banning the burqa

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    Dec 29, 2012 4:56 PM GMT
    ryan2013, the Quran also tells men to be modest, so it is a little ironic to find you here.
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    Dec 29, 2012 4:58 PM GMT
    waterloonicetop said
    ryan2013 said
    Sort out your issues first man. You need to get over that fairy book and realize your life is yours own which shouldn't be commanded by a book. The moment you understand this you will see how things make sense. Right now you are deeply overpowered by the holy book you have been made to read right from the moment you were born.


    First of all- Maybe you should read the book before being judgmental and calling the Quran as a fairy book. Quran is a guide to peaceful life, which gives structure and boundaries so humans don't go out of control. (Islam does not equal terrorism for those with ignorant beliefs.)
    It prohibits alcohol, drugs, lust, dis respectfulness towards parents. It gives us purpose in our life for those who are lost. You see, if one follows Islam, there are so many issues that wouldn't exist. I think following any religion properly improves ones personal life because Judaism and Christianity also have same roots . It is just matter of which religion is the right one. Which will only be known after death.

    "Sort out your issues first man." I don't think they are issues, It is matter of choices. Afterlife or worldly life. Only issue I will have is when I tell my parents about my sexuality.


    You dont think there are issues? Those peaceful people kill us on sight in countries where they dominate! Personally i think religion is child abuse and should be treated as such if taught to anyone under 18. All sections of religious text claiming gays should be discriminated against should be treated as hate literature and banned ( bible, koran, etc).

    All religions are irrational psychoses and should be treated as such. Muslims in particular have proven themslves incompatible with western culture, and although on an individual level i can appreciate individuals, i think ultimately a society that has proven itself to be a failure in the advancement of world culture, exploration, innovation, art, integration, society, preservation of archeology, and so many other values should be curtailed until such time that they join the modern world, can separate politics from dogma, and produce at least ONE decent recording act (which is the baseline minimum for proving a culture worthy of being allowed into western culture...NEVER trust any culture that doesnt DANCE)[/quote]

    Its just not western culture but any kind of culture except their own. When in minority they complain about how they are not allowed to practice their faith. When in majority their behavior is something better not to be said out loud. You can see it in those middle eastern countries.

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    Dec 29, 2012 5:04 PM GMT
    Dress however you want at home, but, in public, transacting business, and being among the general population, you need to be readily identifiable for safety and security reasons, whether you are at the mall, or the bank. That's the way it is in North America, and for good reason: we are on video everywhere. There's no place for covering up in American society. None, and, while Europe has mostly codified this into law, I suspect we may well see that here, too.

    If I go the bank, I'm asked to take off my prescription sunglasses. It has nothing to do with whatever false belief systems or oppression I'm involved with and everything to do with bank security.

    If a woman chooses to be suppressed in American society, that's her thing, but, we have every right (and should) require people to show their faces when conducting business and when among the general population at large.
  • bfirbs

    Posts: 55

    Dec 29, 2012 5:08 PM GMT
    I do believe in freedom of choice, but with todays problems with violence, terrorism and so on, I think the burqa should be banned. Anything that requires photo ID or an area with surveilance camera's should be able to see your face. I also believe if you choose to move to a country where your not originally from you should somewhat adopt their customs in public. YOU chose to move there, so you should adapt to them. How you choose to live in your own house is your own choice, as is your religion. But if you move there, you learn their language and you accept their customs.
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    Dec 29, 2012 5:11 PM GMT
    ryan2013 said
    Shagglot said

    Sort out your issues first man. You need to get over that fairy book and realize your life is yours own which shouldn't be commanded by a book. The moment you understand this you will see how things make sense. Right now you are deeply overpowered by the holy book you have been made to read right from the moment you were born.


    First of all- Maybe you should read the book before being judgmental and calling the Quran as a fairy book. Quran is a guide to peaceful life, which gives structure and boundaries so humans don't go out of control. (Islam does not equal terrorism for those with ignorant beliefs.)
    It prohibits alcohol, drugs, lust, dis respectfulness towards parents. It gives us purpose in our life for those who are lost. You see, if one follows Islam, there are so many issues that wouldn't exist. I think following any religion properly improves ones personal life because Judaism and Christianity also have same roots . It is just matter of which religion is the right one. Which will only be known after death.

    "Sort out your issues first man." I don't think they are issues, It is matter of choice between what I want, Afterlife or worldly life. Issues will arise when I tell my parents about my sexuality.


    Quoting from above" "so humans don't go out of control." Unfortunately, ryan1013 has a warped belief that humans need to be CONTROLLED by a false belief systems, and that non-compliance is not tolerated. Therein lies his problem. He ACTUALLY believes it's right. He ACTUALLY believes it's true. Religions / cults / false belief systems PREY upon the weak-minded among us. Likely, he probably believes those who don't subscribe to that false belief system be dealt with harshly (if you got him in a room alone being 100% honest). That's why this is a clear and present danger to all free thinking people. We don't need, nor want, to be controlled by the edict of a false belief system. Folks like ryan1013 can be a clear and present danger to the western way of life.

    He has every right to dress the way he wants at home, but, that right stops at the end of his nose, or his front door; not at mine.

    I've watched how these folks, locally, treat women. In many instances, it's deplorable. The really SICK thing is that the women subscribe to the non-sense, setting themselves back centuries in society. It's not just in foreign countries, but, it happens, here, too.
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    Dec 29, 2012 5:18 PM GMT
    iracetris saidYou can't wear this in a bank:

    williamsport-bank-rob-12-3-e135463078118

    You can't wear this in court:

    kkk.gif


    Democracy is a balance between individual freedom and collective restriction.


    And, this conclusion is logical, well-balanced, and for good reason.

    Unfortunately, false belief systems, religions , cults ARE NOT based upon good reason, truth, science, nor even the public good (they are, after all false).
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    Dec 29, 2012 5:21 PM GMT
    jayj014 saidIN the last couple of days Ive stumbled upon the talks given by ayaan hirsi ali about the intolerance of islam. Should the burqa be a matter of free choice or can the state step in if they feel that something like the burqa has a negative effect on society? which is more important individual choice or community/government concerns?



    Personally, I don't agree with Islamic culture stating that married women should be covered up. I think it's an archaic idea. Having said that if women want (this is the key word) to wear a burqa, they should be allowed to wear them. It's not up to the government to regulate the amount of clothing someone wears.
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    Dec 29, 2012 5:24 PM GMT
    redsoxfan791 said
    jayj014 saidIN the last couple of days Ive stumbled upon the talks given by ayaan hirsi ali about the intolerance of islam. Should the burqa be a matter of free choice or can the state step in if they feel that something like the burqa has a negative effect on society? which is more important individual choice or community/government concerns?



    Personally, I don't agree with Islamic culture stating that married women should be covered up. I think it's an archaic idea. Having said that if women want (this is the key word) to wear a burqa, they should be allowed to wear them. It's not up to the government to regulate the amount of clothing someone wears.


    Trying showing up to work naked. Try walking along the road naked. You'll find yourself cited for indecent exposure. You'll find your employer telling you to go put some clothes on or to seek mental health care.

    You don't have to be the brightest lamp on the block to understand that we are on video in public for good reason: security. Extremes are, and often should be, regulated, but protected. You wanna' be naked at home, fine, but, in public, clothing is required. There's also a requirement you show your face, so that the public knows who you are. It's not an intrusion, per se, but, something that contributes to the well being of business and the comfort level of The General Public. It is not unreasonable. You can still wear a bikini or thong at the pool, but, folks get to know who you are.

    False belief systems aside, one poster above mentioned this: in Western Culture we have an expectation you show your face. It's not an unreasonable one, in any way, and is not (yet) parochial in nature. It's about security and comfort levels. I don't get to wear a ski mask to the bank. The crazy woman shouldn't be given an exception any more than me. Ya' gotta' show your face, religious nut, or not.
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    Dec 29, 2012 6:03 PM GMT
    waterloonicetop said

    You dont think there are issues? Those peaceful people kill us on sight in countries where they dominate! Personally i think religion is child abuse and should be treated as such if taught to anyone under 18. All sections of religious text claiming gays should be discriminated against should be treated as hate literature and banned ( bible, koran, etc).

    All religions are irrational psychoses and should be treated as such. Muslims in particular have proven themslves incompatible with western culture, and although on an individual level i can appreciate individuals, i think ultimately a society that has proven itself to be a failure in the advancement of world culture, exploration, innovation, art, integration, society, preservation of archeology, and so many other values should be curtailed until such time that they join the modern world, can separate politics from dogma, and produce at least ONE decent recording act (which is the baseline minimum for proving a culture worthy of being allowed into western culture...NEVER trust any culture that doesnt DANCE)



    Not every muslim country is consisted of 100 percent muslims.
    Just because we are gay, doesn't mean all the religion that believes homosexuality is a sin is wrong.
    Islamic culture has contributed many things. http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/index.php?id=134284&page=articles

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    Dec 29, 2012 6:07 PM GMT
    Shagglot said

    See this is the problems with religion. It just closes your mind. If I argue more it will be still useless as you have already accepted the mighty truth of your holy book. Whatever reasoning I will use it will be wasted. So yeah sort your issues.
    Be open to discussion and try to listen to others also.
    Please stop telling people to read that book. This is one way of avoiding all the logic. I know enough about that book and its follower. I don't need to read a god damn book to have a discussion with you.


    I could say the same except you are against the holy book. I wasn't telling you to read the book. I said maybe you should, only a mere suggestion since you called it a fairy book.
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    Dec 29, 2012 6:12 PM GMT
    ryan2013 said
    Shagglot said
    ryan2013 said[quote]Sort out your issues first man. You need to get over that fairy book and realize your life is yours own which shouldn't be commanded by a book. The moment you understand this you will see how things make sense. Right now you are deeply overpowered by the holy book you have been made to read right from the moment you were born.

    [quote]
    First of all- Maybe you should read the book before being judgmental and calling the Quran as a fairy book. Quran is a guide to peaceful life, which gives structure and boundaries so humans don't go out of control. (Islam does not equal terrorism for those with ignorant beliefs.)
    It prohibits alcohol, drugs, lust, dis respectfulness towards parents. It gives us purpose in our life for those who are lost. You see, if one follows Islam, there are so many issues that wouldn't exist. I think following any religion properly improves ones personal life because Judaism and Christianity also have same roots . It is just matter of which religion is the right one. Which will only be known after death.

    "Sort out your issues first man." I don't think they are issues, It is matter of choice between what I want, Afterlife or worldly life. Issues will arise when I tell my parents about my sexuality.







    See this is the problems with religion. It just closes your mind. If I argue more it will be still useless as you have already accepted the mighty truth of your holy book. Whatever reasoning I will use it will be wasted. So yeah sort your issues.
    Be open to discussion and try to listen to others also.
    Please stop telling people to read that book. This is one way of avoiding all the logic. I know enough about that book and its follower. I don't need to read a god damn book to have a discussion with you.



    I could say the same except you are against the holy book. I wasn't telling you to read the book. I said maybe you should, only a suggestion since you called it a fairy book. [/quote]
    How is this same? I am against any book which preaches how should I live my life. Its just not your book. Sad thing is your book controls too many human being over this earth. Since you are gay, tell me how is it sin? Please don't quote from your holy book. Tell me your thinking. Why is it a sin? Don't tell me that since its written in Koran. Forget for once Koran and argue with whatever else you have there in your brain.
    Also tell me why is not a sin when a 50 year old guy marries a 10 year girl?
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    Dec 29, 2012 6:24 PM GMT
    chuckystud said

    Quoting from above" "so humans don't go out of control." Unfortunately, ryan1013 has a warped belief that humans need to be CONTROLLED by a false belief systems, and that non-compliance is not tolerated. Therein lies his problem. He ACTUALLY believes it's right. He ACTUALLY believes it's true. Religions / cults / false belief systems PREY upon the weak-minded among us. Likely, he probably believes those who don't subscribe to that false belief system be dealt with harshly (if you got him in a room alone being 100% honest). That's why this is a clear and present danger to all free thinking people. We don't need, nor want, to be controlled by the edict of a false belief system. Folks like ryan1013 can be a clear and present danger to the western way of life.

    He has every right to dress the way he wants at home, but, that right stops at the end of his nose, or his front door; not at mine.

    I've watched how these folks, locally, treat women. In many instances, it's deplorable. The really SICK thing is that the women subscribe to the non-sense, setting themselves back centuries in society. It's not just in foreign countries, but, it happens, here, too.


    Right!!!!!!!!! and Religion and domestic violence are irrelevant . Anyway- I have nothing to prove here. To each his own.
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    Dec 29, 2012 6:55 PM GMT
    Shagglot said

    How is this same? I am against any book which preaches how should I live my life. Its just not your book. Sad thing is your book controls too many human being over this earth. Since you are gay, tell me how is it sin? Please don't quote from your holy book. Tell me your thinking. Why is it a sin? Don't tell me that since its written in Koran. Forget for once Koran and argue with whatever else you have there in your brain.
    Also tell me why is not a sin when a 50 year old guy marries a 10 year girl?



    You were telling me I am close minded because of my belief and if you argue more, it it be useless and I feel the same way, No matter what I say, nothing will change.

    Sin and religion go hand in hand. I can't talk about sin and not refer to religion.

    As far as what is in my brain lol- I don't think being gay is wrong. Love is love regardless of gender. but I know the guilt will kill me because of the way I was brought up.

    physical make up of woman and man body, cultural roles, reproduction process, I also read anal sex is not good for the body. All these things makes me feel like it is not suppose to be this way.

  • Medjai

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    Dec 29, 2012 7:02 PM GMT
    People should be free to wear what they want of their own free will. Oppressing women with a burqa is not appropriate, however.

    There are some places where it isn't appropriate though. During egalitarian proceedings and the like a face is necessary. If, for religious reasons extended privacy and concessions are required, fine.
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    Dec 29, 2012 7:03 PM GMT
    ryan2013 said
    Shagglot said

    How is this same? I am against any book which preaches how should I live my life. Its just not your book. Sad thing is your book controls too many human being over this earth. Since you are gay, tell me how is it sin? Please don't quote from your holy book. Tell me your thinking. Why is it a sin? Don't tell me that since its written in Koran. Forget for once Koran and argue with whatever else you have there in your brain.
    Also tell me why is not a sin when a 50 year old guy marries a 10 year girl?



    You were telling me I am close minded because of my belief and if you argue more, it it be useless and I feel the same way, No matter what I say, nothing will change.

    Sin and religion go hand in hand. I can't talk about sin and not refer to religion.

    As far as what is in my brain lol- I don't think being gay is wrong. Love is love regardless of gender. but I know the guilt will kill me because of the way I was brought up.

    physical make up of woman and man body, cultural roles, reproduction process, I also read anal sex is not good for the body. All these things makes me feel like it is not suppose to be this way.


    What physical make up? Do you think man and woman don't do Anal sex? Do you think those straight couple who can't have babies are not allowed to be together?
    You didn't answer me whether an old guy marrying an underage girl is sin or not? Didn't that happen in your holy book? Isn't it a sin?
    Sin and religion don't go hand in hand. I know Killing someone is sin not because some book told me because I use my own thinking.
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    Dec 29, 2012 7:05 PM GMT
    Bicuriouscool saideveryone should have a free choice of their own sexual preference, clothes and speech...(add to the list)


    +100
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    Dec 29, 2012 7:07 PM GMT
    burkatalk.jpg
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    Dec 29, 2012 7:27 PM GMT
    ryan2013 said

    Burqas are not form of oppression. God has given us our own will. It is our choice to follow his demand.

    Via holy books, God has asked even jewish and christian women to dress modestly. Woman in the past used to cover up and wore scarves. Women are naturally attractive in the eyes of men. Men are turned on by physical traits, while women are more into touch, and emotional bond. Burqa is there to protect women so as not to draw unnecessary attention to their bodies.

    look at the ads in the magazines.. naked or half naked women in front of cigarette ads, wine ads, car ads... Sports illustrated magazine.. etc.. this exploits women as sexual objects for mens desires... Religion helps women and keeps them from this exploitation. Also gay men ads, They are half naked most of the time.


    This strikes me as being unfair to women and utterly patriarchal. Men are lustful, so women should be covered up from head to toe? Clearly the problem is men's lust, not women's innate physical beauty. If women were in charge, maybe they would invent some sort of blindfold for the men to wear, so the women could live freely.
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    Dec 29, 2012 7:31 PM GMT
    Shagglot said
    What physical make up? Do you think man and woman don't do Anal sex? Do you think those straight couple who can't have babies are not allowed to be together?
    You didn't answer me whether an old guy marrying an underage girl is sin or not? Didn't that happen in your holy book? Isn't it a sin?



    I am referring to genitals make up of male and female. They are structured for it to be combined during intimacy. Yes I am aware straight couple have anal sex, but it is forbidden in many religion.


    The marriage happened 1400 ago, not today. At that time, their marriage was not considered unusual and the proof is that the enemies of Muslims at that time did not criticize this marriage. They attacked prophet Mohammad on many issues, yet they didn't criticize his marriage to Aisha.

    God wanted prophet Mohammad to marry a young girl so that she can outlive him by many years so that she can serve an important reference and resource for Muslims long after prophet Mohammad dies.

    She indicated that it was a great honor and privilege to be married to prophet Mohammad. If she did not marry him, she would have lived and died as an ordinary woman. She became famous and gained a special status of respect because of her marriage to prophet Mohammad.

    The marriage was taken with the girl's consent.


    ALSO I am not going to be judgmental about the gay issue considering I am a gay man myself, which makes me a total hypocrite. So if I am being offensive to anyone with my gay issue, I apologize. I wish there was a way around the religion, so I can be happy.

    And I sooooooooooo made this thread off topic. Sorry about that.

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    Dec 29, 2012 7:33 PM GMT
    bfirbs saidI do believe in freedom of choice, but with todays problems with violence, terrorism and so on, I think the burqa should be banned. Anything that requires photo ID or an area with surveilance camera's should be able to see your face. I also believe if you choose to move to a country where your not originally from you should somewhat adopt their customs in public. YOU chose to move there, so you should adapt to them. How you choose to live in your own house is your own choice, as is your religion. But if you move there, you learn their language and you accept their customs.

    So if we could tag people with a bar-code (or NFC ID) and surveillance cameras could pick that up -- likely better than a face, anyhow -- it would be OK?


    bfirbs saidI also believe if you choose to move to a country where your not originally from you should somewhat adopt their customs in public. YOU chose to move there, so you should adapt to them. How you choose to live in your own house is your own choice, as is your religion. But if you move there, you learn their language and you accept their customs.

    If everyone moving here conformed to existing standards, we'd be living in tepees.

    What if someone born here wanted to wear a burqa?
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    Dec 29, 2012 7:35 PM GMT
    ryan2013 said[quote][cite]Shagglot said[/cite]
    What physical make up? Do you think man and woman don't do Anal sex? Do you think those straight couple who can't have babies are not allowed to be together?
    You didn't answer me whether an old guy marrying an underage girl is sin or not? Didn't that happen in your holy book? Isn't it a sin? [quote]


    I am referring to genitals make up of male and female. They are structured for it to be combined during intimacy. Yes I am aware straight couple have anal sex, but it is forbidden in many religion.


    The marriage happened 1400 ago, not today. At that time, their marriage was not considered unusual and the proof is that the enemies of Muslims at that time did not criticize this marriage. They attacked prophet Mohammad on many issues, yet they didn't criticize his marriage to Aisha.

    God wanted prophet Mohammad to marry a young girl so that she can outlive him by many years so that she can serve an important reference and resource for Muslims long after prophet Mohammad dies.

    She indicated that it was a great honor and privilege to be married to prophet Mohammad. If she did not marry him, she would have lived and died as an ordinary woman. She became famous and gained a special status of respect because of her marriage to prophet Mohammad.

    The marriage was taken with the girl's consent.


    ALSO I am not going to be judgmental about the gay issue considering I am a gay man myself, which makes me a total hypocrite. So if I am being offensive to anyone with my gay issue, I apologize. I wish there was a way around the religion, so I can be happy.

    And I sooooooooooo made this thread off topic. Sorry about that.


    You say it happened long time ago so its not a sin. Then the book was written also a long time ago. Why do you need to follow that book in this age of science and logic? You can't choose something which favors you and then reject things which you can't justify.
    Girl's consent at 10 year? Are you kidding me?
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    Dec 29, 2012 7:37 PM GMT
    ryan2013 saidIt is just matter of which religion is the right one. Which will only be known after death.

    What if there is no supreme being and no religion is right?
    How would you find that out even after death?


    ryan2013 saidIt is matter of choice between what I want, Afterlife or worldly life. Issues will arise when I tell my parents about my sexuality.

    Yet you had no choice about whether you were born gay.
    And if there is no afterlife? What sort of choice are you left with?
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    Dec 29, 2012 7:40 PM GMT
    waterloonicetop said

    Right. If they think it is a sin "for themselves" no problem. When they advocate it in public "for others", then they can get the hell out! There is absolutely no wiggle room here. You are a hypocrite to the extreme. If you lived in most middle eastern countries you would be brutally Murdered for being yourself, by tolerating even a LITTLE of that sort of barbarism you are subhuman.


    Yes I agree I would be killed if I was in my country. I think only God has the right to judge us so I am against the punishments that other humans think they can bestow upon us just for being gay.

    I feel hypocritical . I can't change religion because of the way I was brought up, and I can't change my sexuality and that's my life story. .

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    Dec 29, 2012 7:44 PM GMT
    calibro saidi like how a lot of people assume the burqa is an object of female oppression without asking the women themselves if they mind.


    This.

    Many devout Muslimah (Muslim females) believe that modest atire (of which the burqa and similar apparel may bend toward a bit of an extreme expression of this) is a mark of submission to Allah.

    Further, Muslimah see it as a mark of submission to their fathers (or after marriage, to their husbands). It is as much of a natural expression of themselves as it might be for western women to wear styles that embrace their strength and individuality.

    Personally, I find such a tradition to be reactionary and when actually forced upon women who would otherwise choose to dress differently, the practice becomes repulsive.

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    Dec 29, 2012 7:50 PM GMT
    ryan2013 saidAs far as what is in my brain lol- I don't think being gay is wrong. Love is love regardless of gender. but I know the guilt will kill me because of the way I was brought up.

    physical make up of woman and man body, cultural roles, reproduction process, I also read anal sex is not good for the body. All these things makes me feel like it is not suppose to be this way.


    I feel bad that guilt wrought by your upbringing is killing you. Your life matters more than that. And an upbringing that makes you regret living has failed you.

    And "feel like it is not suppose to be..." in the second paragraph is another failure of your upbringing. Purposed derived from archaic misunderstandings and misappropriations of what it means to be human (or alive) will also contribute to your confusion.

    Sorry, I don't mean to jump on you for your upbringing, but you matter more than you have given yourself credit. If you believe in Allah, then Allah made you this way. Those who do not understand Allah's purpose with you will always attempt to deceive you about your worth to Allah. If you were not meant to be gay, Allah would not have made you this way. For anyone to question that is to question his will and his wisdom.

    Stop letting guilt about your misunderstanding about Allah's purpose for you prevent you from living a whole and moral life. Anyone who claims that Allah made you just so that you could serve as a cautionary tale to others is perverting the will of Allah and blaspheming him.

    Did Allah make men black? Should those black men listen to the blasphemers who insist that Allah thought those men were less valuable than white men? Allah made those men black, and he did it for his purpose. Allah made you gay. Stop questioning that and thank him.