Mormons need to be taught a lesson...

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    Nov 06, 2008 8:58 PM GMT
    We're not going to convince others that we deserve equal marriage rights until we believe it ourselves, deep down. But there's still too much self-loathing remaining in our community for this to happen. Often this can leave us so self absorbed that we prioritize superficial short-term gratification over our longer-term well-being.

    So we don't organize or protest. We don't boycott hateful businesses. We don't go into difficult territory and try to change minds. We don't galvanize around a common voice. We still don't have our Martin Luther King.

    So we just wait for the lesbians to have another charity oil wrestling contest and thank them politely for their hard work, while we spend our Saturday nights hidden away numbing the old painful memories. Another cosmo/bump/blowjob please!

    We limit ourselves to being visible one time a year, and then we pour into the streets. But because we've been repressing our identity for the other 364 days, we make complete asses of ourselves on that one day. To straights, we are invisible all year, save for the one day when we become painfully blinding. Why not have a gay pride festival every Sunday? With that frequency of identity release, I guarantee we won't feel the need to shock people anymore. Or maybe every day is gay pride day? Mirror the intimacy straight couples show as though it was commonplace, and then it will be. Too afraid? Get a handgun license and support the 2nd amendment. Or just become a good tackler.

    How many times have you heard that until you respect yourself, no one else will?

    Look. You and your boyfriend are not an absurdity. So stop listening to the other voices that have been looping in your head for all these years (dad, childhood friends, the gym teacher, TV, etc., etc.) and start listening to your own voice. Then get out and fight for the happiness you deserve.

    (If any of you cannot relate to the above, congrats. Now go help someone who still relates. The election is over. Time to show some love.)
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    Nov 06, 2008 9:32 PM GMT
    MotorBrett saidthe only time i've seen gays stop traffic is when they take to long to cross at Santa Monica and Robertson!!


    Last night the gays stopped traffic as they held multiple protests which took to the streets. Traffic was halted as crowds spontaneously waltzed up San Vicente, Sunset Blvd, Crescent Heights, Santa Monica, Melrose, and up to Hollywood and Highland, where the pig LAPD assholes finally barracaded them to go back (and beat some senselessly).

    SurrealLife saidA liberal democratic presidential candidate handily wins a state (over 60% of the vote) but at the same time a conservative backlash against gay marriage is also approved. On the surface it does not make sense until you realize that people can be culturally conservative but still vote for a "liberal" candidate.


    Don't you mean conservative BLACKlash against gay marriage? lol

    Cities can be liberal and conservative at the same time. Boston and Seattle are both liberal in civil rights, but socially conservative and have a dull nightlife.
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    Nov 06, 2008 9:36 PM GMT
    McGay saidIt's odd, I guess, but until the advent of the prop hate campaign, I had no idea that the mormons were so pervasive in California. Out here on the east coast, I don't think we have any. Anybody know of east coast mormons? Where I might find one of the rathole churches?


    California has the most Mormons outside of Utah.
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    Nov 06, 2008 9:49 PM GMT
    Ducky44 saidDear Swim,

    Having been born and raise in Los Angeles it would have been remis of me not to do so, to answer your question yes I did $$$$$$ mostly as I nolonger live in California it would kind of difficult for me to donate my time.

    Why would you even ask me such a question? Did you you?icon_rolleyes.gif


    Chill out man, this was meant to be a third person reference (i.e., anyone who reads the post, not specifically just you)
    I donated neither time nor money. I had a surreal moment when a straight friend called me from a phone bank urging me to help out which I did not do.
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    Nov 06, 2008 10:28 PM GMT
    eb925 & chinsosmurf,

    Why are you getting into a religious argument over theology? Who gives a crap? If you haven't noticed-- both mainline Christian AND Mormon doctrines both teach that homosexuality is wrong.... and here we are, all members of a website for gays.....

    A theological argument belongs on other forums, if you ask me.

    As far as the Mormons go.... it's pretty messed up, what they did. I was raised Mormon and I got into an argument about this whole thing with my mom. She was trying to defend it, saying that if the proposition was not passed, gays would eventually want to get married within the church and they would try to sue the church if they did not allow it, once gay marriage was passed.

    I told her that she was being ridiculous and that I highly doubt any gay men are going to want to get married in a church that rejects their being and their relationships as sinful.

    Its very sad, and I never believed it until now...but my dad says that churches are all corporations... and it seems that he is right. Lobbying for what they want.
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    Nov 06, 2008 10:29 PM GMT
    About the Mormon Church. It was started by a fraudulent liar and adulterer by the name of Joseph Smith. He claimed that he saw night visions of various Biblical characters such as John the Baptist, the Apostle John and I think, the Angel Gabriel. These three told him of a stack of golden plates with "Reformed Egyptian" writing on them. In fact "Reformed Egyptian" had never existed and it had never been verified as a language by any archaeologist worth his salt.
    The whole story was taken from a manuscript of a novel, which was a fiction story meant to be read as fiction, nothing more.
    There is not a scrap of evidence that a group of early Jews had crossed the Atlantic to colonise America. On the contrary, most of Jewish history shows that the Israelis were never sea farers.
    Joseph Smith founded a money-spinning business disguised as religion (as did Charles T. Russell with the Watchtower Society) The reason why LDS were for Prop 8 was because their central theme was polygamy, as set out by Joseph Smith and this is still the issue today. Only the federal laws of the USA had put a stop to this practice.
    To get to the bottom of all this, the leaders of the LDS used their support for Prop 8 as a protective shield for their bank balance. Let us remember that if the church were to lose its members, each one required by church law to tithe their income, it will soon be out of business!
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    Nov 06, 2008 10:31 PM GMT
    ....remember Stonewall....1969
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    Nov 06, 2008 10:40 PM GMT
    dammit..I thought this thread was going to be about spanking hot mormon guys on their naked little behinds...

    bleh...icon_rolleyes.gif

    but whatever...if motorbrett is going to protest with his shirt off, I'M SO IN!!
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    Nov 06, 2008 10:40 PM GMT
    chinosurfguy said Ok I actually attend mormon church and yesm, the church leadership did ask that all members do whatever they could to help proposition 8 pass.......

    .....They are christians, and they do not hate gay people or want to take away their rights.

    Basically what I want to boil this down to is yes, mormons DID donate the most money to the campaign, but they are NOT the reason we lost the campaign overall. That, and please do not disrespect the mormon temple. You may not respect the people or what goes on in there, but that is a very sacred place to them, and we would expect the same respect for places that we want to keep safe fromt hem.


    I agree, we shouldnt disrespect their places of worship either.... we need to be the 'bigger' person. Going there and demonstrating will only make gays look militant and angry against a bunch of 'God-Fearing-Folk' Not a good PR campaign.

    ...however, I dont necessarily agree with anything else you said. I think Mormons are taught to "love the sinner, hate the sin"... but thats basically impossible to do. At the end of the day, the church is black and white, with us or against us. There is no shade of grey.

    I think that the church clearly teaches that homosexuality is wrong, and that gays dont deserve to be allowed to get married because in the eyes of the church, marriage is for one man and one woman. Clearly they are looking down on us from their alter of judgment and disdain. Ask a member what they think about gays and there will be a large mix of reactions.... "i think its disgusting" to "I feel bad for them..." but never, "I think they should be allowed to live how they want..."

    Also, no offense... you should think about where you want to go with your life. You are defending the Mormon church, and attending as well- but you are here on RJ... presumably looking for BFs/ guys to meet and embracing the gay life to some extent. I know what its like to be stuck between the mormon world and the gay world. Being in between is miserable... and its lying to yourself and others, which only eats away at you further.

    Think about who you are, and who you want to become. I've been there. Message me if you want to talk about gay-mormon issues......
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    Nov 06, 2008 10:43 PM GMT
    ZbmwM5 saidShe was trying to defend it, saying that if the proposition was not passed, gays would eventually want to get married within the church and they would try to sue the church if they did not allow it, once gay marriage was passed.

    I'd say this was unfounded, but I know some dumb queens would try it.

    Reassure her that the whole separation of church and state thing goes BOTH ways. Mormons (or any religious group) have no right to try to make their theology law. By that same token, the laws are not allowed to force churches to change their beliefs and practices, so any gays that would try to sue the church wouldn't stand a chance of winning the case, provided they even found a lawyer dumb enough to try to take it in the first place.
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    Nov 06, 2008 10:53 PM GMT
    We should realize also that the proposition won by approx. 550,000 votes! That's quite a lot of votes. Even if LA County, San Diego County, San Luis Obispo and nearly every other county in California (that voted for Obama) had flipped and voted the other way, it would have passed by several hundred thousand votes.
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    Nov 06, 2008 11:40 PM GMT
    Note that this prop, like the one in FL, was carefully written to say only 'marriage'. There is majority support for legal partnership, etc. It's the m word that gets the vote. The props' supporters researched beforehand and knew that a broader position - say, including the words, "or anything like marriage" - would fail.

    It's not the "danger" of letting people vote, of course, that screws things up. It's that whole "system" of ruling by proposition that has gone nuts in CA for quite a while.
  • Barricade

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    Nov 06, 2008 11:42 PM GMT
    If I came to one of these rally's to protest too, would I be attacked? Alot anti black sentiment going around on RJ. icon_eek.gif
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    Nov 06, 2008 11:45 PM GMT
    Barricade saidIf I came to one of these rally's to protest too, would I be attacked? Alot anti black sentiment going around on RJ. icon_eek.gif

    Ummm, I doubt it! Are you from Kentucky or something?
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    Nov 06, 2008 11:52 PM GMT
    Fuck the mormans. They should all go back to utah and climb in a hole. I think all religions need to back the fuck up and worry about keeping there preachers from molesting little boys than fucking up our rights.
  • MotorBrett

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    Nov 07, 2008 2:53 AM GMT
    Jefferey saidFuck the mormans. They should all go back to utah and climb in a hole. I think all religions need to back the fuck up and worry about keeping there preachers from molesting little boys than fucking up our rights.


    AGREED!!!

    To Jake Bensen:

    I love you buddy!! icon_smile.gif
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    Nov 07, 2008 2:58 AM GMT
    MotorBrett said
    Jefferey saidFuck the mormans. They should all go back to utah and climb in a hole. I think all religions need to back the fuck up and worry about keeping there preachers from molesting little boys than fucking up our rights.


    AGREED!!!

    To Jake Bensen:

    I love you buddy!! icon_smile.gif

    Right back atcha buddyicon_wink.gif
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    Nov 07, 2008 3:08 AM GMT
    ZbmwM5 said

    I think that the church clearly teaches that homosexuality is wrong, and that gays dont deserve to be allowed to get married because in the eyes of the church, marriage is for one man and one woman. Clearly they are looking down on us from their alter of judgment and disdain. Ask a member what they think about gays and there will be a large mix of reactions.... "i think its disgusting" to "I feel bad for them..." but never, "I think they should be allowed to live how they want..."

    (emphasis mine)

    Just to be clear, though, let's not forget that the Mormon Church promoted polygamy (or more accurately, polygyny) until it was forced to cease the practice or forego statehood for Utah. And you still have the FLDS sects in Arizona and West Texas who still practice polygamy. Therefore, I wouldn't necessarily consider the LDS church to be without its own moral failings WRT the whole marriage debate.
  • MotorBrett

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    Nov 07, 2008 3:09 AM GMT
    Btw, I really do feel that this is a rational and tempered response to Prop 8 that shows we mean business in the separation of church as state.

    No more letting shit like this go!!
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    Nov 07, 2008 3:11 AM GMT
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    Nov 07, 2008 4:39 AM GMT
    Loved every minute of tonight's protest. It was peaceful and very appropriate given that Mormons (only 2% of CA's population) gave more than 70% of the funding that put all of Prop 8's advertising on the airwaves. Despite the inconvenience to most drivers on the streets, so many of them honked and waved in support of our presence on the streets.
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    Nov 07, 2008 5:30 AM GMT
    I just donated to the Invalidate Prop 8 campaign, which was mentioned in the news clip, above. I encourage you to do the same. When you donate, Invalidate Prop 8 will send a post card/petition to LDS President Tom Monson, which reads:

    Dear President Monson:

    A donation has been made in your name by ***** to “invalidateprop8.org” to overturn California's Proposition 8 and restore fundamental civil rights to all citizens of California. The money will be donated to legal organizations fighting the case and to support grass-roots activities in support of full marriage equality. Although we decry the reprehensible role the Church of Latter Day Saints leadership played in denying all Californians equal rights under the law, we are pleased a donation has been made on your behalf in the effort to overturn the discrimination your church members helped enshrine in the California Constitution. Given that throughout its history the Mormon Church has been subjected to bigotry, we hope you appreciate the donation in your name to fight religious bigotry here in California.

    http://invalidateprop8.org/
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    Nov 07, 2008 5:31 AM GMT
    You know, out of any religious sect Mormons have been persecuted the most. I am sure they had plenty of input....and why not? They obviously feel threatened for a reason. In any event, it was not the Mormon faith who single handily supported the proposition. There are huge Christian right group's and Evangelical Baptist groups and many other Catholic groups who supported this vote against gay marriage.

    Here, in Arizona, I did not see one Mormon church display any banners against the issue (and we have them on every corrner). I did see MANY on other churches and they are to numerous to name. So why not take your B_Fing party to all right wing faiths????

    One more side note. It was Jerry Brown who wrote this prop and I think he worded it to FAIL. I would talk to him about it first.....I think he wanted it to fail so it could go to the Supreme Court!
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    Nov 07, 2008 5:40 AM GMT
    Azstreaker saidYou know, out of any religious sect Mormons have been persecuted the most. I am sure they had plenty of input....and why not? They obviously feel threatened for a reason. In any event, it was not the Mormon faith who single handily supported the proposition. There are huge Christian right group's and Evangelical Baptist groups and many other Catholic groups who supported this vote against gay marriage.

    Here, in Arizona, I did not see one Mormon church display any banners against the issue (and we have them on every corrner). I did see MANY on other churches and they are to numerous to name. So why not take your B_Fing party to all right wing faiths????

    One more side note. It was Jerry Brown who wrote this prop and I think he worded it to FAIL. I would talk to him about it first.....I think he wanted it to fail so it could go to the Supreme Court!


    LDS members are estimated to have contributed 70% of the Yes on 8 funding. True, Focus on the Family, the Knights of Columbus, and other evangelical and Catholic organizations played a role, but it was clearly the Mormons who took the lead.

    Edit: BTW, CNN's Jeffrey Toobin tonight made the comment that overturning this proposition is an extreme long shot. The theory is that this issue breaks along a generational divide. He suggests that, in five or so years, gay rights activists can put their own proposition on the ballot to overturn Prop 8. By then, the generational divide may break in favor of the younger set. Not exactly what I wanted to hear, but he makes a good point.
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    Nov 07, 2008 5:49 AM GMT
    McGay saidI wish I was in CA! My heart is there.
    Did you leave it in San Francisco? icon_lol.gif