"Hate the sin not the sinner".....

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    Sep 12, 2007 5:04 PM GMT
    To me it basically means I love you because god wants me to. But you're still going to hell.
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    Sep 12, 2007 5:10 PM GMT
    "Hate the sin not the sinner" is a valid, useful, and socially appropriate concept. It reinforces the idea that it is actions and behaviors that are to be avoided and punished, not individuals (for who/what they are) or groups of people. That is the very foundation upon which Western society is built. A fair, impartial economic and legal justice system through which a certain code of conduct is expected, and people are granted equal opportunity regardless of their age, status, class affiliation, religion, etc...

    Christian ideology, whether it is labeled as such, continues to be the basic fundamental principles that guide public policy. We in the Western world enjoy the freedoms we do today because Christians have built societies that foster respect, cooperation, dignity, and tolerance. Christians have devoted more time, energy, money, and love to their friends, neighbors (and enemies) than any other group of people in the history of human civilization.

    Christian teachings, slogans, and philosophy continue to be the building blocks from which all things in the West come. I support the slogan, the ideas behind it, and encourage others to do the same. It is for our own benefit.
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    Sep 12, 2007 5:19 PM GMT
    twisterguy said: "...Christians have devoted more time, energy, money, and love to their friends, neighbors (and enemies) than any other group of people in the history of human civilization..."

    Spoken like a person in a Christian-centric culture. Since this is unsupported opinion (meaning, show me the money, not mere personal interpretation of history)! But even if we accept that....then...

    I might say that Christians have devoted as much or more time, energy, money and hate to demonize those who do not "believe", suppression of "enemies", shackling those whose behavior or beliefs don't happen to be on the current "A" lists of acceptable than any other group of people in the history of human civilization.

    However, I would never use a hyperbolic term like "...in the history of human civilization..." since no one can know that.
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    Sep 12, 2007 5:24 PM GMT
    I don't think anyone has mentioned this yet, but that phrase doesn't ever show up in the bible. In fact, the only verse that really comes somewhat close to that is John 4:20:

    "If anyone says, 'I love God,' yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen."

    the phrase was coined by Mahatma Ghandi (not Christian), in one of his speeches... I guess fundamentalists liked it so much that they adopted it.

    Anyway, there is nothing biblical about the phrase...
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    Sep 12, 2007 5:27 PM GMT
    Twisterguy20-

    Someone said 'A fifth grade view of religion, and the world, is fine; when you are in 5th grade'

    I would add that it is not acceptable if your views stay that way.

    Your views and statements are extremely biased and culture-centric.

    R

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    Sep 12, 2007 5:33 PM GMT
    I don't think it's a bad phrase if you're willing to embrace the concept of not hating anyone. The thing is most people aren't. That includes people on this site as well. Humans are good at hating in my experience.

    I guess I find it similar to "innocent until proven guilty" which is another ideal that humans just can't quite achieve.
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    Sep 12, 2007 5:45 PM GMT
    fastprof, I cannot speak like someone that I am not, and I do not attempt to assume that I understand what people of other faiths/cultures are thinking or doing. However, I DO know that virtually every major charity endeavor undertaken is either managed by, supported by, or comes from Christian groups and nations. If you are going to try to deny the thousands of schools, hospitals, clinics, shelters, relief agencies, mission workers, and other Christian undertakings that benefit millions in the first, second, and third worlds, then you simply don't realize the kind of work that Christians are doing. If you know of a group of people who have done MORE charity/goodwill work, then I'd be interested to know about them.

    You said "Christians have devoted as much or more time, energy, money and hate to demonize those who do not "believe", suppression of enemies..." I would say that you have spoken like someone who either does not realize the scope of Christianity, or wishes to demonize and oversimplify it in a unfair and dishonest way. For someone who dislikes "personal opinions" and wants to see the "money," I would challenge YOU to back up your claims with fact. I hope you can.
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    Sep 12, 2007 5:53 PM GMT
    Wow. Cool. I love John 4:20...on so many levels. ;-)

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    Sep 12, 2007 6:15 PM GMT
    I wonder how many christian missionary groups are willing to aid the needy without actually trying to influence them to convert to christianity? I just wonder, is all.

    Still, I keep running this image through my head: Missionary shows up in a poor Honduran village, happy meal in one hand, bible in the other. "Want this kid? Then read this."

    Someone correct my assumptions please (with more than anecdotal evidence).

    ...

    20 years old, can't make out the face in the profile, "conservative", self-proclaimed sinner, small town midwest, "christianity is #1".

    We've seen this before, fellas.
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    Sep 12, 2007 6:29 PM GMT
    See, this is EXACTLY why I dance naked in the woods around bonfires and worship the moon.

    You're all crazy.
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    Sep 12, 2007 6:51 PM GMT
    If I were to accept that christianity is responsible for more charity work than any other religion, absent of actual proof, then I might also accept the following (emphasis on might):

    Christianity is responsible for more...

    - incidences of child molestation
    - lynchings of african americans
    - child molestation incidents
    - genocide
    - teen suicide
    - costly wars

    ...than any other religion.

    So maybe christianity is just really really big, and therefore comes first in a number of categories, good and bad. A well heeled PR corps helps too, at least on the "we are good" side.

    So much charity work goes unclassified, because it isn’t attached to a specific religion. Many folks don't need to pin a religious badge to a check or to volunteer work. They just do it without ulterior motive, or at least the need to attribute credit to something that has little to do with the actual beneficiary.

    I know countless Christian, "out", gay men who have matured enough to be able to resolve their religion with their sexuality. These guys don't typically accept, in whole, what was fed to them, but rather adapt christianity to their own life experience. Their ability to grasp the complexities of all this and not speak in absolutes is very impressive. To me, that shows a stronger sense of spirituality and indicates a true soul. Kinda hot, actually.
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    Sep 12, 2007 6:52 PM GMT
    "We've seen this before, fellas..."

    Seen WHAT before? If you have something to say to me, come out and SAY it! Don't try to be cute with your little "implied messages." Basic respect is all I ask.
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    Sep 12, 2007 6:57 PM GMT
    Sign me up, Crimthann.
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    Sep 12, 2007 7:18 PM GMT
    twisterguy said: "...You said "Christians have devoted as much or more time, energy, money and hate to demonize those who do not "believe", suppression of enemies..."

    You've just proved my point. I didn't say that.

    I said "I might say..." implying that someone can spout an undocumented, unproven assumption or belief as fact in the hopes of making it sound like a statement of proven fact in the discussion of an issue.

    It's something I or anyone might say, but it's also something I wouldn't say, at least I wouldn't say it in that way.

    What I would say is that there are instances of cruelity, depravity etc. done in the name of Christianity, just as there are instances of kindness, charity, and loving behavior done in the name of Christianity.

    What I would never say, is what you said...and I note I'm not the only one who was struck by your couching a belief...basically a sweeping generalization grounded in your religious fervor, as opposed to being grounded in hard statistics...as a proven fact.
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    Sep 12, 2007 7:21 PM GMT
    The potential flame war between ruggeratx and twistermind20 has been moved to email.

    Carry on.
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    Sep 12, 2007 7:22 PM GMT
    I'm bowing out too. I have said my piece....

    John
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    Sep 12, 2007 7:38 PM GMT
    Back in my closeted days, during which I was heavily immersed in fundamentalist Christian ideology, I probably would have sided with twisterguy. Now that I'm out, older and hopefully wiser, I am more attuned the condescension implied by such phrases.

    On the other hand, what is with all the Christian bashing within the gay community? Are we so threatened by the dogma and rhetoric that we must engage in hatefulness, ourselves? Would taking the high road effectively "lump burning embers" upon our 'enemies', thereby making a much stronger statement and a more lasting impact on the debate?
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    Sep 12, 2007 7:48 PM GMT
    agreed ruck_us
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    Sep 12, 2007 8:04 PM GMT
    Indeed, well spoken, ruck us!

    Sad to see that too many of us, as a community who have so often been verbally "bashed" find it somehow okay to engage in the same generalizing forms of speech about others. Seems like the same "An eye for an eye..." approach that the biblical fundies espouse, just in different clothing.
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    Sep 12, 2007 8:21 PM GMT
    I think it has been more or less said already. When a group, especially an extrememly powerful one, attempts to marginalize a segment of society because of something that members of that segment cannot change, push-back is needed. This is not intolerance, it is survival. I don't know any gay folks who are trying to abolish Christianity, but I know plenty of Christian folks who are trying to abolish homosexuality.

    I would love for more gay Chrstians to speak up, and not just to the rest of us gays about the virtues of Christianity (and there are countless ones). I would love for them to be real men, and engage other, less tolerant Christians in the conversation. After all, you are in a unique position that can cause real change. How many of you gay Christians are actively doing THAT?

    Lemme know.
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    Sep 12, 2007 8:33 PM GMT
    Rugger:

    First of all, I do not consider myself a Christian, but I am familiar with much Christian teaching.

    Secondly, while I can't give you exact "head count" numbers, I can assure you that within just about every major Christian denomination, there are groups of gay men and lesbians who refuse to be driven out of their churches, who DO address their larger, respective communities. Maybe you aren't aware of it, but they are speaking to the very people you wish they would speak to. But I know from speaking with them that they fel no support from the larger gay community sometimes, and they feel they are lumped together with all christians, as if it were a monolithic entity. A little respect and understanding on the part of all individuals would go a long way in this hurting world.
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    Sep 12, 2007 8:42 PM GMT
    Very insightful comment, ruck. I have experienced far more discrimination from gay men for being a Christian than I ever have the other way around. Mind you, I am Episcopalian, so being gay is not an issue for anyone in my church. Being a devout Christian DOES rub many gay men the wrong way, which leaves me scratching my head. I get that we have been demonized and persecuted, but not by Jesus himself, so why dismiss His message?
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    Sep 12, 2007 8:42 PM GMT
    Thanks DenveRyk. That is awesome to hear. Things are changing. Maybe they're changing too fast for some gay guys who just aren't ready, but it's happening.

    I actually get accused by other gay guys of being too tolerant of Christians. But it's a huge and very nuanced religion. What's unfortunate is that their loudest voices are often their least tolerant ones, thus the bad rap and emotional resistance. It takes a second thought to get past that and into the

    ...heh...I keep forgetting...I'm technically a Christian. But since my church is already on-board, I choose rugby as my way of changing minds (well, and it's an addictive sport). Road games in Midland, TX used to scare the crap out of me. Now there are guys in fundamentalist/Bush/oil-country Midland who's minds have changed. I may, embarassingly enough, be a boy in lots of ways, but I've hardly felt like more of a man than when I brought my homo ass to their pitch.

    We've all got opportunities everywhere to change this country. Who else is doing what?
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    Sep 12, 2007 8:45 PM GMT
    sorry...one thought got cut off

    It takes a second thought to get past that and
    into the experience on a human level. I've been guilty of it sometimes.
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    Sep 12, 2007 8:50 PM GMT
    how can any gay man classify themselves as religious or Christian when none of these religions accept homosexuality other than to preach redemption at a poor lost soul!

    Religion has done more harm in this world than it has ever done good, no one can deny the mass genocide committed over the millenia in the name of the cross