What is the source of homosexuality?

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    Feb 23, 2013 3:47 PM GMT
    CuriousJockAZ said
    ART_DECO said
    I would instead propose Nature and Environment, which doesn't sound half so clever. We are born with our sexuality predetermined.


    I'm not sure I can agree with our "sexuality being predetermined". It's certainly a possibility, but one that has not been proven. It seems just as likely that humans are born with a "gay gene" and "straight" gene, and then environment and life experiences in our early stages pull us in one direction or the other in terms of a sexual orientation that feels natural for that individual.

    There is no evidence for that theory. Except among those who argue for ideological, religious & political purposes, but not for scientific reasons, that being gay is a choice, or a mistake of our experiences & life influences.

    With the implication that as a choice it can be a wrong choice, subject to societal review and correction. Are you quoting from the works of Marcus Bachmann?
  • CuriousJockAZ

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    Feb 23, 2013 3:54 PM GMT
    ART_DECO said
    With the implication that as a choice it can be a wrong choice, subject to societal review and correction. Are you quoting from the works of Marcus Bachmann?


    Nope...I'm quoting from my own personal belief based on my own unique experience coming to terms with my own sexual orientation -- nothing more, nothing less. I in no way implied that gay is a "choice", nor do I think that. However, I don't necessarily believe we are born gay either. At best, I think we are born to be predisposed to certain emotions or desires, and then the environment and/or life experiences we get in our early years leads us towards one way or the other --- AND that can change along the way as your own life experience has shown.
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    Feb 23, 2013 4:08 PM GMT
    HottJoe saidMusicals are to blame.icon_mad.gif


    No, scientific studies have determined it is opera.

    For example, if you listen to Tristan more than a few times you become a leather man.
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    Feb 23, 2013 4:26 PM GMT
    I hope I don't get bashed for this but I have always understood it as basic science. Being gay is a trait. just as we humans are made of countless little differences, black hair as opposed to blond, dimples as opposed to freckles, body type to body type. So too is sexuality. There are many different variables, it is not simply one or the other as so many believe. Some will be heterosexual others born homosexual. Bi, leaning more towards men, leaning more towards women. Just as our very being consists of a diverse selection of genetic traits, sexuality is no different. People make it seem so difficult. I forgot the name of the system but I learned that at a very young age. it's easily explainable.
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    Feb 23, 2013 4:28 PM GMT
    Ah somebody beat me too it already :/
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    Feb 23, 2013 4:35 PM GMT
    CuriousJockAZ said
    ART_DECO said
    With the implication that as a choice it can be a wrong choice, subject to societal review and correction. Are you quoting from the works of Marcus Bachmann?

    Nope...I'm quoting from my own personal belief based on my own unique experience coming to terms with my own sexual orientation -- nothing more, nothing less. I in no way implied that gay is a "choice", nor do I think that. However, I don't necessarily believe we are born gay either. At best, I think we are born to be predisposed to certain emotions or desires, and then the environment and/or life experiences we get in our early years leads us towards one way or the other --- AND that can change along the way as your own life experience has shown.

    Amazing! You just said orientation can be changed by external post-natal factors, but in a different way than I did in describing the logical result of your views. Yet it means the same thing - the potential temptation to try to "cure" or prevent men from developing into gays is the same.

    If orientation is a product of these non-genetic factors, then orientation can be changed during one's lifetime, and so therefore you concur with the theories of the sexual reparation therapists like Marcus Bachmann. Correct?
  • CuriousJockAZ

    Posts: 24068

    Feb 23, 2013 4:50 PM GMT
    ART_DECO said
    If orientation is a product of these non-genetic factors, then orientation can be changed during one's lifetime, and so therefore you concur with the theories of the sexual reparation therapists like Marcus Bachmann. Correct?


    I'll thank you for NOT putting words in my mouth. I said in my first post that I felt it was more a combination of "Nature and Nurture". You preferred "Nature & Environment" and I will give you that. However, at no time did I suggest sexual orientation is a choice. Now, whether or not sexual orientation can be changed is up for debate. There are certainly documented cases where this has been done, so maybe there is some merit to it. I think a better way to put it might be that our sexual orientation is capable of evolving. For instance, I have a friend who was out and proud "gay" for 20 years, had never had sex with a woman until he was 38 years old. He is now happily married with 2 kids. We have had many discussions about this because I was curious..."are you STILL gay or have gay feelings". His answer remains (and he's now been married 11 years) that he had never had sex with a woman and that when he did he, much to his surprise, really enjoyed it. He then fell in love with her. No one was more surprised than he was at this turn of events because he had 2 LTR with men and was at one time very happy in them. He claims that he has absolutely no desire to have sex with men because he is head over heels in love with his wife, though he enjoyed it in the past when he did in his younger years. Did he suddenly choose to be "straight"? No. More appropriately, and for everyone it's different, his sexual orientation EVOLVED due to his own personal experience. I know many gay guys who were "straight" for years, then once they experimented with men, they found something they enjoyed more...their sexuality evolved into something different than it had been for years. Sometimes you don't know you will like or dislike something until you have actually tried it. Were they always gay? Who knows. Maybe...maybe they just evolved and their tastes changed once they had experienced something different than what they thought they liked.


    edited to add: By the way, my gay friend who turned straight (or whose sexuality "evolved") feels pretty strongly that he may have never been able to make the transition if he were not able to share with his future wife that he had previously had gay relationships. In this particular case, she knew he was gay before they had ever dated or slept together -- so it wasn't something he had to ever hide from her, but rather something she had to come to terms with and accept. That was actually a big hurdle they had to get past before she would agree to marry him...and it took some time for him to earn her trust.
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    Feb 23, 2013 4:55 PM GMT
    Aristoshark said
    CuriousJockAZ saidYou mean MY thinking is in line with "current scientific thinking"? Wow, pigs really DO fly icon_lol.gif

    Don't be silly. You may be conservative, but I've never known you to be one of those kooky science-denying rightists.


    Ooops, sorry I'm late getting here ... got stuck in traffic icon_wink.gificon_wink.gificon_wink.gificon_wink.gif
  • kencarson

    Posts: 224

    Feb 23, 2013 5:02 PM GMT
    I'm pretty sure it's Judy Garland.
  • somedaytoo

    Posts: 704

    Feb 23, 2013 5:03 PM GMT
    I knew I was gay from my earliest memory. Sure, I didn't know what the word "gay" meant, but I knew who I was.

    I was brought up in a wonderful, religious family. Never abused or had anything done to me that would have caused me to change who I was. So Baby, I was born this way!
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    Feb 23, 2013 5:06 PM GMT
    moosekitty saidEvery species has homosexuality exhibited. Remember the gay penguins at the Cleveland Zoo a couple years ago. Penguins are monogamous and they had a couple that had been together for over seven years with no offspring. When they put out the press release other zoos started putting in their stories of gay tigers, elephants, etc.

    The question often comes up, "What makes someone gay?" Ever notice that no one asks, "Why are you straight?" If the answer is, "Because that is normal." I'd say the same thing. Being gay IS normal. It's just not for everyone.


    When I came out that question was asked to be constantly "You chose to be gay, right?" I would respond with "you chose to be straight, right?" and thing s degrade from there. I like to think I jarred them into turning their brain on, but so many out there let Limbaugh and Beck do their thinking for them that their brains are permanently in sleep mode.

    I also have a gay dog. Taking him to the park is a hilarity; female dogs he gives one sniff and walks away, male dogs(especially bigger ones) he instantly gets and erection and tries to mount them. I understand there are dominance rituals to consider, but when we had a neighbor with a huge pittbull, who was undoubtedly dominate, he would do the same thing, and the pittbull wouldn't budge. He would also bite the scruff and groom him; further signs of his submissiveness.
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    Feb 23, 2013 5:13 PM GMT
    Someone still questions nurture or nature?

    If only we could just look at nature to figure that out.

    gay-penguins3.jpg
    Penguins obviously raised by overbearing mothers and uninvolved fathers
  • Timbales

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    Feb 23, 2013 5:19 PM GMT
    Homosexuality is a societal concept.
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    Feb 23, 2013 5:32 PM GMT
    tyklong saidI have always believed that being gay is something i was born with, that nothing could have changed that, and it's neither my fault nor anyone else's fault for making me gay. But my friends have been asking me weird questions and making assumptions that being gay could be caused by many things, such as some prisonners came back home gay because of having homosexual sex in the prison for too long, or drinking too much soy milk can make you gay,...

    I have always been bashing such thinkings, but then recently i read more about what determines sexual orientation, and haven't found any clear explanations. The most recent one i read they mentioned epi-marks but still a theory.
    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/scientists-uncover-source-homosexuality-article-1.1218017

    So what do you think of the source of being gay, and how do you use that to shut one guy up if he keeps saying things like "if you hadn't .... then you wouldn't have been gay"?


    In my human sexuality class one cannot become gay by association (such as molestation), and that prison theory is just bizarre. My book talked about how heterosexual prisoners who end up engaging in homosexual acts (whether by choice, or force) tend to go back to having heterosexual relationships once they have been released. The thought that one can also acquire sexual orientation based on their diet is rather ludicrous as well. I've always told my friends who have asked what the cause is (which heck if I know or care) and I just explain that it is genetics and ask what caused them to be heterosexual. Of course as with me, they can't really answer. On a side note though, that article seems a bit strange in my opinion as they seemed to skim over the fact animals have been engage in homosexuality for quite some time.Especially in the case of bonobos...
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    Feb 23, 2013 5:34 PM GMT
    Aristoshark said
    CuriousJockAZ saidIn all seriousness, I don't think it's actually been proven if gay is the result of NATURE or NURTURE....though it's been endlessly debated. I've always sort of believed it was a combination of the two.

    I believe that's in line with the current scientific thinking.
    Actually, no evidence suggests that nurture plays any role. The formation of the brain structures that lead to sexual orientation are primarily developed before a child is ever born.
  • Medjai

    Posts: 2671

    Feb 23, 2013 5:36 PM GMT
    CuriousJockAZ said
    Fiyero27 saidExcept science shows your brain develops your orientation before you're born



    I don't think this has actually been proven to be true beyond a reasonable doubt. "Science" can attempt to get us to believe anything. I'm not saying it is necessarily false, just merely pointing out that there is also likely "scientific evidence" that refutes this.


    Exactly. As convenient and pretty as as it may be, there is still nothing to support the view besides wishful thinking.
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    Feb 23, 2013 5:42 PM GMT
    Medjai said
    CuriousJockAZ said
    Fiyero27 saidExcept science shows your brain develops your orientation before you're born



    I don't think this has actually been proven to be true beyond a reasonable doubt. "Science" can attempt to get us to believe anything. I'm not saying it is necessarily false, just merely pointing out that there is also likely "scientific evidence" that refutes this.


    Exactly. As convenient and pretty as as it may be, there is still nothing to support the view besides wishful thinking.
    All scientific research points in that direction.http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14146-gay-brains-structured-like-those-of-the-opposite-sex.html

    Brain scans have provided the most compelling evidence yet that being gay or straight is a biologically fixed trait.

    The scans reveal that in gay people, key structures of the brain governing emotion, mood, anxiety and aggressiveness resemble those in straight people of the opposite sex.

    The differences are likely to have been forged in the womb or in early infancy, says Ivanka Savic, who conducted the study at the Karolinska Institute in Stockholm, Sweden.


    http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/workinpsychiatry/specialinterestgroups/gaylesbian/submissiontothecofe/psychiatryandlgbpeople.aspx

    Despite almost a century of psychoanalytic and psychological speculation, there is no substantive evidence to support the suggestion that the nature of parenting or early childhood experiences have any role in the formation of a person’s fundamental heterosexual or homosexual orientation (Bell and Weinberg, 197icon_cool.gif.


    It would appear that sexual orientation is biological in nature, determined by genetic factors (Mustanski et al, 2005) and/or the early uterine environment (Blanchard et al. 2006). Sexual orientation is therefore not a choice, though sexual behaviour clearly is.
  • Medjai

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    Feb 23, 2013 5:48 PM GMT
    Fiyero27 said
    Medjai said
    CuriousJockAZ said
    Fiyero27 saidExcept science shows your brain develops your orientation before you're born



    I don't think this has actually been proven to be true beyond a reasonable doubt. "Science" can attempt to get us to believe anything. I'm not saying it is necessarily false, just merely pointing out that there is also likely "scientific evidence" that refutes this.


    Exactly. As convenient and pretty as as it may be, there is still nothing to support the view besides wishful thinking.
    All scientific research points in that direction.http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14146-gay-brains-structured-like-those-of-the-opposite-sex.html

    Brain scans have provided the most compelling evidence yet that being gay or straight is a biologically fixed trait.

    The scans reveal that in gay people, key structures of the brain governing emotion, mood, anxiety and aggressiveness resemble those in straight people of the opposite sex.

    The differences are likely to have been forged in the womb or in early infancy, says Ivanka Savic, who conducted the study at the Karolinska Institute in Stockholm, Sweden.


    1) Those structures can form after birth. The brain is not fully fixed at birth. Especially since there's no specific feature(s) associated with homosexuality, we can't say what's pre- and what's post-birth.

    2) The brain is highly malleable at a young age. It could easily be social, environmental, or any number of things. Hell, it could be in flux until puberty for all we know. There's nothing solid to back up any perspective.
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    Feb 23, 2013 6:05 PM GMT
    CuriousJockAZ said
    ART_DECO said
    If orientation is a product of these non-genetic factors, then orientation can be changed during one's lifetime, and so therefore you concur with the theories of the sexual reparation therapists like Marcus Bachmann. Correct?


    I'll thank you for NOT putting words in my mouth. I said in my first post that I felt it was more a combination of "Nature and Nurture". You preferred "Nature & Environment" and I will give you that. However, at no time did I suggest sexual orientation is a choice. Now, whether or not sexual orientation can be changed is up for debate. There are certainly documented cases where this has been done, so maybe there is some merit to it. I think a better way to put it might be that our sexual orientation is capable of evolving. For instance, I have a friend who was out and proud "gay" for 20 years, had never had sex with a woman until he was 38 years old. He is now happily married with 2 kids. We have had many discussions about this because I was curious..."are you STILL gay or have gay feelings". His answer remains (and he's now been married 11 years) that he had never had sex with a woman and that when he did he, much to his surprise, really enjoyed it. He then fell in love with her. No one was more surprised than he was at this turn of events because he had 2 LTR with men and was at one time very happy in them. He claims that he has absolutely no desire to have sex with men because he is head over heels in love with his wife, though he enjoyed it in the past when he did in his younger years. Did he suddenly choose to be "straight"? No. More appropriately, and for everyone it's different, his sexual orientation EVOLVED due to his own personal experience. I know many gay guys who were "straight" for years, then once they experimented with men, they found something they enjoyed more...their sexuality evolved into something different than it had been for years. Sometimes you don't know you will like or dislike something until you have actually tried it. Were they always gay? Who knows. Maybe...maybe they just evolved and their tastes changed once they had experienced something different than what they thought they liked.


    edited to add: By the way, my gay friend who turned straight (or whose sexuality "evolved") feels pretty strongly that he may have never been able to make the transition if he were not able to share with his future wife that he had previously had gay relationships. In this particular case, she knew he was gay before they had ever dated or slept together -- so it wasn't something he had to ever hide from her, but rather something she had to come to terms with and accept. That was actually a big hurdle they had to get past before she would agree to marry him...and it took some time for him to earn her trust.



    I do share the same view as yours. A lot of people (especially gays) are afraid to attribute the causes to both Nature and Nurture. They feel that it's only the genes (i.e., Nature) and that things were set for us before we were born. What they fail to realize is that if it really is only the genes during the prenatal formation, then that 'gay gene' can be extracted/replaced to make every fetus straight.

    On a more philosophical level, it is easier to accept life for people when they can attribute everything to "Nature" as the reason (because their hands would be clean). What people fail to realize is that "Nurture" (especially during the formative years) is just as random as Nature in which they have no control over -- and that their hands are just as clean as well and that it's not something one can cure or needs curing.
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    Feb 23, 2013 6:26 PM GMT
    theantijock saidSomeone still questions nurture or nature?

    If only we could just look at nature to figure that out.

    gay-penguins3.jpg
    Penguins obviously raised by overbearing mothers and uninvolved fathers

    LMAO!

    I love all the right-wing talking points here, proposing reasons that are correctable by intervention and therapy. And why? So gay can be corrected, of course. That's the subliminal message they're selling here. Right out of the Marcus Bachmann treatment book, along with others of his kind.

    Beware the gay man who's ashamed of himself, who secretly wants to be cured, who wishes this "curse" had never visited him. Because he wants YOU to be cured, too.

    Thanks, but no thanks. Go cure yourself, and go to Hell for all I care, but leave the rest of us alone. I'm quite happy living the way Nature intended me to be. icon_biggrin.gif
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    Feb 23, 2013 6:31 PM GMT
    Evadybody Gay! (Peter Griffin Voice) icon_smile.gif
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    Feb 23, 2013 6:38 PM GMT
    CuriousJockAZ said
    ART_DECO said
    If orientation is a product of these non-genetic factors, then orientation can be changed during one's lifetime, and so therefore you concur with the theories of the sexual reparation therapists like Marcus Bachmann. Correct?


    I'll thank you for NOT putting words in my mouth. I said in my first post that I felt it was more a combination of "Nature and Nurture". You preferred "Nature & Environment" and I will give you that. However, at no time did I suggest sexual orientation is a choice. Now, whether or not sexual orientation can be changed is up for debate. There are certainly documented cases where this has been done, so maybe there is some merit to it. I think a better way to put it might be that our sexual orientation is capable of evolving. For instance, I have a friend who was out and proud "gay" for 20 years, had never had sex with a woman until he was 38 years old. He is now happily married with 2 kids. We have had many discussions about this because I was curious..."are you STILL gay or have gay feelings". His answer remains (and he's now been married 11 years) that he had never had sex with a woman and that when he did he, much to his surprise, really enjoyed it. He then fell in love with her. No one was more surprised than he was at this turn of events because he had 2 LTR with men and was at one time very happy in them. He claims that he has absolutely no desire to have sex with men because he is head over heels in love with his wife, though he enjoyed it in the past when he did in his younger years. Did he suddenly choose to be "straight"? No. More appropriately, and for everyone it's different, his sexual orientation EVOLVED due to his own personal experience. I know many gay guys who were "straight" for years, then once they experimented with men, they found something they enjoyed more...their sexuality evolved into something different than it had been for years. Sometimes you don't know you will like or dislike something until you have actually tried it. Were they always gay? Who knows. Maybe...maybe they just evolved and their tastes changed once they had experienced something different than what they thought they liked.


    edited to add: By the way, my gay friend who turned straight (or whose sexuality "evolved") feels pretty strongly that he may have never been able to make the transition if he were not able to share with his future wife that he had previously had gay relationships. In this particular case, she knew he was gay before they had ever dated or slept together -- so it wasn't something he had to ever hide from her, but rather something she had to come to terms with and accept. That was actually a big hurdle they had to get past before she would agree to marry him...and it took some time for him to earn her trust.



    *reads LONG post by Curiousjock about a BISEXUAL he knows that fell in love with a woman*
    Nice story Curiousjock, but nothing to do with gay.
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    Feb 23, 2013 6:45 PM GMT
    experiences growing up if someone in your childhood force you to do blowjob or if expose to girly stuff and all girly environment or genes and gay porn that was the time when i finally confirmed that i was gay, im aroused. .icon_cry.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Feb 23, 2013 7:31 PM GMT
    Yaorem saidexperiences growing up if someone in your childhood force you to do blowjob or if expose to girly stuff and all girly environment or genes and gay porn that was the time when i finally confirmed that i was gay, im aroused. .icon_cry.gif


    Real shit, childhood sexual assault can really fuck your sexual course up.
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    Feb 23, 2013 7:46 PM GMT
    aidenMaximus said


    I do share the same view as yours. A lot of people (especially gays) are afraid to attribute the causes to both Nature and Nurture. They feel that it's only the genes (i.e., Nature) and that things were set for us before we were born. What they fail to realize is that if it really is only the genes during the prenatal formation, then that 'gay gene' can be extracted/replaced to make every fetus straight.

    On a more philosophical level, it is easier to accept life for people when they can attribute everything to "Nature" as the reason (because their hands would be clean). What people fail to realize is that "Nurture" (especially during the formative years) is just as random as Nature in which they have no control over -- and that their hands are just as clean as well and that it's not something one can cure or needs curing.
    Who said it's a singular gay gene? Being in the genes does not mean it's not a very complex array of hormonal/genetic changes that can't simply be extracted out.