Mormons need to be taught a lesson...

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    Nov 06, 2008 4:24 PM GMT
    Dear Swim,

    Having been born and raise in Los Angeles it would have been remis of me not to do so, to answer your question yes I did $$$$$$ mostly as I nolonger live in California it would kind of difficult for me to donate my time.

    Why would you even ask me such a question? Did you you?icon_rolleyes.gif

    Dear Surreal,

    I know more about both cultures because my mother was southern
    and my dad cuban believe me I know the religious under-tones because I'm a mixture of both.

    My point is if you are going to raw numbers up there as to who is responsible for passage of this ban then you use all the numbers.
    Because it give the impression that two groups were responsible and that is just wrong.

    I stand by my earlier post.
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    Nov 06, 2008 4:30 PM GMT
    Actually the racial breakdown is very interesting, and I'm not saying that any specific racial group caused proposition 8 to pass, but African Americans are the outlier compared to the other races that came fairly close to either side of the 50% mark:

    White: 51 no, 49 yes; Asians: 51 no, 49 yes; Hispanics: 47 no, 53 yes; African Americans: 30 no, 70 yes; other: 49 no, 51 yes.

    For full details see the URL below.

    http://media.sacbee.com/smedia/2008/11/05/18/prop8.source.prod_affiliate.4.pdf

    The good news is that voters under 30 voted almost 2 -1 opposed to 8, and almost the exact opposite of older voters, so time and demographics are on our side -- and probably won't take all that long as the shift has been pretty significant in just the 8 yrs since 22.
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    Nov 06, 2008 4:31 PM GMT


    We know most of the US finds Canada a little odd, but here:

    "On July 20, 2005, Canada became the fourth country in the world to legalize same-sex marriage nationwide with the approval of the Civil Marriage Act. Court decisions, starting in 2003, each already legalized same-sex marriage in eight out of ten provinces and one of three territories, whose residents comprised about 90% of Canada's population. Before passage of the Act, more than 3,000 same-sex couples had already married in these areas.[2] Most legal benefits commonly associated with marriage had been extended to cohabiting same-sex couples since 1999.

    The Civil Marriage Act was introduced by Paul Martin's Liberal government in the Canadian House of Commons on February 1, 2005 as Bill C-38. It was passed by the House of Commons on June 28, 2005, by the Senate on July 19, 2005, and it received Royal Assent the following day. On December 7, 2006, the House of Commons effectively reaffirmed the legislation by a vote of 175 to 123, defeating a Conservative motion to examine the matter again. This was the third vote supporting same-sex marriage taken by three Parliaments under three Prime Ministers in three different years."

    There was a suggestion of a referendum by the religous right and money came from (where else) the US. That might have been when they shot themselves in the foot as most Canadians take exception to another country meddling in Canadian human rights, which we cherish mightily.

    Why not petition your new and excellent President directly?
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    Nov 06, 2008 4:33 PM GMT
    Ducky44 I am not saying that two groups are solely responsible, obviously anyone who voted "Yes" is responsible for the passing of this proposition.
    It is irrelevant anyways what is done is done.

    I checked CNN recently and noticed that similar propositions were passed in other states including Florida and Arizona. The bigger problem facing the US gay population is how to move forward. Not being American I struggle to understand what power rests with the Federal Government versus the individual States. Is this something that has to go to the US Supreme Court before it is finally decided? Or is it something that each State supreme court has the power to decide (and I thought that was what happened in California)?

    It could be one of those issues that time will help solve. The offspring of baby boomers are much more liberal about these issues than their parents. As they grow older and become more powerful these wrongs could be righted.
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    Nov 06, 2008 4:36 PM GMT
    SurrealLife said
    The Mormon church is not the only one that is virulently anti-gay. They were just more active in the Proposition 8 battle.

    This makes me realize that there can be such a thing as too much democracy. I personally don't think the voting public should have the right to overturn a court decision affecting human rights. Vulnerable minorities sometimes need to be protected from the majority.


    While the Mormons aren't the only ones, they would be a good 'example' to start with. If we focused on them and won our battle to have their tax exempt status removed, then the other churches would think twice about trying to remove our rights.

    The current administration has done two major things against our constitution:
    1. Blurred if not almost erased the line that separates church and state. That separation was written into the constitution for exactly the reason that we are experiencing these awful acts of the removal of civil and human rights. The freedom of religion is doesn't state 'Christian' religion, or for that matter any faith at all.
    2. Set up the idea that a simple majority rules in all cases (no matter how small). The complexity of our government and checks and balances was put there to prevent the majority from removing the rights of a minority since the very fact that a minority is a minority would prevent it from ever gaining rights.

    I think that signing the petition is a great way to start. If the Mormons have there tax exempt status removed, there would be a huge influx of money into the government, and the Catholic Church (amongst others) would start to quake in their boots.

    I'm all for freedom of religion until that freedom for some starts to become less freedom for others.
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    Nov 06, 2008 4:48 PM GMT

    If freedom of religion is so powerful, perhaps a gay religion screaming violation of its freedom to marry members might be just the ticket!
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    Nov 06, 2008 4:55 PM GMT
    Guys, hold on a second. The Mormon church as an institution did not donate money to the campaign - that would violate its tax-free status. What it did was encourage it's members to donate their money. There is nothing illegal about this. It's not particularly nice or fair or Christian, but I don't think they did anything illegal.

    Oh, and meninlove, we (Unitarian Universalists) have been marrying "da gays" for years. This is the problem with separation of church and state and the marriage issue. Individual congregations are allowed to marry (religious marriage) anyone they want. Religions don't award the federal/state benefits of marriage, you still need the government to do that. This is why the anti-gay agenda isn't framing the issue as "the laws need to reflect our religion" instead they are framing the issue as "allowing gays to marry willl ruin our society."
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    Nov 06, 2008 4:58 PM GMT
    same to me, whether they gave, or encouraged...
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    Nov 06, 2008 5:09 PM GMT
    I can see it now "Donate money to this, or you'll be excommunicated!"
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    Nov 06, 2008 5:15 PM GMT
    The success of Proposition 8 due to the communication of ignorant assertions by Church leaders, reminds GLBT people the importance of coming out to one's family and friends as soon as possible. The best way to combat ignorance and irrational fear, is not through ads on TV, but by putting a human face to a poorly understood group of people.

    I am confident that my family members, including nieces and nephew, are less homophobic and more accepting because I was honest about my sexual orientation and my health status.
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    Nov 06, 2008 5:17 PM GMT
    I knew a few mormons on my H20-polo team in college and for awhile I thought they were pretty good friends. They were so cool while they thought there was a chance that I might join their church.......but when I made it clear I wasn't interested - those guys never spoke to me again. I found out their "friendship" really was related to recruiting - nothing more. When I told these guys I was not straight - their sheer hatred of me was palpable.
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    Nov 06, 2008 5:18 PM GMT
    Ok I actually attend mormon church and yesm, the church leadership did ask that all members do whatever they could to help proposition 8 pass. It just so happens that the mormon church is one of the wealthiest churches there are in the world and that marriage and the family happens to be one of the strongest beliefs in the faith. They are christians, and they do not hate gay people or want to take away their rights.

    Basically the mormon view of homosexuality is that in a premortal life all gay people chose to have this challenge to deal with in this life, hoping to overcome it and retain their "estate" in heaven. So they see homosexuality as something that should be cared for and fought through. The problem with this is that alot of members, just like any other anti-gay religion, believe that being gay is a sin. This comes into conflict with "love the sinner hate the sin" a practice that everyone, no matter WHAT group you belong to, has a problem with.

    Basically what I want to boil this down to is yes, mormons DID donate the most money to the campaign, but they are NOT the reason we lost the campaign overall. That, and please do not disrespect the mormon temple. You may not respect the people or what goes on in there, but that is a very sacred place to them, and we would expect the same respect for places that we want to keep safe fromt hem.
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    Nov 06, 2008 5:26 PM GMT
    wrerick saidActually the racial breakdown is very interesting, and I'm not saying that any specific racial group caused proposition 8 to pass, but African Americans are the outlier compared to the other races that came fairly close to either side of the 50% mark:

    White: 51 no, 49 yes; Asians: 51 no, 49 yes; Hispanics: 47 no, 53 yes; African Americans: 30 no, 70 yes; other: 49 no, 51 yes.

    For full details see the URL below.

    http://media.sacbee.com/smedia/2008/11/05/18/prop8.source.prod_affiliate.4.pdf

    The good news is that voters under 30 voted almost 2 -1 opposed to 8, and almost the exact opposite of older voters, so time and demographics are on our side -- and probably won't take all that long as the shift has been pretty significant in just the 8 yrs since 22.


    Wow that is pretty encouraging. Hispanics were right on the border-nothing major out there. Only African Americans at 70% -surprising-very surprising. I am just surprised at the dynamics.
    Ironic until recently from what I heard, the Mormons considered Blacks to be cursed or some such and wouldn't allolw Blacks to become priests or enter a temple.
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    Nov 06, 2008 5:27 PM GMT
    I donated time and money to stop this. I am devastated that it passed. I share the feelings of rage, frustration -- even, dare I say it, the desire for revenge.

    But expressions of rage and attempts at vengeance will not win us our rights back. It will only further cement the FEAR which allowed Prop 8 to pass in the first place. The path to victory depends upon showing the people that they have nothing to fear from us, and that our families do not threaten theirs - they SUPPORT them. That means leadership by example. Gay couples and families contributing to their communities in visible ways. And in more places.

    It won't happen overnight, but it will happen.
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    Nov 06, 2008 5:31 PM GMT
    Ok I actually attend mormon church and yesm, the church leadership did ask that all members do whatever they could to help proposition 8 pass. It just so happens that the mormon church is one of the wealthiest churches there are in the world and that marriage and the family happens to be one of the strongest beliefs in the faith. They are christians, and they do not hate gay people or want to take away their rights.

    Basically the mormon view of homosexuality is that in a premortal life all gay people chose to have this challenge to deal with in this life, hoping to overcome it and retain their "estate" in heaven. So they see homosexuality as something that should be cared for and fought through. The problem with this is that alot of members, just like any other anti-gay religion, believe that being gay is a sin. This comes into conflict with "love the sinner hate the sin" a practice that everyone, no matter WHAT group you belong to, has a problem with.

    Basically what I want to boil this down to is yes, mormons DID donate the most money to the campaign, but they are NOT the reason we lost the campaign overall. That, and please do not disrespect the mormon temple. You may not respect the people or what goes on in there, but that is a very sacred place to them, and we would expect the same respect for places that we want to keep safe fromt hem.


    This is the underlying problem: letting you beliefs in the supernatural or future 'life' influence what judgements you should make for OTHER people in this life. The mormons can do as they please, but you can't say they DON"T want to take away rights when they've just amply demonstrated that with supporting proposition 8. Not taking someone's rights away is not necessarily agreeing that gays should marry, but nonetheless allowing them to marry if the state deems it right -- opposing the state and the ruling of the state's supreme court is working to take away rights.

    I'm sorry are not gay families sacred? Shouldn't the mormons have respect for homosexuals and their families and their partners and children? I'm sorry but mormon churches are buildings the same as any other and not any more sacred than any other, and if hey want respect then they should be willing to show respect, and that means accepting and not interferring with people who don't share their same beliefs and values and letting them have those beliefs and be treated the same as everyone else under the law.
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    Nov 06, 2008 5:32 PM GMT
    chinosurfguy said Ok I actually attend mormon church and yesm, the church leadership did ask that all members do whatever they could to help proposition 8 pass.... They are christians, and they do not hate gay people or want to take away their rights....
    OK, this should generate a fair amount of feedback here, I can hear the keys clicking as I type this.

    First, chinosurfguy, I applaud you for having the guts to come on here and admit that you're Mormon and state your opinion.

    Correct me someone if I'm wrong here, but the Mormon church is NOT a Christian church and they are NOT Christians. You do believe that Jesus existed as a prophet however Christians believe Jesus Christ to be the one and only son of God, part of the triune God. My understanding is that your faith does NOT allow for this belief and your lack of seeing Jesus Christ as the Messiah, you are not considered Christians. As a practicing Christian, I recognize this and see it as a big difference between your faith and the Christian faith. As for hating gays, I suspect that they don't hate gays, however, taking away their rights? Oh yeah, they just proved that by asking their members to pump a ton of money into a proposition to do just that. If you don't think that is true than explain what you think prop 8 was placed onto the ballot for.
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    Nov 06, 2008 5:35 PM GMT
    It's a cult like mindfuck played out on a bunch of suckers to manipulate them into a frenzy. You would think the greater portion of free thinking citizens would have stood opposed to helping out any religious affiliation fighting for this prop considering the conservative christians history which includes it's involvement in killing innocent individuals in Salem randomly claiming people were fucking broom riding evil witch's.

    This institute is rich in segregation and discrimination fighting against civil rights. Many of their teachings include a very blatant sexist attitude towards the role of women in general.

    You would think most would be insulted that the church adopts a monopoly on the definition of marriage and decrees it as Gods gift to them specifically so please every one help them maintain that special gift even when you don't subscribe to that club.

    If there is one organization that knows how to fuck with someone and manipulate them it's the conservative christian organizations. They've made a mint off the name God. That tells them they are a success. They aren't going to go quietly into the night. They offer the unknown. An eternal life insurance policy if you jump on board.

    No one seems to challenge the fact that the same club sits on their asses watching the deterioration of that special gift between one man and one woman nor does anyone realize that since they don't do anything about that deterioration there must be some other underlying real reason they want to continue to segregate things. Why help them out? They are 50 shades of fucked up. Few live up to their own rules of glorious perfection and when they do fail instead of being accountable for their actions either brush it off, change the rules quickly or cover their asses by saying.. God has forgiven them so lets move on and love one another LOL. It's some of the most craziest bullshit but yet it's an empire. If there really is a God he/she or it is going to be so mother fucking pissed off at the church's misrepresentation I can hardly wait for the possibility of sitting in the front row on that alleged judgment day when they are all held accountable. They pimped God out. Potentially lied. Based it on fear and spent a life time judging others.

    Instead of teaching Mormons and any religious base a lesson I say we start being boldly honest and define all religions as sub cults and challenge people to start figuring out life using their own brains and stop asking another man how they should think and feel. You'd save yourself a lot of money and time.
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    Nov 06, 2008 5:37 PM GMT
    Thats the thing though, mormons don't feel the same way. Trying to live life with an eternal perspective is exactly the challenge of the church. This life is just a probationary state where the choices they make here effect how eternity is for them, so saying that their choices for OTHER people to them is a completely null argument. It is them that must fight for us because we have "given up" our own fight to gain exaltation in the post mortal world.

    And no, to mormons a gay family is not sacred. There is a church publication called Family: A Declaration on the Family. In it they expressly state that a family has a mother and a father.

    And as far as you stating that churches to them are just another building, they do not believe this at all. I would think that someone who is fighting for their own beliefs would understand and respect the beliefs of others. Just because they might be taking the first swing doesn't mean we have to follow through. Ever heard of taking the higher road? You should try it, it has worked great for me so far icon_razz.gif
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    Nov 06, 2008 5:38 PM GMT
    I have no problem with religions trying to give comfort to their congregation. I do have problems when they actively try and shape social policy through the introduction of referendums that try to overturn court decisions, as well as propaganda that spreads irrational hatred or fear of a particular group of people.

    It never ceases to amaze me when some Religions claim that they are being "attacked", when they are the ones who are on the offensive. If you do not want to be criticized then stop fucking with people's lives.
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    Nov 06, 2008 5:39 PM GMT
    Correct me someone if I'm wrong here, but the Mormon church is NOT a Christian church and they are NOT Christians. You do believe that Jesus existed as a prophet however Christians believe Jesus Christ to be the one and only son of God, part of the triune God. My understanding is that your faith does NOT allow for this belief and your lack of seeing Jesus Christ as the Messiah, you are not considered Christians. As a practicing Christian, I recognize this and see it as a big difference between your faith and the Christian faith. As for hating gays, I suspect that they don't hate gays, however, taking away their rights? Oh yeah, they just proved that by asking their members to pump a ton of money into a proposition to do just that. If you don't think that is true than explain what you think prop 8 was placed onto the ballot for.[/quote]

    you were completely misinformed, the first article of faith of the mormon church:

    We believe in God the eternal father and in HIS SON Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

    Mormon completely believe in the divine nature of Christ as God's son.
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    Nov 06, 2008 5:41 PM GMT
    chinosurfguy said ... the church leadership did ask that all members do whatever they could to help proposition 8 pass.

    They are christians, and they do not hate gay people or want to take away their rights.


    I don't know.

    Telling people to "do whatever they could to help proposition 8 pass" seems alot like... I don't know... wanting to take away our rights.
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    Nov 06, 2008 5:43 PM GMT
    Yeah but see they don't think of it as taking away a gay person's right. They see it as protecting a divine institution while at the same time trying to help those that are "in the wrong" come to a realization that they need to find a life centered around God rather than a life "lived in sin and lustful pursuit"
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    Nov 06, 2008 5:44 PM GMT
    It's also comforting to know that the majority of the voters in California have shown compassion in ensuring that the rights of chickens and other animals to live in spaces where they can spread their wings or stand on their own prior to being slaughtered and marketed have been protected. All this while viewing the love between their own brothers and sisters and the desire to establish relationships to care a lifetime for each other is to be denied based on the fear that the established Word of God, to love one another, show compassion and understanding and to live in peace, somehow applies to everything except a select group of people.

    I wonder how many of those supporters of 8, Mormons and Christians alike, wiped a tear from their eye thinking about those poor little chickens but didn't blink once at the thought of two human beings wanting nothing more than to live a life together as one here in our own community....a sad thought.
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    Nov 06, 2008 5:45 PM GMT


    hey joggerva,

    That's heady stuff! That Unitarian Universalists have been marrying gays for years is very cool. Up here in
    Canada a church marriage is required to have a marriage license. Virginia issues marriage licenses to gays? That's great! Are there any parishes in California? If so, then your church can spearhead a perfect legal challenge under freedom of religion!

    What do you think?

    -us
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    Nov 06, 2008 5:45 PM GMT
    And thats the problem I have with the mormon church. I did not come in here wanting to talk ALOT about the church, I just wanted people to show mutual respect and understand that MOST mormons aren;t going to change their views on same sex marriage.