry pick to whom and what our free speech laws apply to.

    Why doesn't it make no sense? There are too many fundamental aspect of Islam if implemented in western countries it will start curbing mine and yours rights. Like being gay is sin and its punishable by death in Koran.

    Qur'an (7:80-84)"...For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds.... And we rained down on them a shower (of brimstone)" - An account that is borrowed from the Biblical story of Sodom. Muslim scholars through the centuries have interpreted the "rain of stones" on the town as meaning that homosexuals should be stoned, since no other reason is given for the people's destruction. (The story is also repeated in suras 27 and 29).



    How about we implement that fundamental aspect and enjoy ourselves die?
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    Dec 23, 2012 6:55 PM GMT
    It should banned in public.NYC is turning into a mix of Russia,Iraq and China.I am so outta here soon as I have the $.icon_smile.gif Ry
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    Dec 23, 2012 7:03 PM GMT
    burqa_head_orig.png

    mue52q-620x350.jpg

    burkini230607mos-468x8101.jpg

    45FA51C4.jpg

    burqa_style_gowns_muslim_womens_apparel.

    0_486.jpg
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    Dec 23, 2012 7:05 PM GMT
    theantijock saidburqa_head_orig.png

    mue52q-620x350.jpg

    burkini230607mos-468x8101.jpg

    45FA51C4.jpg

    burqa_style_gowns_muslim_womens_apparel.

    0_486.jpg

    Poor Darth Vader.
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    Dec 23, 2012 7:24 PM GMT
    Oddly enough, I find the dresses that Amish and Mennonite women wear more oppressing than most burqas, haha. I don't know, maybe because I've seen some really glamorous and modern burqas, whereas Amish/Mennonite dress has never changed.
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    Dec 23, 2012 7:26 PM GMT
    They wear black dress in the Summer. I wouldn't know how they feel.
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    Dec 23, 2012 7:29 PM GMT
    calibro said
    Shagglot said
    calibro said
    Shagglot said
    calibro saidi like how a lot of people assume the burqa is an object of female oppression without asking the women themselves if they mind.

    Yeah like asking prisoners whether they like the prison or not?


    actually, many women who wear burqas do so happily. it's a question of your western ideals over their aesthetics. if you are raised to believe the burqa is as natural as wearing socks, it's not the extreme prison you think it is. you're totally disregarding that many women believe in the ideas of modesty behind the burqa

    Obviously if you raise a kid in Prison without showing him the outside world his life will be that of a frog in the well. Its same with those women who have been raised in a conservative religiously dominated male centric society. Bring them to western world and show how many privileges they can enjoy and then ask how many of them are still ready to follow all those orthodox values or not? I bet very small percentage and most of them will be due to the family pressure instead of their own accord.
    I am from a conservative society where women are supposed to always think about her husband's interest over her own. She is suppose to be an ideal woman staying inside home cooking for his husband, taking care of children. But soon all of this are changing in bigger cities where educated women work and none of them enjoy the older ways of putting her husband's interest over hers.


    so do orthodox jews oppress women too?


    Yes.



    That a person volunteers or becomes comfortable with an oppression doesn't make it not an oppression. It is simply an oppression which has been perverted. You can't rationalize away someone overdressed such that they overheat as being nonoppressive. And that's not even a value judgment; that's a physical fact. Well, you can rationalize anything, but it's still a perversion. Is anyone entitled to that. Well of course they are. Does that keep someone from being their true self? I think so but I recognize that's debatable.

    I live near a very large university which came into it's own when I was here last back in the days of the shaw (I recall chanting in my youth: "down with the shaw of iran; i ran the shaw down") and so there's a large Iranian population here. I see burqa wearing people all the time. Doesn't bother me in the slightest. I just see them as Halloween early.

    My main problem with burqas is as another poster stated the security issue and I hate having those thoughts but obviously there are some practical concerns. I don't know the best way to handle that.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Dec 23, 2012 8:00 PM GMT
    Freedom FROM religion is as important as Freedom OF religion.
    It is up to the individual what they want to wear.
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    Dec 23, 2012 8:06 PM GMT
    Shagglot saidIslam needs to remove many more things apart from Burqa like any other religion. Sadly Muslims believe their religion is the best in town.
    I feel for Muslim women and LGBTs. Those Muslim women have to wear the Burqa in damn 40ºC (104ºF) temperature in places like Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. They go to swimming pool and beaches in Burqa. I don't think any sensible person given option would choose to do that. If it had been about freedom I doubt except few many would have chosen options like this. Its more about religion dictating your life instead of giving you choices.


    I agree with that. Islam should be removed its agressiveness against all other kind of spiritual faith.
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    Dec 23, 2012 8:42 PM GMT
    You can't wear this in a bank:

    williamsport-bank-rob-12-3-e135463078118

    You can't wear this in court:

    kkk.gif


    Democracy is a balance between individual freedom and collective restriction.
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    Dec 23, 2012 9:19 PM GMT
    iracetris saidYou can't wear this in a bank:

    williamsport-bank-rob-12-3-e135463078118

    You can't wear this in court:

    kkk.gif


    Democracy is a balance between individual freedom and collective restriction.


    Driver's licenses, and getting stopped by police and asked to provide ID comes to mind.
    Passports.
    Schools.
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    Dec 23, 2012 9:35 PM GMT
    With a few situational exceptions mentioned earlier; to each his own. Who am I force my beliefs, opinions or clothing preferences on another? That's the America I know.

    Done.
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    Dec 23, 2012 9:42 PM GMT
    Only if they make anything that hides your identity illegal which might be worthwhile if I don't have to watch the guy in sunglasses fumble around the gym like a tool anymore.
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    Dec 23, 2012 9:45 PM GMT
    The burqa is something that uniquely keeps people from integrating, I believe. Unlike most cultural flair - like rosary beads, kilts, turbans, a fez, whatever - the burqa is a mask.

    In the West, we see people wearing masks as threatening. Who wears masks? Bandits. Muggers. People on Halloween. Someone trying to hide themselves... In the West, this is a threatening figure.

    I'm not saying it ought to be banned or anything, just that it's not unreasonable to see the burqa as a special case. Even moreso than a hijab.
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    Dec 23, 2012 9:54 PM GMT
    yourname2000 saidI'd like to see MORE women wearing burqas, not less. And not just Muslims.

    Don't know if you noticed, but there are some ugly mofo bitches out there. icon_eek.gificon_neutral.gif

    And gay men should get to decide: "Sorry, you have to put this on right now."

    icon_lol.gificon_lol.gif
    Do I need to buy one?
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    Dec 23, 2012 11:56 PM GMT
    jayj014 saidIN the last couple of days Ive stumbled upon the talks given by ayaan hirsi ali about the intolerance of islam. Should the burqa be a matter of free choice or can the state step in if they feel that something like the burqa has a negative effect on society? which is more important individual choice or community/government concerns?

    In the USA, the burqa could never be banned since the 1st Amendment protects freedom of speech (expression) and freedom of religion.
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    Dec 29, 2012 3:17 PM GMT
    Shagglot said
    ryan2013 saidI do think it is a personal choice but I respect woman who do wear burqa. For a woman to wear a burqa makes them closer to God. it is one of the requirements for a woman to cover her body so no man look at her in a lustful way. I also understand all the weird looks woman get when she wears the attire, which makes it more difficult for them to follow God's path. That is why you don't see many young women wearing burgas in western countries because it is not the norm and not many people like the feeling of being an outsider.

    Burqas are not there to oppress women. Men and women are born differently and that is a scientific fact. Islam provides a role for men and for women. We all have a role to play until we die.

    Here we go. Yeah Islam also says being gay is a sin. How is that going for you? How do you live with that?


    Yes Islam also says being gay is a sin. I have been in dilemma towards how I want to pursue my life. I haven't decided which part to sacrifice; live my homosexual desires and ask for forgiveness or live a lonely life and follow Islam all the way.

    Burqas are not form of oppression. God has given us our own will. It is our choice to follow his demand.

    Via holy books, God has asked even jewish and christian women to dress modestly. Woman in the past used to cover up and wore scarves. Women are naturally attractive in the eyes of men. Men are turned on by physical traits, while women are more into touch, and emotional bond. Burqa is there to protect women so as not to draw unnecessary attention to their bodies.

    look at the ads in the magazines.. naked or half naked women in front of cigarette ads, wine ads, car ads... Sports illustrated magazine.. etc.. this exploits women as sexual objects for mens desires... Religion helps women and keeps them from this exploitation. Also gay men ads, They are half naked most of the time.

  • LJay

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    Dec 29, 2012 3:29 PM GMT
    Do they have to wear anything under the burqa?
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    Dec 29, 2012 3:31 PM GMT
    ryan2013 said
    Shagglot said
    ryan2013 saidI do think it is a personal choice but I respect woman who do wear burqa. For a woman to wear a burqa makes them closer to God. it is one of the requirements for a woman to cover her body so no man look at her in a lustful way. I also understand all the weird looks woman get when she wears the attire, which makes it more difficult for them to follow God's path. That is why you don't see many young women wearing burgas in western countries because it is not the norm and not many people like the feeling of being an outsider.

    Burqas are not there to oppress women. Men and women are born differently and that is a scientific fact. Islam provides a role for men and for women. We all have a role to play until we die.

    Here we go. Yeah Islam also says being gay is a sin. How is that going for you? How do you live with that?


    Yes Islam also says being gay is a sin. I have been in dilemma towards how I want to pursue my life. I haven't decided which part to sacrifice; live my homosexual desires and ask for forgiveness or live a lonely life and follow Islam all the way.

    Burqas are not form of oppression. God has given us our own will. It is our choice to follow his demand.

    Via holy books, God has asked even jewish and christian women to dress modestly. Woman in the past used to cover up and wore scarves. Women are naturally attractive in the eyes of men. Men are turned on by physical traits, while women are more into touch, and emotional bond. Burqa is there to protect women so as not to draw unnecessary attention to their bodies.

    look at the ads in the magazines.. naked or half naked women in front of cigarette ads, wine ads, car ads... Sports illustrated magazine.. etc.. this exploits women as sexual objects for mens desires... Religion helps women and keeps them from this exploitation. Also gay men ads, They are half naked most of the time.


    Sort out your issues first man. You need to get over that fairy book and realize your life is yours own which shouldn't be commanded by a book. The moment you understand this you will see how things make sense. Right now you are deeply overpowered by the holy book you have been made to read right from the moment you were born.
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    Dec 29, 2012 3:55 PM GMT
    iracetris saidYou can't wear this in a bank:

    williamsport-bank-rob-12-3-e135463078118

    You can't wear this in court:

    kkk.gif


    Democracy is a balance between individual freedom and collective restriction.

    I'm also reminded that some gas station convenience stores have signs telling motorcyclists to remove their helmet before entering. A helmet can help disguise a person, especially when fitted with a tinted face shield, and also serve as head armor during a robbery.

    So does security trump religious freedom & expression in the case of the burqa? Does anyone know of any US court cases that have addressed this conflict?
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    Dec 29, 2012 4:28 PM GMT
    Shagglot said

    Sort out your issues first man. You need to get over that fairy book and realize your life is yours own which shouldn't be commanded by a book. The moment you understand this you will see how things make sense. Right now you are deeply overpowered by the holy book you have been made to read right from the moment you were born.


    First of all- Maybe you should read the book before being judgmental and calling the Quran as a fairy book. Quran is a guide to peaceful life, which gives structure and boundaries so humans don't go out of control. (Islam does not equal terrorism for those with ignorant beliefs.)
    It prohibits alcohol, drugs, lust, dis respectfulness towards parents. It gives us purpose in our life for those who are lost. You see, if one follows Islam, there are so many issues that wouldn't exist. I think following any religion properly improves ones personal life because Judaism and Christianity also have same roots . It is just matter of which religion is the right one. Which will only be known after death.

    "Sort out your issues first man." I don't think they are issues, It is matter of choice between what I want, Afterlife or worldly life. Issues will arise when I tell my parents about my sexuality.
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    Dec 29, 2012 4:52 PM GMT
    ryan2013 said[quote]Sort out your issues first man. You need to get over that fairy book and realize your life is yours own which shouldn't be commanded by a book. The moment you understand this you will see how things make sense. Right now you are deeply overpowered by the holy book you have been made to read right from the moment you were born.

    [quote]
    First of all- Maybe you should read the book before being judgmental and calling the Quran as a fairy book. Quran is a guide to peaceful life, which gives structure and boundaries so humans don't go out of control. (Islam does not equal terrorism for those with ignorant beliefs.)
    It prohibits alcohol, drugs, lust, dis respectfulness towards parents. It gives us purpose in our life for those who are lost. You see, if one follows Islam, there are so many issues that wouldn't exist. I think following any religion properly improves ones personal life because Judaism and Christianity also have same roots . It is just matter of which religion is the right one. Which will only be known after death.

    "Sort out your issues first man." I don't think they are issues, It is matter of choice between what I want, Afterlife or worldly life. Issues will arise when I tell my parents about my sexuality. [/quote]






    See this is the problems with religion. It just closes your mind. If I argue more it will be still useless as you have already accepted the mighty truth of your holy book. Whatever reasoning I will use it will be wasted. So yeah sort your issues.
    Be open to discussion and try to listen to others also.
    Please stop telling people to read that book. This is one way of avoiding all the logic. I know enough about that book and its follower. I don't need to read a god damn book to have a discussion with you.