"Hate the sin not the sinner".....

  • MikeW

    Posts: 6083

    Mar 25, 2014 12:58 AM GMT
    JohnSpotter said
    MikeW said
    JohnSpotter said@Mike - Okay, so change it to the child being disobedient which is against one of the commandments. Does that work?

    No, not for me. What child is *not* disobedient? And thank heavens for it. Because, you know, *authority*, including parents, is NOT alway right.
    That's entirely beside the point. You asked for a religious reference and I gave it to you. Parents often hate how their teens are acting but they don't hate the teens.
    If you thought I was asking for a religious reference, you may have misunderstood me.

    As for parents hating what teens do and not hating their children… this is a bit arguable. Do they in fact HATE what they do? As in, such intensity of feeling that they want to utterly destroy it? Or do they just dislike it or feel burdened by it or what have you? This, to me, is not "hate". HATE is something absolute, 100% anathema. It is far more than even intense dislike.

    And, to be clear, not all parents love their children. I've seen instances where parents began to actually hate their teenagers … although, in my view, that hatred was already there under the surface and may be a large reason why the teen began to 'act out' in ways that eventually led to the parent revealing their true feelings.
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    Mar 25, 2014 1:04 AM GMT
    Believe me, I've spoken to plenty of parents who HATE how their teens are acting and are crushed by it because they love them so.

    Not that it matters much but you asked for a religious connection when you wrote "I wouldn't insinuate that his breaking the dishes was an affront to nature and God Himself." So I made another example.
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    Mar 25, 2014 1:06 AM GMT
    MK1220 saidOk boys stand back because Pastor MK is about to break this all down for ya'll.... it'll take a few I haven't been in the christian mix in quite some time, but when you read this, I will be channeling my past so I need you to read my next post while imagining me with a southern accent and a vacant look in my eyes.



    So let's talk bout sin see..... From what I read in recent posts on the pondering of sin, I think your think'in too micro-like. See the bible lays out sin so wonderfully that you don't even need to think too much about it see. lets consider the 7 deadlies.... we got, gluttony, lust, sloth, anger, greed, eny, and PRIDE. I capitalized pride because the Bible says that the greatest of these is Pride. I take that to mean the Pride trumps all these sins... From my own life, watching others flounder in the nasty unrighteousness of the heathen life I have seen first witness to the fact that all six of these sins extend from pride one way or another... Pride, being the greatest isn't just begin boastful ya see.... it's about the glory and the honor of thine own-self over the Lord almighty. Its about look'in out for number one; number one being ourselves and NOT Jesus. See when before Adam and Eve ate that forbid fruit, their whole attention was on God, they didn't even realize they were naked. When they disobeyed God, They were in Sin and were able to see that they were in fact Naked. They also had to leave the garden..... Think about that for a second cause thats important....

    So sin is manifested through deeds and actions, we can choose to sin or not. but thats just behaviors.... the thing is see, Sin itself is the absence of God. Liv'in in sin, is liv'in in without God. I got news for ya'll. well.... I got good news and bad news....

    The bad news is that Human beins, with the exception of Christ, have been liven in sin sin adam and eve were kick out of the garden. The garden see, holds the presence of God. They disobeyed and therefore removed God from their being. The bible calls it a lifting of the veil, or the knowledge of good and evil. See before they sinned, they only knew God, but they didn't have a sense that God was good. It was until after they lost him that they gain the knowledge of good and evil. Distance makes the heart grow fonder they say, and Adam had over 900 year to vouch for that one! Now the really bad news is that the Bible says the wages of sin is death. Since God is life and sin that we are now born into is the absence of God, then death and sin are words cosmically interchangeable. We are born dying. Which was not the plan.

    Now the good news.... is JESUS!

    See, Jesus was the only human being begotten by God (other than Adam). which means he essentially had the opportunity to have eternal life they way Adam and his descendants we planned to have. However, it was Jesus' love for His Father's children that allowed Jesus to make a blood sacrifice of himself to cover the sins of all God children. That who ever believes in him shall not perish, but have eternal life!

    So sin you see, isn't something that you just do sir. every second of your hearts beat, you are sinning. You are in sin. Jesus was not in sin which is why he had the abilities of his father. To walk on water, transmute water to wine, feed thousands with five fish and some bread... and my personal favorite, creat a rip hole in the timespace continuum and transfigure himself to communicate with TWO prophets from the far past.... Can you do that? No? then you are in sin, and desperately need the blood of christ to cover those sins so you can be with the Father.

    so In closing.... do not think of the sin as a behavior but as a citizenship in a desolate country... Jesus' blood is your passport.
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    Mar 25, 2014 1:11 AM GMT
    ^See guys... now you now why we should love the... er... what were we talking about again?
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    Mar 25, 2014 1:16 AM GMT
    Ugh, I feel so dirty.... don't make me do that again... I know Im gonna have some weirdo PTSD dreams tonight.
  • MikeW

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    Mar 25, 2014 1:21 AM GMT
    Our exegesis is compatible MK. Sin is a state of consciousness within which we do not experience our own sacred relation to what is called "God".

    The mythology in Genesis, however, is not very helpful without some kind of footnoting. Eternal gardens of splendor inhabited by naked humans, devious serpents and bountiful trees with fruits we're not to eat of.. and how is it that being naked is to be regarded as something for which one understandably feels guilty when one realizes one is naked? WHAT THE FUCK ISN'T NAKED? The sun, moon and stars are naked; all the animals are naked; I assume God Himself is naked. So, it isn't the nakedness that is the issue, it is that feeling of 'guilt' of 'having sinned against God' that leads to shame. And, indeed, to loose sight of one's own sacred essence is shameful. But how, exactly, EXACTLY, does that work? Because I assure you, it isn't through eating fruits proffered by beguiling reptiles. THAT is a metaphor.
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    Mar 25, 2014 1:21 AM GMT
    MK1220 saidUgh, I feel so dirty.... don't make me do that again... I know Im gonna have some weirdo PTSD dreams tonight.


    td-jakes-tyler-perry.jpg

    Be HAIL-dah!!!
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    Mar 25, 2014 1:33 AM GMT
    Paradigm_Shift saidWhat do you think about this popular Christian saying?

    Is this the first step towards reconciliation between two communities or just another way to express the first word, "Hate"?


    I heard this several times from my half brother and other family...all of who are obese...I got tried of it and said "I hate the fat slob but I love you". It pissed them off, but since then I have not heard it again.

    I personally think it is very passive aggressive to say "Hate the sin but love the sinner".

    I never understand why it isn't used for all the adulteress, divorcees, etc who attend church.
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    Mar 25, 2014 1:39 AM GMT
    "I never understand why it isn't used for all the adulteress, divorcees, etc who attend church."

    It is.
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    Mar 25, 2014 1:39 AM GMT
    MikeW saidOur exegesis is compatible MK. Sin is a state of consciousness within which we do not experience our own sacred relation to what is called "God".

    The mythology in Genesis, however, is not very helpful without some kind of footnoting. Eternal gardens of splendor inhabited by naked humans, devious serpents and bountiful trees with fruits we're not to eat of.. and how is it that being naked is to be regarded as something for which one understandably feels guilty when one realizes one is naked? WHAT THE FUCK ISN'T NAKED? The sun, moon and stars are naked; all the animals are naked; I assume God Himself is naked. So, it isn't the nakedness that is the issue, it is that feeling of 'guilt' of 'having sinned against God' that leads to shame. And, indeed, to loose sight of one's own sacred essence is shameful. But how, exactly, EXACTLY, does that work? Because I assure you, it isn't through eating fruits proffered by beguiling reptiles. THAT is a metaphor.


    Mike W, It was the disobedience. the thinking apart from God. I do not believe that it was the act of eating the fruit that brought sin into the world, it was the choice to separated from God
  • MikeW

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    Mar 25, 2014 1:53 AM GMT
    MK1220 saidMike W, It was the disobedience. the thinking apart from God. I do not believe that it was the act of eating the fruit that brought sin into the world, it was the choice to separated from God
    Of course it is metaphor but metaphor that begs the question…. If I am in a state of oneness with the divine nature of All, how do I become 'separate' from that such that I *can* "choose" to be "disobedient". If I am in a closed ontological system, where does the fracture in that system come from?

    (My point ultimately being, if not from the Divine nature itself? If I've got this correct, then the Hindus and Buddhists are more on-target here than the Abrahamic traditions.)
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    Mar 25, 2014 1:57 AM GMT
    MikeW said
    MK1220 saidMike W, It was the disobedience. the thinking apart from God. I do not believe that it was the act of eating the fruit that brought sin into the world, it was the choice to separated from God
    Of course it is metaphor but metaphor that begs the question…. If I am in a state of oneness with the divine nature of All, how do I become 'separate' from that such that I *can* "choose" to be "disobedient". If I am in a closed ontological system, where does the fracture in that system come from?

    (My point ultimately being, if not from the Divine nature itself? If I've got this correct, then the Hindus and Buddhists are more on-target here than the Abrahamic traditions.)


    And I don't like talking about this anymore.... Im done. I am going to commit some sodomy to get the taste of my christian past out of my mouth.... Which ironically also sometimes tasted like sodomy... lol. Bible college wasn't all bad know what I'm saying! ;-)
  • MikeW

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    Mar 25, 2014 2:03 AM GMT
    MK1220 saidBible college wasn't all bad know what I'm saying! ;-)

    I can ONLY imagine icon_twisted.gificon_razz.gificon_twisted.gif

    In that moment, though, right there at that erotic precipice where one looses control and orgasm becomes inevitable, unstoppable, in that moment is the whole thing; the whole of Genesis. Tree in the midst of the garden yielding his tasty fruit and all icon_razz.gif
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    Mar 25, 2014 2:07 AM GMT
    The whole concept of "sin" is alien. There can be no sin if there's no invisible friend in the sky. There is, however, inexcusable behavior and Bad Taste.
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    Mar 25, 2014 2:23 AM GMT
    Insofar as this phrase is often used against gays, I hate neither our sin nor my fellow sinners. What I hate is our bigoted accusers.
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    Mar 25, 2014 2:30 AM GMT
    Sharkadelic saidThe whole concept of "sin" is alien. There can be no sin if there's no invisible friend in the sky. There is, however, inexcusable behavior and Bad Taste.

    Or, as George Hamilton says in his epic Zorro, the Gay Blade:

    "Remember my people, there is no shame in being poor, only dressing poorly."