Mormons need to be taught a lesson...

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    Nov 06, 2008 5:46 PM GMT
    chinosurfguy said Yeah but see they don't think of it as taking away a gay person's right. They see it as protecting a divine institution while at the same time trying to help those that are "in the wrong" come to a realization that they need to find a life centered around God rather than a life "lived in sin and lustful pursuit"

    Someone needs to remind them, then, of how they used to oppose interracial marriage and supported over-the-top compound-in-Texas-style polygamy.
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    Nov 06, 2008 5:47 PM GMT
    The mormon church hasn't supported same sex marriage since it was banned from the church in 1860. People seem to forget that the compounds that have been found are part of a (hard to believe I know) radical group that split from the church a hundred something years ago called RLDS or something like that.

    And yes they did oppose same sex marriage for a while, but that topic is where you come into religious doctrine, like HARD religious doctrine that I barely understand. I don't want to say anything because people are dangerously good at using words against each other here icon_razz.gif
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    Nov 06, 2008 6:04 PM GMT
    chinosurfguy said Ok I actually attend mormon church and yesm, the church leadership did ask that all members do whatever they could to help proposition 8 pass. It just so happens that the mormon church is one of the wealthiest churches there are in the world and that marriage and the family happens to be one of the strongest beliefs in the faith. They are christians, and they do not hate gay people or want to take away their rights.

    Basically the mormon view of homosexuality is that in a premortal life all gay people chose to have this challenge to deal with in this life, hoping to overcome it and retain their "estate" in heaven. So they see homosexuality as something that should be cared for and fought through. The problem with this is that alot of members, just like any other anti-gay religion, believe that being gay is a sin. This comes into conflict with "love the sinner hate the sin" a practice that everyone, no matter WHAT group you belong to, has a problem with.

    Basically what I want to boil this down to is yes, mormons DID donate the most money to the campaign, but they are NOT the reason we lost the campaign overall. That, and please do not disrespect the mormon temple. You may not respect the people or what goes on in there, but that is a very sacred place to them, and we would expect the same respect for places that we want to keep safe fromt hem.


    NIce try but I and many gay people not only have NO respect for the mormon religion, it's hate filled sheep followers or it's buildings but really fear and need to protect ourselves from such CRAP!

    BIG SHAME on you!
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    Nov 06, 2008 6:06 PM GMT
    chinosurfguy said you were completely misinformed, the first article of faith of the mormon church:

    We believe in God the eternal father and in HIS SON Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

    Mormon completely believe in the divine nature of Christ as God's son.
    I don't think so my friend. You can say that based on the wording of your doctrine but the reality is, that despite efforts of the Mormon Church to "look" Christian there are big differences in the theology of the Christian church and doctrine of the Mormon faith:

    1. The Mormon church believes God the father was at one time human and progressed to become God. The Christian church believes God is spirit and he is NOT man and has ALWAYS existed only (eternally) as God. All power, knowledge and presence.

    2. The Mormon church believes that the Son is elder brother procreated as a spirit child and later conceived physically through the father and the mother Mary. The Christian church believes that Jesus is the one and only, unique Son of God and is one with the Father and the Holy Spirit as the triune God. He has no siblings and is not of this world.

    3. The Mormon church believes that the father, son and holy ghost are 3 seperate gods. The Christian church, as mentioned above, believes they are one from God and with God, each of equal status, all of which are ONE Godhead.
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    Nov 06, 2008 6:16 PM GMT
    [quote][cite]TallGWMvballer said

    NIce try but I and many gay people not only have NO respect for the mormon religion, it's hate filled sheep followers or it's buildings but really fear and need to protect ourselves from such CRAP!

    BIG SHAME on you!
    [/quote]

    nice try but in the end its me protecting a group from attack and you not being able to get over the fact that people have a different opinion than you and acted on it. You feel they attacked you, they feel the same way. This world is full of different perspectives learn to agree to disagree icon_smile.gif
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    Nov 06, 2008 6:20 PM GMT
    eb925guy said
    chinosurfguy said you were completely misinformed, the first article of faith of the mormon church:

    We believe in God the eternal father and in HIS SON Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

    Mormon completely believe in the divine nature of Christ as God's son.
    I don't think so my friend. You can say that based on the wording of your doctrine but the reality is, that despite efforts of the Mormon Church to "look" Christian there are big differences in the theology of the Christian church and doctrine of the Mormon faith:

    1. The Mormon church believes God the father was at one time human and progressed to become God. The Christian church believes God is spirit and he is NOT man and has ALWAYS existed only (eternally) as God. All power, knowledge and presence.

    2. The Mormon church believes that the Son is elder brother procreated as a spirit child and later conceived physically through the father and the mother Mary. The Christian church believes that Jesus is the one and only, unique Son of God and is one with the Father and the Holy Spirit as the triune God. He has no siblings and is not of this world.

    3. The Mormon church believes that the father, son and holy ghost are 3 seperate gods. The Christian church, as mentioned above, believes they are one from God and with God, each of equal status, all of which are ONE Godhead.


    1. Completely false. Ever read the King James version of the bible? THATS the version the mormon church uses. Mormons NEVER believed God started as a man.

    2. Mormons do believe that Lucifer was the brother of Jesus, but if you REALLY want to get into christian doctrine, we are ALL brothers and sisters to him. Having the common heavenly father.

    3. There are churches other than mormon that believe the Godhead is three separate entities as well.

    Religions have different ideas on theology, is that the point of more than one religion? oh yeah... difference in beliefs icon_razz.gif
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    Nov 06, 2008 6:24 PM GMT
    And I am done, you guys feel free to say whatever you want about the church, its clear that nobody is going to change opinions here and I simply have better things to do than to argue over religion.




    POINT OF MY ORIGINAL POST: EVEN though these people are attack are rights, try to be the better person and keep it peaceful, respectful, and hopefully some can see our choice and respect it.
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    Nov 06, 2008 6:40 PM GMT
    I think we should blame it on Scientology as well since we're playing the blame game. TomKat was behind it all.
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    Nov 06, 2008 6:42 PM GMT
    chinosurfguy said
    nice try but in the end its me protecting a group from attack and you not being able to get over the fact that people have a different opinion than you and acted on it. You feel they attacked you, they feel the same way. This world is full of different perspectives learn to agree to disagree icon_smile.gif

    And they'll thank you for your efforts by smiling to your face and stabbing you in the back. Your intents are admirable; your charge is poorly chosen.

    This has gone beyond a difference of opinions and "agreeing to disagree", and our perceived attack on them doesn't hold a candle to their actual attack on us. When rights and dignity begin getting stripped away "in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit" because they couldn't agree to disagree, the gloves come off.
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    Nov 06, 2008 6:48 PM GMT
    The issue isn't learning to accept a disagreement. I have no problem with the LDS believing what they want. The issue is that they want to remove the rights of those who are not part of the church. This is not mere proselytizing, but rather the destruction/elimination of the 'unbeliever' (in the form of legal rights.) There is little distinction between this remove of rights and removal of life of those that don't agree with or are even part of one groups faith. The belief that you are 'doing good' in eliminating that which you don't agree with under the guise that it will affect you in a way that isn't real is both scary and dangerous.
    No amount of faith can justify saying that preventing two people who love each other from expressing that love will affect your soul, particularly when you don't know either of those two people. It is simply a reaction based on ignorance and fear. Justification of the fear and ignorance under the veil of faith is not an acceptable excuse.
    There is a slippery slope of rationalization towards a new 'final solution' with this kind of defense.

    I know what I believe and what I don't believe. I'm willing to discuss it and share it with anyone who wants to know. Regardless of the strength of my belief, however, I have no right to force it on anyone. I also have the right as a human being to protect myself.
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    Nov 06, 2008 6:51 PM GMT
    chinosurfguy said And I am done, you guys feel free to say whatever you want about the church, its clear that nobody is going to change opinions here and I simply have better things to do than to argue over religion.




    POINT OF MY ORIGINAL POST: EVEN though these people are attack are rights, try to be the better person and keep it peaceful, respectful, and hopefully some can see our choice and respect it.



    NO you do NOT deserve respect when your beliefs cause harm to others! How can you ask for respect when your group wants to take away our rights, treat us like 2nd class citizens etc? COME ON.... grow a set and stop listening to these HATE mongers you think are speaking for some mythical father figure in the sky or whatever THIER version is of a supreme being, adult imaginary friend. How about thinking for YOURSELF and if your conclusion is different from your church's then extricate yourself from them and exercise your OWN beliefs!
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    Nov 06, 2008 6:52 PM GMT
    chinosurfguy said
    eb925guy said
    chinosurfguy said

    1. Completely false. Ever read the King James version of the bible? THATS the version the mormon church uses. Mormons NEVER believed God started as a man.

    Doctrine and Covenants 130:22; "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!" from Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345-347; Gospel Principles, p. 9; Articles of Faith, p. 430; Mormon Doctrine, p. 321).

    2. Mormons do believe that Lucifer was the brother of Jesus, but if you REALLY want to get into christian doctrine, we are ALL brothers and sisters to him. Having the common heavenly father.

    We are all brothers and sisters in Christ, meaning that we, in fact, all are children of God but that does NOT mean that Christ had siblings!

    3. There are churches other than mormon that believe the Godhead is three separate entities as well.

    Yes, there are but we're talking about the mormon church and your reference to it being a Christian church. Christians believe in the trinity, your church does not. References from the bible include: Son: Mark 2:5-12; John 20:28; Philippians 2:10,11; Holy Spirit: Acts 5:3,4; 2 Corinthians 3:17,18; 13:14

    Religions have different ideas on theology, is that the point of more than one religion? oh yeah... difference in beliefs

    Yes, religions do have differing theologies, I don't dispute that. My only dispute was you calling the mormons Christians, that I dispute greatly.

    icon_razz.gif
  • MotorBrett

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    Nov 06, 2008 7:01 PM GMT
    chinosurfguy said Ok I actually attend mormon church and yesm, the church leadership did ask that all members do whatever they could to help proposition 8 pass. It just so happens that the mormon church is one of the wealthiest churches there are in the world and that marriage and the family happens to be one of the strongest beliefs in the faith. They are christians, and they do not hate gay people or want to take away their rights.

    Basically the mormon view of homosexuality is that in a premortal life all gay people chose to have this challenge to deal with in this life, hoping to overcome it and retain their "estate" in heaven. So they see homosexuality as something that should be cared for and fought through. The problem with this is that alot of members, just like any other anti-gay religion, believe that being gay is a sin. This comes into conflict with "love the sinner hate the sin" a practice that everyone, no matter WHAT group you belong to, has a problem with.

    Basically what I want to boil this down to is yes, mormons DID donate the most money to the campaign, but they are NOT the reason we lost the campaign overall. That, and please do not disrespect the mormon temple. You may not respect the people or what goes on in there, but that is a very sacred place to them, and we would expect the same respect for places that we want to keep safe fromt hem.


    I want the Morman Church to LOSE THEIR TAX EXEMPT STATUS to make an example of them. They were predominantly the financial influence, that led to the commercial blitz, shifting the polls in favor of Prop 8 in late September. We were in the clear with the high 50s% on our side before that.

    There is a clear separation of church and state in our country, and it has been eroding.

    NO LONGER WILL I IDLY STAND BY AND HAVE OUR CIVIL RIGHTS ERODED BY THE BELIEFS OF OTHERS.

    WE SHOULD DO EVERYTHING IN OUR POWER AGAINST THOSE THAT STAND IN OUR WAY TO FIGHT FOR OUR FREEDOM.

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    Nov 06, 2008 7:10 PM GMT
    All churches should be stripped of the tax exempt status. I can respect the spirit of the intention of this, but perhaps looking at some of them like the businesses they are might lead to a little bit of accountability. Who knew the mormon church had holdings in Pepsi?

    I understand people's passion regarding this issue. Everyone should be fired up, but the let's burn the god damned mormon witches at the stake mentality is a little much.

    It's nice to see a forum about something than matters instead of do you like guys that shave their pit hair? Put the passion to good use gents. If there's a way to hit things economically, unfortunately, money will do the talking.
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    Nov 06, 2008 7:10 PM GMT
    It's odd, I guess, but until the advent of the prop hate campaign, I had no idea that the mormons were so pervasive in California. Out here on the east coast, I don't think we have any. Anybody know of east coast mormons? Where I might find one of the rathole churches?
  • MotorBrett

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    Nov 06, 2008 7:21 PM GMT
    McGay saidIt's odd, I guess, but until the advent of the prop hate campaign, I had no idea that the mormons were so pervasive in California. Out here on the east coast, I don't think we have any. Anybody know of east coast mormons? Where I might find one of the rathole churches?


    They're not. They account for 2% of the population, yet accounted for 80% of the donations to Prop 8.

    "Californians Against Hate released figures Tuesday showing that $17.67 million was contributed by 59,000 Mormon families since August to groups like Yes on 8. Contributions in support of Prop. 8 total $22.88 million. Additionally, the group reports that Mormons have contributed $6.9 million to pass a a similar law, Proposition 102, in Arizona.

    The Latter-day Saints Church says it has approximately 770,000 members in California, accounting for about 2% of the state's population. Senior church elders broadcast a call to Mormons October 8 for increased volunteer efforts and donations for the marriage fight. The hour-long message went out to churches in Utah, Hawaii, and Idaho as well as California.

    Members of the Quorum of Twelve Apostles, the second-highest church governing body, explained their plan to pass the ballot initiative. They asked each California congregation to commit 30 volunteers to donate four hours a week to Proposition 8. They also urged young people to use technology -- such as social networks, text messaging, and blogging -- to spread the word."

    Source: http://www.advocate.com/news_detail_ektid64163.asp

    So please visit:

    http://www.mormonsstoleourrights.com/
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    Nov 06, 2008 7:25 PM GMT
    Well, if violence escalates towards mormons, I won't be surprised and I won't be sad. You reap what you sow.
  • MotorBrett

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    Nov 06, 2008 7:28 PM GMT
    McGay saidWell, if violence escalates towards mormons, I won't be surprised and I won't be sad. You reap what you sow.


    Right, I think we need to do some reverse discrimination and start Morman-bashing, lol!!

    (Just kidding, by the way. I am not advocating violence really!!)
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    Nov 06, 2008 7:54 PM GMT
    COLORED TEXT GOES HERE

    I think everyone should have the right to vote on the moral climate of the community.
  • MikePhilPerez

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    Nov 06, 2008 8:01 PM GMT
    robbieII saidCOLORED TEXT GOES HERE

    I think everyone should have the right to vote on the moral climate of the community.


    You see where it says "COLORED TEXT GOES HERE"
    Well that is where your text should be icon_biggrin.gif
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    Nov 06, 2008 8:05 PM GMT
    swimbikerun said
    I really think that us queers are to blame. As you read this: did you donate time or money?


    Yes, I did.

    MotorBrett: Thanks for the link to http://www.mormonsstoleourrights.com/. I signed the petition and took the additional actions they recommended.


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    Nov 06, 2008 8:37 PM GMT
    meninlove said

    hey joggerva,

    That's heady stuff! That Unitarian Universalists have been marrying gays for years is very cool. Up here in
    Canada a church marriage is required to have a marriage license. Virginia issues marriage licenses to gays? That's great! Are there any parishes in California? If so, then your church can spearhead a perfect legal challenge under freedom of religion!

    What do you think?

    -us


    Haha, sorry meninlove. I had a feeling I didn't articulate myself correctly. UU churches will perform gay marriages, which are recognized only by the people involved. These aren't legal marriages I was talking about, but religious marriages.
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    Nov 06, 2008 8:51 PM GMT
    rotabilis saidI donated time and money to stop this. I am devastated that it passed. I share the feelings of rage, frustration -- even, dare I say it, the desire for revenge.

    But expressions of rage and attempts at vengeance will not win us our rights back. It will only further cement the FEAR which allowed Prop 8 to pass in the first place. The path to victory depends upon showing the people that they have nothing to fear from us, and that our families do not threaten theirs - they SUPPORT them. That means leadership by example. Gay couples and families contributing to their communities in visible ways. And in more places.

    It won't happen overnight, but it will happen.


    Very Nicely Said..
  • irishkcguy

    Posts: 780

    Nov 06, 2008 8:54 PM GMT
    The Hollywood community should boycott Utah, starting with Park City: no skiing, no snowboarding, no Sundance Film Festival.....
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    Nov 06, 2008 8:56 PM GMT
    MotorBrett said


    http://www.mormonsstoleourrights.com/

    go check it out, sign up and pass it on...


    Thanks for posting this, I've signed it & forwarded it on to friends & family. I don't think it is unreasonable or 'vengeful'. What is unreasonable is a religious group infringing on others' rights, no matter how strong their belief system is. All of it is thinly veiled prejudice, masquerading as religious beliefs, as is the mormon doctrine itself, much like parts of the bible. It is/was based on intolerance. As Wanda Sykes said, "If you don't like gay marriage, don't marry someone of the same sex!!"