"Hate the sin not the sinner".....

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    Sep 15, 2007 5:29 PM GMT
    Excellent post Leonvii.
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    Sep 15, 2007 6:38 PM GMT
    Leonvi: "...This is an example of how Christian catch phrases, "esoteric codes" or "God talk" can be misleading to followers of Christ who use them assuming people know what we mean..."

    Yes, it can be misleading, especially since "sin" is open to interpretation and many Christians (and followers of other religions too) allow themselves the luxury of making what other people do sinful, but exempt themselves, conveniently, so that they can still claim to be followers of the respective religion.
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    Sep 15, 2007 7:09 PM GMT
    NNJ and anyone else, that's completely understandable. =) Yes, since I'm speaking in a public forum, my words may seem completely impersonal to many of you. I won't know what anyone infer from my words and its connotations you may have of them. I don't have the luxury to compensate myself or hear your personal views (about anything)at a household level. Anyways, I joined this site merely because I've been enjoying reading and observing the many perspectives shared in these forums. Sorry, if I seemed to be invasive. I'm not here to "fix" anyone and I try my best to listen.

    fastprof, lol, especially shouting these catchy phrases/words in public is very disrespectful and insensitive to others.
  • MikeW

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    Mar 24, 2014 5:20 PM GMT
    jarhead5536 saidVery insightful comment, ruck. I have experienced far more discrimination from gay men for being a Christian than I ever have the other way around. Mind you, I am Episcopalian, so being gay is not an issue for anyone in my church. Being a devout Christian DOES rub many gay men the wrong way, which leaves me scratching my head. I get that we have been demonized and persecuted, but not by Jesus himself, so why dismiss His message?

    In light of recent threads, I think this is an interesting question, worth quoting from seven years ago and asking contemporary RJ what they think.

    It's true, I have VERY LITTLE PATIENCE for people who profess to be Christians, especially gay ones. I feel the same way about gay Republicans. To me, it is an oxymoron.

    I *admit* this is a form of prejudice but the intensity of hurt and anger I feel is palpable. I find it almost impossible to "forgive" or "look beyond" these life-style CHOICES.
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    Mar 24, 2014 6:25 PM GMT
    Sadly those people who profess to be Christians, but then behave counter to the teachings of Christ do tend to ruin things for all the others.

    I wouldn't hold faith in Christianity against anyone - however, I would hold them acting in un-Christian manner against them, if they claim to be Christian.


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    Mar 24, 2014 6:38 PM GMT
    I have so much to say about this topic. I was brain washed for 4 years by a non denominational church and was convinced to spend my first year of college at a biblical university.... BTW, most gay sex of my life! True story!.... The stirring and negative anger that I felt towards christians and Christianity ( I use those terms as in todays' christians and christianity..) when I got better; meaning stopped associating myself with them. The anger never stretched to God or Christ though. I can't bare to call myself a christian, though I do have a faith. I am spiritual, and now God is a higher power that is neither male nor female and resonates worlds outside of the bible to me..... the bible does have some good wisdom in there... it also has some bullshit too. In Bible college I learned a lot about Saul/Paul (the last apostle) and everyone's favorite. If you look at Paul's writings versus everyone else's he's style is different. It's aggressive and hateful. Christians today love him for his passionate attitude towards the sinners, but in reality, its just hate hidden by righteousness. what knocked me back into myself after a four year vacation from free-thinking, was Paul's story... never knew he was born so long after Jesus had died... I never knew that he was alone when Jesus came to him and dubbed him a new apostle... And I never knew how much of a sanctuary Saul/Paul needed when Jesus came to him..... PS: At that point Jesus' next return meant the end times had come.... I guess he forgot to mention he was gonna make a quick trip before hand that wouldn't bring about the end times so that he could make another apostle by restoring his vision. Oh Jeez I'm rambling... Anyway, that and all the hot christian freshmen boys in my dorm that would come to my room and blow me kinda made me think that today's Christianity is a crock of fear mongering bullshit.... Just my opinion though, no offense to anyone who isn't there yet.
  • MikeW

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    Mar 24, 2014 6:52 PM GMT
    MK1220 saidI have so much to say about this topic….
    And rather well said, too, if a bit rambling…which I don't mind at all being a master of shaggy dogs myself.

    Paul is an interesting character. Are you familiar with, The Gnostic Paul: Gnostic Exegesis of the Pauline Letters? The idea that Paul may have been a secret (esoteric) gnostic is fascinating and puts everything in yet another light. But, then, I'm of the opinion that Christ, himself, was, if not a Gnostic exactly, a member of an esoteric brotherhood. Thus *all of Christianity* as it has come down to us, as an EXoteric tradition, has it wrong. It was never a matter of "belief" or "faith" but, rather, as Paul himself said, having (quite literally) "the mind of Christ".

    Also, have you read William James The Variety of Religious Experience? I highly recommend it.

    Lots to think about around this subject.

    My family was born again but we attended different protestant churches. I often tell the story how the First Baptist Church burned to the ground *on the day I was to have been baptized*. True story. Originally I was to have been baptized with my peers on Easter Sunday but I had the measles. So, when I'd recovered, they had a special baptism just for me. I watched the church turn into a total conflagration, complete with the steeple falling into the naive amidst billows of sparks and black smoke. icon_twisted.gif
  • CecilWitte

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    Mar 24, 2014 6:55 PM GMT
    It is not reconciliation. It is basically treating us like alcoholics or drug addicts. Still presumes that our sexuality isn't normal. Condescending.
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    Mar 24, 2014 6:56 PM GMT
    depends if the sin involves a victim or not
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    Mar 24, 2014 7:02 PM GMT
    MikeW said
    jarhead5536 saidVery insightful comment, ruck. I have experienced far more discrimination from gay men for being a Christian than I ever have the other way around. Mind you, I am Episcopalian, so being gay is not an issue for anyone in my church. Being a devout Christian DOES rub many gay men the wrong way, which leaves me scratching my head. I get that we have been demonized and persecuted, but not by Jesus himself, so why dismiss His message?

    In light of recent threads, I think this is an interesting question, worth quoting from seven years ago and asking contemporary RJ what they think.

    It's true, I have VERY LITTLE PATIENCE for people who profess to be Christians, especially gay ones. I feel the same way about gay Republicans. To me, it is an oxymoron.

    I *admit* this is a form of prejudice but the intensity of hurt and anger I feel is palpable. I find it almost impossible to "forgive" or "look beyond" these life-style CHOICES.


    I am a Christian and there is nothing wrong with being one I have made my peace with my religion.
  • Destinharbor

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    Mar 24, 2014 7:10 PM GMT
    People are brainwashed at an early age to buy into many things, often the most passionate one being religion. It "feels" right to be a believer because they've been hardwired in their early years and they mistake this for a God. The other most obvious example of this is the "feeling" of Home, home the place, home the scenery. I mean, how could anyone think wistfully about "Sweet Home Alabama. Where the skies are so blue." Or any of many horrible places that people wish to return to. Afghanistan. Their brains were hardwired from birth.

    So it takes some soul shaking revelation to make you wake up and see what nonsense religion is but once you're awake, you realize what evil is done by the whole construct. That it is the intellectual defender of most cruelty throughout history. Since for us it is highly personal, it has been aimed directly at us, it evokes anger. And it becomes intolerable to tolerate those who defend and add their name and resources to maintain that evil.

    I, too, was raised an Episcopalian and while that sect is probably one of the least offensive, it still provides cover for a lot of evil. About half of all Episcopalians still oppose us and the international Anglican church shelters the barbarian sects in Africa.

    So churches may come around to us in time but probably mostly to protect their gold. I have little time for people who love to hate. If they decide to stop hating us, they'll fine someone else to hate and persecute.

    Same with Republicans. They don't even have an excuse. Gay Republicans are just mentally lazy. And maybe sometimes a bit self-loathing.
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    Mar 24, 2014 8:28 PM GMT
    lawkan said
    MikeW said
    jarhead5536 saidVery insightful comment, ruck. I have experienced far more discrimination from gay men for being a Christian than I ever have the other way around. Mind you, I am Episcopalian, so being gay is not an issue for anyone in my church. Being a devout Christian DOES rub many gay men the wrong way, which leaves me scratching my head. I get that we have been demonized and persecuted, but not by Jesus himself, so why dismiss His message?

    In light of recent threads, I think this is an interesting question, worth quoting from seven years ago and asking contemporary RJ what they think.

    It's true, I have VERY LITTLE PATIENCE for people who profess to be Christians, especially gay ones. I feel the same way about gay Republicans. To me, it is an oxymoron.

    I *admit* this is a form of prejudice but the intensity of hurt and anger I feel is palpable. I find it almost impossible to "forgive" or "look beyond" these life-style CHOICES.


    I am a Christian and there is nothing wrong with being one I have made my peace with my religion.


    Well that all depends on what you mean by "christian"... If you mean follower of Christ as the origins of the word were intended, then I would agree with your OPINION that there is nothing wrong with being a christian. Christ was a cool dude and he had lots of really good stuff to say... However, if you mean to use "christian" in the second-rate term which is what we typically see of people who actively claim that word without a need to explain themselves in today's world, then I feel sorry for you. It wouldn't surprise me if your eyes have been made to be closed tight while you are surrounded by a coven of vipers. All the while easing the guilt of never being good enough only by looking on at others with "righteous" condemnation.....
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    Mar 24, 2014 8:29 PM GMT
    Sorry guys I can't be on this forum.
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    Mar 24, 2014 8:44 PM GMT
    MK1220 saidChrist was a cool dude and he had lots of really good stuff to say.

    We don't know that. Everything that's in the New Testament was written at least 70 years after his life, so it's entirely legend and word of mouth.
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    Mar 24, 2014 8:54 PM GMT
    I've always suspected it's a way for the more "mildly homophobic" (for lack of a better term) Christians, who actually have a conscience, to reconcile their indoctrinated beliefs with a bigotry they personally find distasteful and would rather not carry. From my own understanding of human nature, optimistically, it's a hard-core Christian's way (albeit half-assed) to find a halfway ground between gay acceptance and the hard-core religious homicidally violent homophobia that says GOD HATES FAGS.
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    Mar 24, 2014 10:28 PM GMT
    MK1220 saidSorry guys I can't be on this forum.

    I feel the same but I have no place to go.
    There's way too much gays hating gays here for being a little different.
    Then we all cry about not being accepted by the straight world when we refuse to accept each other.
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    Mar 24, 2014 10:31 PM GMT
    Lumpyoatmeal said
    MK1220 saidChrist was a cool dude and he had lots of really good stuff to say.

    We don't know that. Everything that's in the New Testament was written at least 70 years after his life, so it's entirely legend and word of mouth.

    Oh, for heaven's sake.
    If you want to be cynical, it can be argued nobody really knows anything about the past.
    History is a myth agreed upon.
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    Mar 24, 2014 10:49 PM GMT
    I really hate that my brain rolls faster than my fingers can type, and my thoughts go in multiple directions on this topic.

    I try to live my life by what I learned about Jesus. I also include Buddha, Lao Tzu, Gandhi, Francis of Assisi, Rochefoucauld, Wilde, Crisp...all people I've learned something about being human, trying to make this time a bit better.

    I totally get why gay people hate Chritianity. Religion is just another form of mental manipulation and control. Rejecting religion because of its cruelty, when it professes love and acceptance makes sense.

    I think rejecting the teachings of Jesus or others because of Westboro, Pat Robertson, Jim Jones, Pope Leo, Crusaders, etc. really is sad.

    I get it though.
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    Mar 24, 2014 11:04 PM GMT
    JohnSpotter said
    MK1220 saidSorry guys I can't be on this forum.

    I feel the same but I have no place to go.
    There's way too much gays hating gays here for being a little different.
    Then we all cry about not being accepted by the straight world when we refuse to accept each other.


    Well then perhaps we should start a forum about gays hating gays... Anyone who knows me knows that thats my bailiwick.... but perhaps not discuss it on this thread as this pertains to the concept of hating the sin and loving the sinner... WHICH, given my expertise on the matter, it has been my observation that that phrase is used often when leaders are looking to morally reign their flock in a bit and meet them halfway by saying

    "Hey, I like where you're heads are at... lighting gays on fire and all... but Jesus tells us to love our enemies so lets maybe not light those faggots on fire -out of devine love from Jesus of course- and lets try to bring them to the light by making them feel guilty about their sodomizing ways until they change and act just like us! Here come with me, I can show you some really fantastic ways to use fear for HIS righteousness. Say, I have a great idea, why don't we do this with our shirts off!? Okay? Gooooooooo Jesus!!!!"
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    Mar 24, 2014 11:06 PM GMT
    MK1220 said
    JohnSpotter said
    MK1220 saidSorry guys I can't be on this forum.

    I feel the same but I have no place to go.
    There's way too much gays hating gays here for being a little different.
    Then we all cry about not being accepted by the straight world when we refuse to accept each other.


    Well then perhaps we should start a forum about gays hating gays... Anyone who knows me knows that thats my bailiwick.... but perhaps not discuss it on this thread as this pertains to the concept of hating the sin and loving the sinner... WHICH, given my expertise on the matter, it has been my observation that that phrase is used often when leaders are looking to morally reign their flock in a bit and meet them halfway by saying

    "Hey, I like where you're heads are at... lighting gays on fire and all... but Jesus tells us to love our enemies so lets maybe not light those faggots on fire -out of devine love from Jesus of course- and lets try to bring them to the light by making them feel guilty about their sodomizing ways until they change and act just like us! Here come with me, I can show you some really fantastic ways to use fear for HIS righteousness. Say, I have a great idea, why don't we do this with our shirts off!? Okay? Gooooooooo Jesus!!!!"


    I could be bitter....
  • 1AlanZSky

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    Mar 24, 2014 11:07 PM GMT
    It's an oxymoron. The sinner sins. You cannot hate one without the other.
  • MikeW

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    Mar 24, 2014 11:19 PM GMT
    AlanZSky saidIt's an oxymoron. The sinner sins. You cannot hate one without the other.

    Agree. To me the phrase "hate the sin not the sinner" is self-righteous bull shit. It says, "I know what sin is," and "I can choose to love you *despite* what you do." People who say such things are lying to themselves, masking their true feelings of hate and fear with dissembling pablums.
  • MikeW

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    Mar 24, 2014 11:21 PM GMT
    MK1220 said...perhaps we should start a forum about gays hating gays...

    Go for it.
  • MikeW

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    Mar 24, 2014 11:21 PM GMT
    MK1220 saidI could be bitter....

    I know I am.
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    Mar 24, 2014 11:26 PM GMT
    Jesus loved and accepted who the "righteous" rejected. The woman caught in sin was told to go and sin no more. Christians say God will forgive our gay "sin" if we stay celibate. I see the SIN that woman committed as degrading her own dignity. We are meant to be who we are.
    Gay men are what we are. I think as long as we aren't humping every guy in sight, selling ourselves, disrespecting ourselves, we are good with God. We exist, we persist, we are part of the master plan.

    Some people cannot accept the Bible, all religion, as a metaphor. Shit, Lord of the Rings, Superman, Harry fucking Potter, Snow White...all have something to teach us. Great stories, adventures, dramatic events that make us go hmmmm. Old Testament, Jesus' Parables...hmmm.

    Life is so complicated, scary, dangerous, confusing and we need reassurance in the face of it all. People write to comment on human truths. The more lost and fearful a person is, the more tightly they cling to ANYTHING that gives them comfort, reassurance and confidence in the face of a brutal fucking world.
    Homosexuality is one if those scary questions for some. Fear is the seed of hatred, and as we've seen, some of the worst 'phobes out there were self loathing gays.

    Fear sucks!

    "Love can move mountains"
    - Celine Dion