California black voters: how ironic

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    Nov 06, 2008 11:53 PM GMT
    "Actually, I don't doubt part of this due to the fact that the gay scene is very white dominant. Too bad the gays weren't able to reach out to the black voters."

    You can flip that logic and note that generally, black gay men have been more likely to be on the DL or closeted in their own communities. But i'd ask the african-americans here to confirm or deny that.

    I've read and heard all kinds of comments from blacks about the greeting black gay men get at home. For one thing, with the number of absentee dads in the african-american community, and the high rate of incarceration among poor blacks, there is a lot of vocal "regret" when educated, employed, "domesticated (!)" men are also not available to be fathers and husbands.

    Maybe more important: most churches in the US are officially against gay marriage (many go further). Black and hispanic voters are likely to be churchgoers, according to voter demographics, and churchgoers were reminded over and over to vote for prop 8.

    AND a huge number of the yes on b voters are not against gay domestic partnership - but they are convinced that the m word is sacred.

    I truly welcome any black men here to fill in the blanks and/or correct my misconceptions.
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    Nov 06, 2008 11:53 PM GMT
    I'd also like to remind everyone that despite the black community having LBGT issues, blacks in congress have been overwhelming supportive of gay rights and that the presidential candidate/elect with the most extensive and blatant pro-gay record is the first and only black president.
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    Nov 06, 2008 11:55 PM GMT
    I think the black people just voted for obama for the color of his skin. I think they had no clue what he can do. He believes in change and in rights for every one he was on our side for prop 8. They voted for him and then turned around and voted against what he wanted.
  • coolarmydude

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    Nov 06, 2008 11:56 PM GMT
    Barricade said, "What is the last rap album you listened to? People aren't giving credit to blacks as thinking individuals too, not everyone listens to rap or worries about "street cred". I kinda see your point. kinda."


    I wasn't saying all rap was like that. I said there has been a growing trend. I also think that the overpopulation of prisons and the increase in minorities in prison populations are creating this trend as there seems, at least to them, that there is this kill-or-be-killed mentality that permeates through the prison walls when they get out.

    Also, let's not be naiive.
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    Nov 06, 2008 11:59 PM GMT
    Jefferey saidI think the black people just voted for obama for the color of his skin. I think they had no clue what he can do. He believes in change and in rights for every one he was on our side for prop 8. They voted for him and then turned around and voted against what he wanted.


    Or perhaps black people aren't such drones that they believe whatever Obama believes. icon_rolleyes.gif

    All in all, blacks as a community have very little to do with anti-gay legislation despite being being predominately anti-gay marriage. Nov 4 was just a fluke because they were moblized to vote for the first black president.

    I forgot what study came up with these results but sometime ago a study found that black people compared to white people were more in favor of gay civil rights and the reverse is true from gay marriage.
  • coolarmydude

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    Nov 07, 2008 12:02 AM GMT
    If blacks voted for Obama because he is black above all else, then what were the whites thinking about Bush or McCain for that matter?
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    Nov 07, 2008 12:05 AM GMT
    coolHUSSEINdude saidIf blacks voted for Obama because he is black above all else, then what were the whites thinking about Bush or McCain for that matter?

    They were'nt thats why this time around we made sure that did not happen again. Any way we got screwed!!!
  • coolarmydude

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    Nov 07, 2008 12:06 AM GMT
    http://www.shoutmouth.com/index.php/news/Ja_Rule_Defends_Rap_Lyrics,_Disses_Homosexuals
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    Nov 07, 2008 12:08 AM GMT
    CitizenSol said
    Jefferey saidI think the black people just voted for obama for the color of his skin. I think they had no clue what he can do. He believes in change and in rights for every one he was on our side for prop 8. They voted for him and then turned around and voted against what he wanted.


    Or perhaps black people aren't such drones that they believe whatever Obama believes. icon_rolleyes.gif

    All in all, blacks as a community have very little to do with anti-gay legislation despite being being predominately anti-gay marriage. Nov 4 was just a fluke because they were moblized to vote for the first black president.

    I forgot what study came up with these results but sometime ago a study found that black people compared to white people were more in favor of gay civil rights and the reverse is true from gay marriage.

    You know what I thought the same thing. But when I seen the percentage I was in shock and was confussed I think they have our back. So you tell me what happened. Why?
  • coolarmydude

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    Nov 07, 2008 12:10 AM GMT
    From keithboykin.com (http://www.keithboykin.com/arch/2001/11/05/hip_hop_and_hom)


    "Aided by the hyper masculinity of hip hop culture, black homosexual identity in the nineties evolved away from house music and other gay-identified representations of self and instead created the the 'homothug' and the 'downlow'."

    And another outstanding and even foresightful comment:

    "Ironically, even as black men become more comfortable with their homosexuality and bisexuality, black gay political activists are becoming increasingly irrelevant to their lives. Thus, those who are connected to the political arena will need to make an even greater effort to reach those in the social arena with a non-patronizing and non-condescending approach."


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    Nov 07, 2008 12:19 AM GMT
    Jefferey said
    CitizenSol said
    Jefferey saidI think the black people just voted for obama for the color of his skin. I think they had no clue what he can do. He believes in change and in rights for every one he was on our side for prop 8. They voted for him and then turned around and voted against what he wanted.


    Or perhaps black people aren't such drones that they believe whatever Obama believes. icon_rolleyes.gif

    All in all, blacks as a community have very little to do with anti-gay legislation despite being being predominately anti-gay marriage. Nov 4 was just a fluke because they were moblized to vote for the first black president.

    I forgot what study came up with these results but sometime ago a study found that black people compared to white people were more in favor of gay civil rights and the reverse is true from gay marriage.

    You know what I thought the same thing. But when I seen the percentage I was in shock and was confussed I think they have our back. So you tell me what happened. Why?


    What happened was that it wasn't what people normal think is a civil rights issue. Civil rights issues to most people, especially most black people, has to do with discrimination when it comes to jobs, hospital visits, being treated equally by the state, not marriage.

    To most people, especially most black people, gay marriage is on par to interspecies marriage. Would you support incestual marriage or interspecies marriage or polygamy marriage?

    We both know they aren't on par to gay marriage but to them it is. That, plus the image they have of homosexuals (a class of sexually deviant white elitists) , religious afiliation, and typical macho bullshit all accumulates to this voting trend.

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    Nov 07, 2008 12:20 AM GMT
    coolHUSSEINdude saidhttp://www.shoutmouth.com/index.php/news/Ja_Rule_Defends_Rap_Lyrics,_Disses_Homosexuals



    http://community.livejournal.com/ohnotheydidnt/15935177.html

    And not just Lil Romeo but what about Pharrell, Kanye West, Dave Chappelle, and Chris Rock coming out repeatedly against homophobia?
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    Nov 07, 2008 12:24 AM GMT
    CitizenSol said
    Jefferey said
    CitizenSol said
    Jefferey saidI think the black people just voted for obama for the color of his skin. I think they had no clue what he can do. He believes in change and in rights for every one he was on our side for prop 8. They voted for him and then turned around and voted against what he wanted.


    Or perhaps black people aren't such drones that they believe whatever Obama believes. icon_rolleyes.gif

    All in all, blacks as a community have very little to do with anti-gay legislation despite being being predominately anti-gay marriage. Nov 4 was just a fluke because they were moblized to vote for the first black president.

    I forgot what study came up with these results but sometime ago a study found that black people compared to white people were more in favor of gay civil rights and the reverse is true from gay marriage.

    You know what I thought the same thing. But when I seen the percentage I was in shock and was confussed I think they have our back. So you tell me what happened. Why?


    What happened was that it wasn't what people normal think is a civil rights issue. Civil rights issues to most people, especially most black people, has to do with discrimination when it comes to jobs, hospital visits, being treated equally by the state, not marriage.

    To most people, especially most black people, gay marriage is on par to interspecies marriage. Would you support incestual marriage or interspecies marriage or polygamy marriage?

    We both know they aren't on par to gay marriage but to them it is. That, plus the image they have of homosexuals (a class of sexually deviant white elitists) , religious afiliation, and typical macho bullshit all accumulates to this voting trend.


    WOW! You put it like that I feel horrible about how uneducated they are. Mabey they should have stayed home on Nov 4th if thats they way they view homosexuals.
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    Nov 07, 2008 12:28 AM GMT
    Jefferey said
    CitizenSol said
    Jefferey said
    CitizenSol said
    Jefferey saidI think the black people just voted for obama for the color of his skin. I think they had no clue what he can do. He believes in change and in rights for every one he was on our side for prop 8. They voted for him and then turned around and voted against what he wanted.


    Or perhaps black people aren't such drones that they believe whatever Obama believes. icon_rolleyes.gif

    All in all, blacks as a community have very little to do with anti-gay legislation despite being being predominately anti-gay marriage. Nov 4 was just a fluke because they were moblized to vote for the first black president.

    I forgot what study came up with these results but sometime ago a study found that black people compared to white people were more in favor of gay civil rights and the reverse is true from gay marriage.

    You know what I thought the same thing. But when I seen the percentage I was in shock and was confussed I think they have our back. So you tell me what happened. Why?


    What happened was that it wasn't what people normal think is a civil rights issue. Civil rights issues to most people, especially most black people, has to do with discrimination when it comes to jobs, hospital visits, being treated equally by the state, not marriage.

    To most people, especially most black people, gay marriage is on par to interspecies marriage. Would you support incestual marriage or interspecies marriage or polygamy marriage?

    We both know they aren't on par to gay marriage but to them it is. That, plus the image they have of homosexuals (a class of sexually deviant white elitists) , religious afiliation, and typical macho bullshit all accumulates to this voting trend.


    WOW! You put it like that I feel horrible about how uneducated they are. Mabey they should have stayed home on Nov 4th if thats they way they view homosexuals.


    Why don't you show the same rancor for the whites who not only initiated the prop but in more numbers than both latino and black voters, passed the legislation?
  • coolarmydude

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    Nov 07, 2008 12:32 AM GMT
    CitizenSol said, "http://community.livejournal.com/ohnotheydidnt/15935177.html

    "And not just Lil Romeo but what about Pharrell, Kanye West, Dave Chappelle, and Chris Rock coming out repeatedly against homophobia?"


    Okay. Think of the whole issue. First, we're talking about California. Second, not all blacks are homophobic or support Prop 8. We're talking about the largest demographic of Prop 8 supporters were black men. It doesn't say all blacks or all black men. I'm proposing an explanation to this support of Prop 8 from black men could be found in popular culture. California... Home of the bloods and the crips and now, several new broods. I am making a plausible explanation.

    Do you have an explanation to propose?
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    Nov 07, 2008 12:33 AM GMT
    Also keep in mind that traditionally ethnic "minorities" are very family unified and believe that family is the strongest part of themselves and anyone else, myself being of Mexican and Black upbringing, I can understand/relate to why we may have been the cause of why Prop 8 has passed (so far). In the Spanish speaking community so much is placed on the men of the family even from a young child, especially if your family is 1st generation and/or still strongly tied to the culture, the same emphasis is placed on the males in the Black community. So it's not TOTALLY a surprise that we were a large percentage of voters that supported it. It comes down to culture and what their cultural beliefs are.
    Growing up I can share with you that I was never viewed as your typical young man from a Mexican-Black home, however my parents were very adamant that they showed us more, exposed us to more and what not. Anyways, all I'm wanting to say although we have experienced the "oppression" of segregation and what not, we still have our cultural beliefs.


    BTW, I voted NO on Prop 8!!!
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    Nov 07, 2008 12:37 AM GMT
    http://vote.sos.ca.gov/Returns/props/map190000000008.htm

    Take off the tin foil hat. I know you're pissed and I'm looking to see what the numbers are, but jakebenson, I don't think this is the first time you've blamed black people for the ills of the gay community.

    Remember, Californian black people weren't the only ones voting and I doubt, until shown otherwise, that 70% of the yes votes were from black people. Perhaps 70% of the people that are black that voted, voted for the measure. Yes it's sad, but that means that the Yes on 8 folks did a bang up job scaring certain people into demonizing gays and gay marriage.

    Go out and engage these people and let them know that you're not out to eat there first borns or force their churches to perform same-sex unions. In case you didn't know, not all black people were for Barack Obama at the beginning because they 1) didn't think he could win, 2) thought he might get killed, 3) didn't think he was militant (black) enough, 4) thought he should have been more upfront about his being a black candidate, 5) he wasn't Hillary Clinton.... It wasn't until later that many that voted for him after paying attention.

    Yes, some voted because of the color of his skin, but not all.

    Now instead of preaching to the choir, get out and start talking to people. I've trusted that my aunt voted against the measure, but I haven't talked to her about it, so I'm going to find out and educate her if she or her friends were dumb enough to fall for the Yes on 8 hype.
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    Nov 07, 2008 12:39 AM GMT
    coolHUSSEINdude saidCitizenSol said, "http://community.livejournal.com/ohnotheydidnt/15935177.html

    "And not just Lil Romeo but what about Pharrell, Kanye West, Dave Chappelle, and Chris Rock coming out repeatedly against homophobia?"


    Okay. Think of the whole issue. First, we're talking about California. Second, not all blacks are homophobic or support Prop 8. We're talking about the largest demographic of Prop 8 supporters were black men. It doesn't say all blacks or all black men. I'm proposing an explanation to this support of Prop 8 from black men could be found in popular culture. California... Home of the bloods and the crips and now, several new broods. I am making a plausible explanation.

    Do you have an explanation to propose?


    I don't wholly disagree with you on the cultural issue but the majority of voters were white and the black percentage of prop 8 voters is only 6%. I'm simply saying there's no way the black vote is responsible for the passage of prop 8.

    79% of the voters were white. I welcome conversation on homophobia in the black community but I'd like to straighten out some facts and erroneous assumptions before we do it.
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    Nov 07, 2008 12:39 AM GMT
    I dont know where you have been. But we have been fighting them for along time. Thats why alot of us our confussed because we never thought that this would be the turn out. I am not saying it is because of your race we lost. I am just confussed on why a race who fought so hard for there own rights would go and vote against some one elses I just dont fucking understand. I was so proud the night obama got elected I was so excited for our nation and for the black communitiy. It shows how far they came from having no rights, to now running a country. Then I woke up to find out out 8 did not pass and i was confussed then later on they showed race percentage and to see black voters at 75%. I was in shock. I thought thats not right why would they do that.
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    Nov 07, 2008 12:40 AM GMT
    The black churches are almost invariably very homophobic. It seems like such a dichotomy that they are very strong on social justice issues except when it comes to fair treatment of gay people. On that issue they're just as vitriolic as Focus on the Family.
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    Nov 07, 2008 12:46 AM GMT
    It is a shame why black voters voted the way they did. All i know for me...i grew up knowing that homosexuality is wrong. Thats why it is so hard for me to come out to my family. Things will change. With time. We just have to keep fighting.
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    Nov 07, 2008 12:47 AM GMT
    Jefferey saidI dont know where you have been. But we have been fighting them for along time. Thats why alot of us our confussed because we never thought that this would be the turn out. I am not saying it is because of your race we lost. I am just confussed on why a race who fought so hard for there own rights would go and vote against some one elses I just dont fucking understand. I was so proud the night obama got elected I was so excited for our nation and for the black communitiy. It shows how far they came from having no rights, to now running a country. Then I woke up to find out out 8 did not pass and i was confussed then later on they showed race percentage and to see black voters at 75%. I was in shock. I thought thats not right why would they do that.


    Jeff. I can only point to my past posts on this issue as well as my posts on the Remembering Bayard Rustin thread. Take it in. Mentally process it.

    Remember that Mormons were heavily persecuted in its conception too and grew to become extremely racists and after the civil rights era, are now proactively focusing on gay rights.
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    Nov 07, 2008 12:49 AM GMT
    What I'm most angry about in regard to the African American vote is that we the gay community let that vote slip right away from us out of complete stupidity. It's our fault. Not those within the AA community who went with their traditional teachings and upbringing.

    We had all the resources and time to reach out knowing pro 8 would try and manipulate that specific vote and thats exactly what they did. Pro 8 saw an open door knowing how the AA community feels about homosexuality and they jumped all over it sending out those damn flyers suggesting Obama supported prop 8. That was the clearest sign to us that we needed to quickly go into that community to debunk that shit and talk openly about what they would be doing if they willingly handed over a vote of support for this fucked up prop. Instead, we half heartedly from a distance tried to explain Obama was against prop 8 and called the haters a bunch of liars and did nothing else.

    We had a golden opportunity to challenge the AA community not to hand over any support to a group of individuals that historically fought to deny them their rights so be very careful in working with them. Some within those religious groups still believe the AA community should be sitting in the back of that bus seen but not heard. We could have inspired them not to be their suckers now and have enough self respect not to let them manipulate them like this. If anyone truly has a personal issue with two men or two woman legally getting married then feel free to ask any questions.

    We needed to firmly establish with the AA community this is not only a fight to give every hard working tax paying citizen their equal rights but it is also a fight against all forms of discrimination. It's an incredible opportunity to tell these self righteous organizations neck deep in a history of bigotry, discrimination and hatred to go back to hell where they came from.

    We blew it with the African American vote. They didn't owe us a damn thing. It was up to us to be logical and respectful enough in looking at each target vote and construct a dialogue to get that vote. Pro 8 clearly saw their chance to manipulate that vote and they went for it. We sat back based on assumption that they'd naturally vote with us. That infuriates me because we came so close yet we forgot one group.

    The sobering lesson is that every thing gay african american men have been telling us about the gay community is true. We do exclude them to such a degree we are insulting enough to assume we can guess how they would vote on this issue. We're idiots.

    We are going to win this thing eventually and the next time around we are going to be much more vigilant with these target groups and do a hell of a lot more foot work in those areas.

    The AA community brought to the table over 700,000 votes. Yes it's heartbreaking we only got 200,000 of those votes knowing close to 500,000 willingly voted along with other groups that carry the stigma of a lot of well known discrimination specifically targeting that same community. Thats even more devastating.

  • coolarmydude

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    Nov 07, 2008 12:51 AM GMT
    CitizenSol said, "I don't wholly disagree with you on the cultural issue but the majority of voters were white and the black percentage of prop 8 voters is only 6%. I'm simply saying there's no way the black vote is responsible for the passage of prop 8.

    79% of the voters were white. I welcome conversation on homophobia in the black community but I'd like to straighten out some facts and erroneous assumptions before we do it."


    http://www.ocregister.com/articles/voters-supported-black-2218703-latino-proposition

    Read this article. I'm not saying the majority of supporters were black. What the article is saying is that there is a correlation between the increase in black and latino voters who came out in support of obama and the slight difference that made Prop 8 pass could be attributed to that support. 70% of black voters supported Prop 8. That is a huge significance as we expected the usual white mormons to push the issue.

    Do you think that these white religious zealots were voting for Obama? That is the sharp contrast that isolates the black vote into being the factor that made the difference in passing Prop 8.
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    Nov 07, 2008 12:55 AM GMT
    CitizenSol saidOnce we start diversifying our image, the more the black community will think the gay community is more than a bunch of white elitists with deviant tendencies.


    I agree in that I think the gay community is white dominant and omits minorities. However, I think diversifying our image is a GOOD thing. I've heard of Latino and Black pride and that's good that those prides exist. It shows the Latino and Black crowds that THEIR community is ALSO gay. It makes the double minority status more visible.